View Full Version : Penske to purchase Ilmore?
stroker
06-01-05, 06:57 PM
Robin Miller is reporting a rumor on Speed that FRP may be working to buy Ilmore. Unless I'm mistaken, they make the Honda mill. Could it be FRP is trying to do a KK/Cosworth?
Robin Miller is reporting a rumor on Speed that FRP may be working to buy Ilmore. Unless I'm mistaken, they make the Honda mill. Could it be FRP is trying to do a KK/Cosworth?
More Miller dumb stuff.
The last I heard FRP had sold about 75% of Ilmor to M-B...
More Miller dumb stuff.
The last I heard FRP had sold about 75% of Ilmor to M-B...
From Grandprix.com circa '99:
Mercedes-Benz is, however, integrally involved with Ilmor Engineering, which builds the company's V10 F1 engines. In fact Mercedes owns 25% of Ilmor. The Brixworth-based company was established in the early 1980s by former Cosworth engineers Mario Illien and Paul Morgan with financial backing from American entrepreneur Roger Penske. Penske owned 50% of the shares but sold half of that to Chevrolet. The result was that Ilmor built the highly-successful Chevrolet Indycar engine. When that programme ended Penske brokered a deal in which Chevrolet sold its share to Mercedes-Benz. Ilmor built Mercedes Indycar engines and then Formula 1 power units. Before the Mercedes deal Ilmor had run its F1 engines under the Ilmor V10s and Sauber V10s names.
I wouldn't put it past ol' Liver Spots to try to outmanuever KK and GF. Perhaps he's been inspired by The Danicle Factor? :gomer:
-Kevin
Robin Miller is reporting a rumor on Speed that FRP may be working to buy Ilmore. Unless I'm mistaken, they make the Honda mill. Could it be FRP is trying to do a KK/Cosworth?
This would complete the CARTII circle of life.
Start with stock engines and small teams --> Move to engine leases from large manuf's and factory teams ---> lose small teams --> lose engine manuf's and money --> buy engine company to supply field with spec engines.
Rinse and repeat.
Illmor builds the current Honda IRL engine. There's a rumor that 2007 will be Honda vs. Ford. Could that really be Penske vs. Kalkhoven?
Racing Truth
06-01-05, 08:25 PM
Illmor builds the current Honda IRL engine. There's a rumor that 2007 will be Honda vs. Ford. Could that really be Penske vs. Kalkhoven?
Interesting scenario to be sure.
Sean O'Gorman
06-01-05, 08:28 PM
I don't see Ford spending that kind of money to keep up with Honda.
Certainly some interesting timing if true and no wonder teams would get upset if the announcement was made prior to Indy. Let's see, everyone gets junky Honda motors while Roger gets all the latest tweaks.
Insomniac
06-01-05, 09:52 PM
So Honda stuck with Ilmor? I thought they were just going to be a one year stop gap for their first year.
Ozarkian
06-01-05, 10:02 PM
Let's see, everyone gets junky Honda motors while Roger gets all the latest tweaks.
Wonder what Mikey's thinking right about now?
Al Czervik
06-01-05, 10:04 PM
Can Ilmore US be separated from Ilmore UK?
Jag_Warrior
06-01-05, 10:19 PM
By what I've read, in December of 2004, Daimler-Chrysler owned 85% of Ilmor. By the end of 2005, DCX is to take the remaining shares of the company from Penske, Mario Illien and/or Elizabeth Morgan, and have 100% control and ownership.
What's the rumor? That they're going to spilt the company, sort of like Cosworth was, and let Penske have the IRL engine build side?
Wonder if the Cap'n will subsidize engines? Comical. Either pay Penske or figure out how to shoe-horn a Hendrick 358 V8 into the sleds - and you're gonna pay him too! :laugh:
ya, DCX began buying up extra shares prior to and immediately after Morgan's death, the first part I believe was their plan to have a bigger stake, which they obtained from Rog if I recall correctly, and then they were going to wrap up Morgan's shares upon his death to bring the outfit further "in-house," rather than a contracted engine boutique
stroker
06-02-05, 12:00 AM
Well, I'm not familiar with all the details, but I have to figure that if FRP wants to he can bring serious money to the table. What other engine mfgs are there out there that could serve the same function as his buying Ilmore? Judd, etc?
