Impressive Rumor

[NismoZ]

And we thought Penske had given up? Milwaukee chatter has Roger buying (or into) Ilmor to compete in a unified series powered by Honda, Cosworth (Ford) and Mercedes, with Kalkhoven, Forsythe, Penske and George as equal partners!? Holy Crap!

[Shadow]

I'm inclined to treat it as nothing more than a rumour given how many of these are popping up. Mark's job on AR1 is to report the rumours and he does a good job of it.

We should never lose sight of the definition of rumour (well, for most of you guys - rumor).

rumour

n : gossip (usually a mixture of truth and untruth) passed around by word of mouth [syn: rumor, hearsay] v : tell or spread rumors; "It was rumored that the next president would be a woman"

What he reports on AR1 really fits in well with this definition.

[gjc2]

And we thought Penske had given up? Milwaukee chatter has Roger buying (or into) Ilmor to compete in a unified series powered by Honda, Cosworth (Ford) and Mercedes, with Kalkhoven, Forsythe, Penske and George as equal partners!? Holy Crap!

The combined business acumen of Kalkhoven, Forsythe & Penske is no match for the stupidity of TG. Even as a 25% partner he will be a problem as long as he controls the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

George

[NismoZ]

Sure, isn't that what the internet is for!? Speculation, rumor...best/worse scenerios, debate and opinion? I think if we confine ourselves only to "the facts" (as WE see them :D ) the forum becomes dull and predictable. Many strange stories HAVE become fact, I see no harm in mentioning or discussing them ahead of time as to why they may or may not have any merit. I don't mind considering the rumors and I think knowing the source is important and any serious person will always note and consider that. I've long been impatient with people who shout "links?", "PROOF?", "announcement?" and simply want to show they KNOW more than the next guy, and knew it FIRST! For those who believe a merger or unification of some sort would be good for open wheel racing here this rumor may be of interest. It may also interest those who hate the idea.

[swift]

would TG be less destructive to american open-wheel racing by:

perpetuating the split, (which he will likely do as long as he has some leftover inheritance and brickyard 400 revenues to bankroll the IRL)
being corralled, and outvoted by competent businessmen, as a partner in a unified series.

if those are the only two choices, and the unified series looks, sounds, and smells like early 90's-CART, i'd say that the second choice is the lesser evil. big if's.

[FRANKY]

And we thought Penske had given up? Milwaukee chatter has Roger buying (or into) Ilmor to compete in a unified series powered by Honda, Cosworth (Ford) and Mercedes, with Kalkhoven, Forsythe, Penske and George as equal partners!? Holy Crap!

I think even a partially unified series would be fine. Same engines and chassis, they go do their thing, Champ Car does it's.

[Racing Truth]

I think even a partially unified series would be fine. Same engines and chassis, they go do their thing, Champ Car does it's.

What, the last 10 yrs. haven't been fun? :gomer:

[FRANKY]

What, the last 10 yrs. haven't been fun? :gomer:

Just like the Milwaukee attendance indicated. Champ car did just fine after the split it's the ladder part that attendance has dropped off. It's not a Tony thing. 1-7 were fine, but it's just getting tiresome.

[nissan gtp]

The combined business acumen of Kalkhoven, Forsythe & Penske is no match for the stupidity of TG. Even as a 25% partner he will be a problem as long as he controls the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

George


:cheers: that's the post of the year so far :thumbup:

[Racing Truth]

The combined business acumen of Kalkhoven, Forsythe & Penske is no match for the stupidity of TG. Even as a 25% partner he will be a problem as long as he controls the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

George

So, you try to steal IMS from him? :confused:

[nissan gtp]

So, you try to steal IMS from him? :confused:

nope, absolutely not.

but toney gets 0% of champ car, and 0% of any mythical unified series. toney can and should run indy, but that's it.

