Who will be the chump

[Napoleon]

Who will finish last this year in F1. This assumes a driver who drives the entire year. This is based on points, and should he tie for last with no points, based on average finishing position vis-a-vis those with no points.

The poll will close in 3 days.

[Napoleon]

OK, 'fess up. Which 2 of you voted for R. Schumacher?

[mapguy]

Wasn't me. Although I have to admit that he was my second choice. :D

[Dr. Corkski]

Firman should cake walk this category. Though it wouldn't surprise me to see da Matta give him competition until he gets replaced by Zonta. Following the Andretti-Villeneuve-Zanardi-Montoya trend it doesn't look good for da Matta.

Whoever voted for Alonso needs help.

[rabbit]

Originally posted by Dr. Zhivago
Though it wouldn't surprise me to see da Matta give him competition until he gets replaced by Zonta. Following the Andretti-Villeneuve-Zanardi-Montoya trend it doesn't look good for da Matta.
:confused: What "Andretti-Villeneuve-Zanardi-Montoya trend"????

Andretti - struggles in only season in F1
Villeneuve - finishes second in WDC as rookie and wins WDC in second year. Williams builds a lemon and Villeneuve makes unfortunate career choice
Zanardi - struggles
Montoya - wins a GP in his rookie year. Has proven to be the only driver with a remote shot at knocking off the Chin.

That's not a trend.

Oh, and BTW, I voted for Ralphie too. ;) :p

[Dr. Corkski]

Originally posted by rabbit
Montoya - wins a GP in his rookie year. Has proven to be the only driver with a remote shot at knocking off the Chin.Raikkonen?


Originally posted by rabbit
That's not a trend.Yes it is.


Originally posted by rabbit
Oh, and BTW, I voted for Ralphie too. ;) :p Firman? ;)

[mapguy]

Originally posted by Dr. Zhivago

Firman? ;)

No, the gay one. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by Napoleon
OK, 'fess up. Which 2 of you voted for R. Schumacher?

I did.

He, like Coulthard, doesn't have "it". Good driver, but not WDC material.

He's Fisichella with better management. (Fisi should really can his manager...)

For what Williams pays him, you'd think they'd get more from Ralf... only win last season was a gift from the stewards...

His brother intimidates him. When your brother is the guy to beat, this is a bad sign. Witness the start when Michael ran him to the wall. Ralf defers to Michael.

Remember Brazil last season? Kimi or JPM would have, at least, TRIED to win. Ralf didn't. Just cruised around, content to finish second. Ralf, again, defers to Michael.

He also loses his cool when his teammate is doing better than him. Witness the refusal to move over for Juan when the team asks him, losing his cool and taking both of them out of the race at the USGP...

Also witness how his performance dropped off towards the end of 2000 when Button started doing better than he was.

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by rabbit
Villeneuve - finishes second in WDC as rookie and wins WDC in second year. Williams builds a lemon and Villeneuve makes unfortunate career choice


Most F1 drivers could have won the title in the 1996-1997 Williams car... it was just that good.

In my mind, the two WDC's I regard the least in the last 15 years are Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve.

List of WDC's (http://www.f1-grandprix.com/champs.html)

[mapguy]

Originally posted by mnkywrch
In my mind, the two WDC's I regard the least in the last 15 years are Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve.


1996
I beg to differ on Jacques Villeneuve. Here's why:

1. Putting his car on the pole in his first GP ever.

2. Winning in only his fourth GP ever.

3. His pass of the chin on the outside at Estoril.

4. Putting his car on the pole at Spa in his first time there.

5. Taking the title fight to the last race.

1997

1. Putting his car on pole at the first race by 1.7 seconds over the next quickest car. Who happened to be his teammate.

2. His audacious pass of the chin. Would have been more impressive if the dirty, cheating bastard didn't try and punt him.

1998

1. Two podium positions in a car powered by a Meccachrome.

He made a bad decision to go to BAR. Since then he has had to drive cars that are absolute pigs. When the car is even close to right he'll haul it up there. Witness Austria last year.

Nigel Roebuck states that JV is the only guy on the grid that the dirty, cheating bastard is afraid of. That is enough for me.

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by mapguy

He made a bad decision to go to BAR. Since then he has had to drive cars that are absolute pigs. When the car is even close to right he'll haul it up there. Witness Austria last year.

Nigel Roebuck states that JV is the only guy on the grid that the dirty, cheating bastard is afraid of. That is enough for me.