Penske vs. Daimler
I think I'll bet on Daimler :gomer:
From Reuters ....
Ilmor to be Owned by DaimlerChrysler
By Reuters
Thursday, 02 June 2005 10:42
Mercedes-run Ilmor, who build McLaren's Formula One engines, will be a 100 percent subsidiary of DaimlerChrysler by the end of September, Mercedes said on Thursday.
The British-based company will be renamed Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines. DaimlerChrysler, Mercedes' parent, took majority control of Ilmor in 2002.
Ilmor's Special Project Group division and the firm's 25 percent stake in Ilmor Engineering Inc., mainly focusing on engines for the U.S.-based Indy Racing League and NASCAR, will be sold to Penske Racing and Ilmor founder Mario Illien along with co-founder Paul Morgan's widow Elizabeth.
Ted
Winston Wolfe
06-02-05, 09:14 AM
Sweet find, Ted !
So now this seems to add an element of interest to the current Honda-badged \ Illmor prepared motors for the EARL....
RP suddenly brings himself to the forefront, does he not ?
Napoleon
06-02-05, 09:33 AM
Remind me, after this purchase how will the IRL circa 2005 be differant from CART 1993?
Jag_Warrior
06-02-05, 09:50 AM
Remind me, after this purchase how will the IRL circa 2005 be differant from CART 1993?
In structure or in quality? ;)
Spicoli
06-02-05, 09:54 AM
wow.
Looks like Spec Ilmors for EARL, Cozzies for us good guys.
oh yeah:
FRP.
lone_groover
06-02-05, 09:57 AM
You don't win a war by imitating your opponent - a month later.
'ski sould hang up the purple fedora and the krunk cup; he's been slapped-down BAD. Nobody respects him any more.
:thumdown:
DjDrOmusic
06-02-05, 11:25 AM
Wouldn't it be interesting if RP told TG that he'd only build turbo charged V8's because that's what his sponsors want? It could be a forced merger with RP and KK holding all the cards. Of course TG would announce that Bombardier will supply new 4 stroke engines for the IRL and Mikey will praise him as the one man who really understands open wheel racing!! ;)
I wonder what Toyota thinks of RP buying Honda's partner?
One thing's for sure: there's a lot going on under the radar right now!
extramundane
06-02-05, 11:56 AM
I wonder what Toyota thinks of RP buying Honda's partner?
I don't imagine Toyota much cares what RP buys right now.
Brickman
06-02-05, 12:01 PM
“Production engines are something that we will look at and consider as part of the process,” George said. However, he noted, the danger of building a series around production engines is what to do if the manufacturers that build those engines pack up and go home? “If all the manufacturers pull out, we need something we can go racing with,” said George. Specialty racing engine builders like Cosworth and Ilmor could easily fill that gap, which is part of the appeal of purpose-built engines. - Tony George 2004
So is Penske acting as FTG's proxy like Green and Ganassi, or is he cornering the market for his own benefit?
The copycat nature of this purchase is so similar to what KK and Forsythe did with Cosworth, it leads me to believe this is an FTG production. However, Penske was an advocate of reunification a year ago and is ruthless enough to cut Tony's knee's out from under him. So I'm still undecided.
Another wrinkle, was Ilmor testing those turbo-charged engines in California as part of an inventory before the sale, or were they warming up the knife Penske is gonna put to Tony's throat?
Brickman
06-02-05, 12:33 PM
So is Penske acting as FTG's proxy like Green and Ganassi, or is he cornering the market for his own benefit?
The copycat nature of this purchase is so similar to what KK and Forsythe did with Cosworth, it leads me to believe this is an FTG production.
It was destined after KK's great purchase and a forgone conclusion. IMO
extramundane
06-02-05, 12:57 PM
So is Penske acting as FTG's proxy like Green and Ganassi, or is he cornering the market for his own benefit?