[JLMannin]

would TG be less destructive to american open-wheel racing by:

perpetuating the split, (which he will likely do as long as he has some leftover inheritance and brickyard 400 revenues to bankroll the IRL)
being corralled, and outvoted by competent businessmen, as a partner in a unified series.

if those are the only two choices, and the unified series looks, sounds, and smells like early 90's-CART, i'd say that the second choice is the lesser evil. big if's.
In my opinion, the first choice is the better of the two. It gives Champcar 100% control over itself, insulating it from any waves of stupidity and arrogance that may strike TG. If he has a role of anything other than a track owner in a unified series, then this fan is done with US-based formula car racing.

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm inclined to treat it as nothing more than a rumour given how many of these are popping up. Mark's job on AR1 is to report the rumours
n : gossip (usually a mixture of truth and untruth) passed around by word of mouth [syn: rumor, hearsay] v : tell or spread rumors; "It was rumored that the next president would be a woman"

What he reports on AR1 really fits in well with this definition.


AR1? :rofl: Is that where this one came from? Oh, well then... :rolleyes:

I heard a rumor that FedEx was going to be the IRL's title sponsor. Send me $20 and I'll fill youse guys in... plus I'll send youse an autographed picture of Jon Vaninni and James Grosfeld.

[dando]

I heard a rumor that FedEx was going to be the IRL's title sponsor. Send me $20 and I'll fill youse guys in... plus I'll send youse an autographed picture of Jon Vaninni and James Grosfeld.

:gomer:

I heard Bernie was gonna buyout both series.... :gomer: :gomer:

-Kevin

[Shadow]

Sure, isn't that what the internet is for!? Speculation, rumor...best/worse scenerios, debate and opinion? I think if we confine ourselves only to "the facts" (as WE see them :D ) the forum becomes dull and predictable. Many strange stories HAVE become fact, I see no harm in mentioning or discussing them ahead of time as to why they may or may not have any merit. I don't mind considering the rumors and I think knowing the source is important and any serious person will always note and consider that. I've long been impatient with people who shout "links?", "PROOF?", "announcement?" and simply want to show they KNOW more than the next guy, and knew it FIRST! For those who believe a merger or unification of some sort would be good for open wheel racing here this rumor may be of interest. It may also interest those who hate the idea.


Look, all I was saying politely was "don't get your hopes up since you sure can't take this a gospel." If it happens fine, maybe, but I sure wouldn't bet the weekly food money on it happening. It is just "another" rumour.

I subscribe to AR1 and communicate with Mark regularly - even provide him rumours for the mill - but that doesn't make them fact. Would it be nice to see this as fact? Well, if they had 25% each what would the voting blocks look like - RP and TG on one side and KK and GF on the other - stalemate? Or would it be RP, KK and GF on one side and TG on the other. As has been pointed out TG has IMS and he puts a value on it that is more than the rest of his lemming league and CCWS together. In that case TG again takes his ball and goes home. If TG gets 30% and the other three share 70, all he needs is RP on his side and KK and GF are cooked.

Is there a solution out that we can't see that will work? (work = acceptable to TG and he actually lives with it for the good of the sport). I haven't seen it yet. I've seen suggestions that I think are good - but TG sure doesn't agree with me.

[gjc2]

So, you try to steal IMS from him? :confused:

Not steal, buy. Buying the IMS solves the whole problem, doesn't it? Who would a potential buyer have to deal with? Maybe an interested buyer would deal directly with Mari.

George

Isn't wild speculation fun?

[DagoFast]

^^^^^^^^

Yep. Thats been Ftg's only card to play all along.

Do you still wonder why Pimpski threw in with the France's?

I bet he would just love to own IMS before he dies.

[Methanolandbrats]

And we thought Penske had given up? Milwaukee chatter has Roger buying (or into) Ilmor to compete in a unified series powered by Honda, Cosworth (Ford) and Mercedes, with Kalkhoven, Forsythe, Penske and George as equal partners!? Holy Crap! Sure, and I suppose tomorrow morning a gold ingot will fall out of my ***.

[Ankf00]

so who's got the good glue for me to sniff?

[pchall]

so who's got the good glue for me to sniff?