The cars have been pigs, but he hasn't exactly left Panis in the dust.

Which means either than Panis is one of the most underrated drivers on the grid, or that JV either doesn't have it or he can't get motivated. And for that amount of money, I'm sorry, but motivation should not be an issue.

I think you forgot something else - IIRC, wasn't 1998 the first year for grooved tires?

Maybe JV just can't adapt to grooves.

[mapguy]

Originally posted by mnkywrch
The cars have been pigs, but he hasn't exactly left Panis in the dust.

Which means either than Panis is one of the most underrated drivers on the grid, or that JV either doesn't have it or he can't get motivated. And for that amount of money, I'm sorry, but motivation should not be an issue.

I think you forgot something else - IIRC, wasn't 1998 the first year for grooved tires?

Maybe JV just can't adapt to grooves.

Regarding 1998. Yes it was the first year for grooved tires. If he had a Renault and got the results he did then I would agree. The Meccachrome was giving up at least 50hp (probably 100hp) to the factory teams. That is a big gap. Grooved tires or not.

Check the results of JV vs OP. JV outqualified Panis on average 11 to 6 in the years they teamed together. Also he scored more points and got the best results between the two of them.

Plus just watch JV when he is on the track. The commitment is still clearly there.

He's got a better record in the 'minors' than any other driver in F1 today. He also made a bigger 'splash' when he first came to F1 than the chin did.

He won the CART ROTY and Indy 500 ROTY with an off the shelf Reynard-Ford and the next year he went one better with the same customer stuff. The only superior equipment JV had in CART was the piece between the roll-hoop and the steering wheel.

He made a bad choice in BAR. Put him in a McLaren or a Williams and watch the dirty, cheating bastard sweat.

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by mapguy
Regarding 1998. Yes it was the first year for grooved tires. If he had a Renault and got the results he did then I would agree. The Meccachrome was giving up at least 50hp (probably 100hp) to the factory teams. That is a big gap. Grooved tires or not.

Check the results of JV vs OP. JV outqualified Panis on average 11 to 6 in the years they teamed together. Also he scored more points and got the best results between the two of them.

Plus just watch JV when he is on the track. The commitment is still clearly there.

He's got a better record in the 'minors' than any other driver in F1 today. He also made a bigger 'splash' when he first came to F1 than the chin did.

He won the CART ROTY and Indy 500 ROTY with an off the shelf Reynard-Ford and the next year he went one better with the same customer stuff. The only superior equipment JV had in CART was the piece between the roll-hoop and the steering wheel.

He made a bad choice in BAR. Put him in a McLaren or a Williams and watch the dirty, cheating bastard sweat.

As far as "splash" upon entering, JV made a bigger splash because he was in the best car on the grid.

MS made quite a splash at Spa in 1991, IIRC... in a Jordan. Ya know, hurling a bad car up the grid to a place where it doesn't belong. Qualifying in front of your teammate. In your first race, in the middle of the season. At Spa, no less.

I guess I rate that higher than JV's first race.

For whatever reason, I don't see that ability to put a car where it doens't belong in JV - and that's something I'd expect from a WDC.

I don't expect WDC's to get out-qualified by Minardi's.

If the car can do it, great; if not, oh well, I'll rip the team, call the car a tub of crap, and peddle around the rest of the season.

Right or wrong, that's my perception.

I checked his results in 1998 to his teammate, Heinz-Harald Frentzen.
JV: 21 points
HHF: 17 points

That's not exactly leveling your competition.

1999:
JV: 0
Zonta: 0

2000:
JV: 17
Zonta: 3

2001:
JV: 12
OP: 3

2002:
JV: 4
OP: 3

[mapguy]

As far as "splash" upon entering, JV made a bigger splash because he was in the best car on the grid. MS made quite a splash at Spa in 1991, IIRC... in a Jordan. Ya know, hurling a bad car up the grid to a place where it doesn't belong. Qualifying in front of your teammate. In your first race, in the middle of the season. At Spa, no less.


First of all. The Jordan was not a bad car at all. In fact it was probably one of the top three chassis that year. You must have forgotten that the chin's teammate, Andrea DeCrasharis, was realing in Senna in the closing stages of that same race before his engine let go. A Jordan-Ford realing in a McLaren-Honda driven by Senna. We sure know that the Honda was better than the Ford. So it wasn't the engine. Not only that Bertrand Gachot set the fastest race lap earlier that year at the Hungaroring. So the story that he had a bad car is not true at all. The chin flubbed the start and blew his clutch as a result. JV on the other hand had to deal with TWO standing starts and led convincingly from both. Losing the lead the first time during the pit stops, which he duly overtook Hill two turns after pit out on cold tires. He was forced to give up the lead when his engine started to lose oil pressure.