The copycat nature of this purchase is so similar to what KK and Forsythe did with Cosworth, it leads me to believe this is an FTG production. However, Penske was an advocate of reunification a year ago and is ruthless enough to cut Tony's knee's out from under him. So I'm still undecided.
I don't imagine Penske is anyone's proxy these days (well, anyone who's last name isn't France, anyway). If Penske buys Ilmor, then TG needs him more than he needs TG. As an added bonus, he gets to throw Ilmor's talents at his NASCAR & ALMS teams. Make no mistake, this deal is to benefit Penske, first and foremost. If it helps out TG (or anyone else) along the way, that's incidental.
Another wrinkle, was Ilmor testing those turbo-charged engines in California as part of an inventory before the sale, or were they warming up the knife Penske is gonna put to Tony's throat?
I thought it was HPD that was testing the old CART engines? Of course, Ilmor most likely has some old ex-Mercedes 2.65-ers sitting around too...
I thought it was HPD that was testing the old CART engines? Of course, Ilmor most likely has some old ex-Mercedes 2.65-ers sitting around too...
Oh yeah....whoops. :gomer:
It will be interesting to see what Toyota, Chevrolet and Honda does. What TG values the most between the three. Maybe TG will pull a rabbit out of the hat
http://www.videodrome.org/reviews/pics/rocky_&_bullwinkle1.jpg
This is kinda what I expected when I posted above. People want them to crash and burn, and lose sight that parachutes exist. But I think the Danica factor could sway manufacturers if overall interest picks up.
June 1st has come and gone, I'm sure Tony is keeping his fingers crossed, even if they are really Roger's.
trauma1
06-03-05, 07:50 AM
so earl's engine are going to be menard blow up specials, under acheevers mechachrome and illmore, just who in thier right mind will badge.them :shakehead penske wouldn't be buying it if yoda and fonda were going to stick around
Racing Truth
06-03-05, 12:21 PM
wow.
Looks like Spec Ilmors for EARL, Cozzies for us good guys.
oh yeah:
FRP.
But I thought you said they were going Grand-Am? :confused:
Could you have been wrong? :confused: ;) :D
oddlycalm
06-03-05, 01:41 PM
The copycat nature of this purchase is so similar to what KK and Forsythe did with Cosworth, it leads me to believe this is an FTG production. Yes and no. Forsythe and Kalkovan bought all of Cosworth, Penske is buying the equivalent of Cosworth's Torrance operation from Ilmor. For the purposes of the EARL it may not matter at this point, but my guess is that any new engine program would be a stretch without bringing on some additional talent.
It will all become more clear when we see where they are moving the operation to and who is going with them. Unless there is a platoon of design engineers, they won't be doing much other than supporting what's already in existance.
oc
oddlycalm
06-03-05, 01:46 PM
penske wouldn't be buying it if yoda and fonda were going to stick around He would if he intends to continue in NASCAR, as that's where his engines come from.
RacinM3
06-03-05, 03:13 PM
Penske Badged Porche
My gut tells me no way. Porsche prides themselves on their motors and I don't see them badging someone else's. Especially just to get to Indy. Remember the early Indy/Porsche history...they had a motor ready to go then USAC wavered and lowered their boost, causing them to drop it before the car ever ran at Indy.
Any infatuation Porsche had with Indy died along with Al Holbert ( :( ) in that plane crash.
Again, just my gut feeling.
RacinM3
06-03-05, 03:15 PM
Oh, and how funny would it be if KK outflanked FRP and bought this portion of Illmor out from under him?
Spicoli
06-03-05, 03:43 PM
But I thought you said they were going Grand-Am? :confused:
Could you have been wrong? :confused: ;) :D
I think that's still the plan. They do that in MipS.
I think the indy rating - from what i hear - shot the unification thing to ****.
btw - heard the GA spec from a EaRL team owner. Directly.
trauma1
06-03-05, 03:43 PM
He would if he intends to continue in NASCAR, as that's where his engines come from.
so this is a nascar move? ans he has no intention of bailing FTG out?
Spicoli
06-03-05, 03:44 PM
so this is a nascar move? ans he has no intention of bailing FTG out?
Damn good question.
Porsche prides themselves on their motors and I don't see them badging someone else's. Especially just to get to Indy.
I seem to remember similar comments about Honda and Ilmor just before they announced they were jumping to the IRL. I hope Porsche values that integrity more than Honda.
Don Quixote
06-03-05, 04:01 PM
I seem to remember similar comments about Honda and Ilmor just before they announced they were jumping to the IRL. I hope Porsche values that integrity more than Honda.
The words "Honda" and "integrety" in the same sentence? :shakehead :D
Ozarkian
06-03-05, 05:20 PM
I think the indy rating - from what i hear - shot the unification thing to ****.
I was wondering about that - the head gomeratti at the Speedway believing all the hype and feeling self-important again ...
So what does Honda do now? Run Danica in front of empty seats for another year, with no competition from Yoda?
Spicoli
06-03-05, 06:50 PM
So what does Honda do now? Run Danica in front of empty seats for another year, with no competition from Yoda?
\They will come back to reality soon. Nobody will GAF about these turds come July. A couple .05s on "The Duece" will see to that. :thumbup:
Hope you're right. Got to figure that the better Honda gets to know TG, the less they will want to do business with him.
oddlycalm
06-03-05, 08:29 PM
\They will come back to reality soon. Nobody will GAF about these turds come July. A couple .05s on "The Duece" will see to that. :thumbup: Exactly right, even if they have access to spec engines from Penske's Ilmor acquisition it doesn't solve any of the rest of the issues. Specifically, the major sucking sound from the teams that have been funded by Honda and Toyota upon the departure of the money. Count on 7-11 Japan leaving as well.
oc
Peter Venkman
06-03-05, 08:59 PM
“Production engines are something that we will look at and consider as part of the process,” George said. However, he noted, the danger of building a series around production engines is what to do if the manufacturers that build those engines pack up and go home? “If all the manufacturers pull out, we need something we can go racing with,” said George. Specialty racing engine builders like Cosworth and Ilmor could easily fill that gap, which is part of the appeal of purpose-built engines. - Tony George 2004
My good Mr. Brickman, do you really think that Tony George could string coherent sentences like that without a ghost writer?
As for Penske buying back Ilmor, that may be a case of Penske having a seat when the music stops.
Regards,
Peter
Spicoli
06-04-05, 03:46 AM
The gomers are posturing like honda is gone already. and of course that's a GOOD THING. :rolleyes:
this is funny to read:
http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=60556&perpage=25&pagenumber=3
No dis on the ladies that post there, but dang, are they singing a different tune 1 week later or WHAT!?
Jag_Warrior
06-04-05, 04:53 PM
How many versions of the Chevrolet (Ilmor) were floating around in the "good old days"? Who got the cherry engines? Wonder who will get the cherry engines after the dust settles on this deal? :p
Despite the Danica hype and the rumors about GM changing its mind, nothing has changed in GM land, except their share of the N.A. auto market is now less than when a GM acquaintance told me they were definitely gone. If they stay, I'll be shocked... and someone will owe me a bottle of Glenfiddich (so, I kinda hope GM stays). :)
I don't know a thing about Penske, but from all appearances he seems to be consolidating his power, while expanding his racing empire: bought out Wallace, et al, working with Porsche on what could be a pretty major ALMS program, now buying a portion of Ilmor (the only portion he really needs). BTW, whatever happened to his car building operation in Poole, England?
I'm just thinking, would Penske buy a Honda partner, if all was good with Toyota and the IRL? Would Honda allow him to buy their partner, if all was good with Honda/HPD and the IRL?
Is Penske going to bail out Tony George? As long as George (or somebody besides Penske) is writing the check to be saved, sure... if you want to see that as a "bail out". If you have a problem and you need Roger Penske's help, you now have two problems. Like M3, I can't imagine Porsche allowing their nameplate on a badged engine. But these days, very little makes sense, so who knows??? That rumor has been going around about Porsche and the IRL for a few months (course the BMW and Ferrari family rumors made the rounds for years and nothing materialized).