I can't imagine why you think that the chin had a bigger splash. He had one decent lap in qualies and that was it. JV put it on pole, led most laps. Passed his teammate on cold tires just two turns out of the pits and the only reason why he didn't win was his engine was going. It doesn't make sense at all.


For whatever reason, I don't see that ability to put a car where it doens't belong in JV - and that's something I'd expect from a WDC.

When was the last time you saw a WDC driving a BAR with a sorry excuse for an engine?


I checked his results in 1998 to his teammate, Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

How about the 1997 results? You know, the ones where JV won 7 races and the WDC? How many races did Frentzen win? I know what you are going to say so don't bother. The only team orders were in the last race of the year.

How many times has Frentzen been sacked?




That's not exactly leveling your competition.

1997?

Going by the points you listed below JV has outscored his teammates 33 to 9. Looks like he was leveling his teammates to me.

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by mapguy
Going by the points you listed below JV has outscored his teammates 33 to 9. Looks like he was leveling his teammates to me.

He levelled Zonta (that's like leveling Shiggy) and Panis & Frentzen in the first year of their partnership.

The second year both Panis & Frentzen gave basically the same results as JV.


When was the last time you saw a WDC driving a BAR with a sorry excuse for an engine?

I dunno, but I'd think a WDC would be able to help develop the car to the point where it wasn't a tub of %$&%.

BAR had to hire a guy (Panis) from another team because of his developmental abilities.

All JV does is trash the car when it doesn't suit him. Good job of leadership. Little wonder David Richards wants to get rid of him.

And how on earth is he going to get a McLaren/Ferrari/Williams seat with his salary demands? Of course, if he were truly hungry to win, I'd think he'd drive for free for any of those teams.

As far as first race impressions, I wonder how many more testing miles JV had before his first start compared to Schumi. I think Schumi had one test, and little experience in cars similar to F1 cars.

JV had, what, two years in CART when it was similar to F1, plus a full off-season of testing, plus he was in what was without a doubt the top car.

[mapguy]

He levelled Zonta (that's like leveling Shiggy)

Not even close. Didn't Zonta beat a certain JP Montoya for the F300 title a few years back? That comparison is rediculous. (sp)




I dunno, but I'd think a WDC would be able to help develop the car to the point where it wasn't a tub of %$&%.

If the car is a tub of **** from the get go there is nothing that a driver can do to develop it into a winner. Nothing. The only thing to do is to throw the car into the scrap heap and start all over again.


All JV does is trash the car when it doesn't suit him. Good job of leadership. Little wonder David Richards wants to get rid of him.

What do you mean it doesn't suit him? BAR has yet to produce a decent F1 car. A BAR wouldn't suit the chin. David Richards wants to get rid of JV, not for what he says about the car, but to get rid of his salary and also to get rid of all remnants of the previous BAR 'administration'. Richards has been slagging JV more than JV has been slagging the car.




As far as first race impressions, I wonder how many more testing miles JV had before his first start compared to Schumi. I think Schumi had one test, and little experience in cars similar to F1 cars.

Japanese F3000 and tons of miles in the Mercedes Group C program. He did a lot more miles in Grp C and Jpn F3000 than JV had in ChampCars.




JV had, what, two years in CART when it was similar to F1, plus a full off-season of testing, plus he was in what was without a doubt the top car.

I can't beleive you just said that. CART was hardly similar to F1 at that time. Not even close. That would be like saying a 1997 irl sled was similar to a 1997 ChampCar.

As for JV being in the top car. Remember, the top drivers tend to gravitate to the top cars for a reason. With the exception of Damon Hill.

[Dr. Corkski]

Originally posted by mapguy
Not even close. Didn't Zonta beat a certain JP Montoya for the F300 title a few years back? That comparison is rediculous. (sp)Yeah, but it was no secret that Pollock treated his skis better than Zonta.

Originally posted by mapguy
As for JV being in the top car. Remember, the top drivers tend to gravitate to the top cars for a reason. With the exception of Damon Hill. Well, the closest JV has gotten to a top car the last 2 years was when he was busy getting lapped. ;)