This is going to be interesting. I just wonder who will badge the Penske/Ilmors? And I wonder what formula Penske might build to. I mean, afterall, if he's the major supplier, seems to me he could set the rules on what the IRL would run. And if he was to have a sit down with say, Kevin Kalkhoven... :cool: Yeah, I'm sure glad 12-step guy "fixed" what was wrong with American open wheel. He's really got the world by the tail now, doesn't he? :rofl:
Spicoli
06-04-05, 11:50 PM
I hate Tony George.
FCYTravis
06-05-05, 12:01 AM
Is there anyone outside of Marion County who doesn't?
I am a chimbley, a chimbley sweep,
no bed to lie no shoes to hold my feet
upon a rooftop in dead of night
you hear me cry i shake you from your sleep
to hear me weep your day will come indeed
for i am a poor and a wretched boy
a chimbley chimbley sweep
**** y'all
you can't hang with this takamine ****
g series bitches.
DRIFTING 4 LIFE!!!!
racer2c
06-05-05, 01:11 AM
I am a chimbley, a chimbley sweep,
no bed to lie no shoes to hold my feet
upon a rooftop in dead of night
you hear me cry i shake you from your sleep
to hear me weep your day will come indeed
for i am a poor and a wretched boy
a chimbley chimbley sweep
**** y'all
you can't hang with this takamine ****
g series bitches.
DRIFTING 4 LIFE!!!!
I have a G series Takamine. Plays like a champ, you plastic Ovation playin' *****. ;)
devilmaster
06-05-05, 02:49 AM
Seagull. :thumbup:
oddlycalm
06-05-05, 06:07 PM
I don't know a thing about Penske, but from all appearances he seems to be consolidating his power, while expanding his racing empire: bought out Wallace, et al, working with Porsche on what could be a pretty major ALMS program, now buying a portion of Ilmor (the only portion he really needs). BTW, whatever happened to his car building operation in Poole, England? Penske still owns the Poole operation, and it seems a logical possible location for the former Ilmor operation.
Looks to me like he's keeping his options open while securing his NASCAR engine source. As someone else posted, this puts him securely in a chair when the music stops. As you well know, in business the successful guys don't try to predict the future, a fools errand, but rather lay the groundwork that will let them profit regardless what happens. Penske secures his engine supply in NASCAR and also has assets he can employ in a number of idfferent series depending on how things go.
Regarding all the Honda/EARL engine supplier speculation one comment I would make is that Penske has not shown a lot of interest in supplying customers anything beyond components in the past.
oc
Racing Truth
06-05-05, 07:03 PM
I think that's still the plan. They do that in MipS.
I think the indy rating - from what i hear - shot the unification thing to ****.
btw - heard the GA spec from a EaRL team owner. Directly.
I was wondering if Tony George would be dumb enough to think he accomplished something b/c of Danica. Not surprisingly, he is. :shakehead
HOWEVER!...I think I can guaranTEE that if Danica WINS in '07 driving a Panoz/Pontiac millions of "racing" fans won't give one crap about what powered her there and this year's mania will PALE in comparison. Believe it. You'll forget all about the frustration you're experiencing this year.
Racing Truth
06-06-05, 07:37 PM
HOWEVER!...I think I can guaranTEE that if Danica WINS in '07 driving a Panoz/Pontiac millions of "racing" fans won't give one crap about what powered her there and this year's mania will PALE in comparison. Believe it. You'll forget all about the frustration you're experiencing this year.
Very big IFFFF, but yes, you would be right. It would make right now look like background noise.
Very big IFFF.
If you have a problem and you need Roger Penske's help, you now have two problems.
:laugh:
stroker
06-06-05, 08:18 PM
Somebody needs to 'shop a picture of FRP and Don Corleone...
:)
I have a G series Takamine. Plays like a champ, you plastic Ovation playin' *****. ;)
tak here too :gomer:
seagulls are niiiiice. me likely the canadian guitar.
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