Funny you should ask. I just got 4 oz of ultra thin cyanoacrylate! ;)

[NismoZ]

And I used to wonder what was really wrong with you two! ;)

[Hard Driver]

Look, it has been proven the that INDY 500 is a huge part of open wheel racing. When taken away from CART, it killed all of Open Wheel racing in America. So the value that Tony brings to the table is worth something. So although he is worthless as a human being, his track is not. For that I say give him the 25% ownership and go racing. A unified series with those partners would definitely succeed better than either Champcars or the IRL independently. They would have the engine and chassis resources to make good cars, and have the overall interest enough to gain fans and sponsors.

I think it would be great if ONE of the partners could put their ego aside and not demand to run the whole thing. But unfortunately I believe Tony is too much of an egotistical pig head to "settle" for being anything other than owning the whole thing.

[Lizzerd]

KK, GF, and FRP I could almost be able to tolerate. FTG should have no, repeat zip, zero, nothing ownership of the series. The other three are established businessmen. FTG has time and again been proven to be a complete idiot who had a good grand-daddy.

I say almost above, because FRP and FTG each owning 25% would essentially make the four way partnership a 50-50 stalemate on virtually every major decision to be made.

[Spicoli]

KK, GF, and FRP I could almost be able to tolerate. FTG should have no, repeat zip, zero, nothing ownership of the series. The other three are established businessmen. FTG has time and again been proven to be a complete idiot who had a good grand-daddy.

I say almost above, because FRP and FTG each owning 25% would essentially make the four way partnership a 50-50 stalemate on virtually every major decision to be made.

Yeah Bruce, but he's (FTG) on the hook for 25%, and the other three can cancel out ANY vote he's got.

[FTG]

This would be the dumbest possible way for Tony to ends his 10 year with CART, becoming business partners with the man who helped start CART. It's so dumb, Tony might do it.

[NismoZ]

No, I don't see a 50-50 split in that arrangement at all. You assume Penske would automatically side with FTG just because he is an IRL owner now? No way. Penske may be/is the best of the group when it comes to the business of AUTO RACING and I feel confident he would act independently of Speedway-only interests. I only wish you FTG haters could separate him from the Indy 500. I view those as 2 very different entities. Openwheel racing needs one not the other, but better to take (involve) both than fail without either.

[Lizzerd]

Yeah Bruce, but he's (FTG) on the hook for 25%, and the other three can cancel out ANY vote he's got.

My point was, how would FRP vote? On anything! With FTG or with KK and GF? My guess would be more with FTG. FRP is interested in FRP, FTG is interestsed in FTG. KK and GF want to build a series, albeit in their best interests as well, which don't IMO jibe with what FTG has in what is left of his vision. I don't think the three entities (combining KK and GF) will be in the best interests of Champ Car as a whole.

25% is waaaaayyy too much, if he deserves anything.

[Jervis Tetch 1]

nope, absolutely not.

but toney gets 0% of champ car, and 0% of any mythical unified series. toney can and should run indy, but that's it.He can't even do that right, but I agree with you.

[FanofMario]

Look, it has been proven the that INDY 500 is a huge part of open wheel racing. When taken away from CART, it killed all of Open Wheel racing in America. So the value that Tony brings to the table is worth something. So although he is worthless as a human being, his track is not. For that I say give him the 25% ownership and go racing. A unified series with those partners would definitely succeed better than either Champcars or the IRL independently. They would have the engine and chassis resources to make good cars, and have the overall interest enough to gain fans and sponsors.

I think it would be great if ONE of the partners could put their ego aside and not demand to run the whole thing. But unfortunately I believe Tony is too much of an egotistical pig head to "settle" for being anything other than owning the whole thing.

Agreed. The ONLY card FTG has is IMS. But it is a key card IMO. I have no doubts that a unified series would be better than what we have now. Though I believe FRP is a selfish prick, I still think the guy wants a valid openwheel series. I also agree the biggest roadblock to anything in openwheel is FTG. If that scumbag could ever swallow some of that ego there would be a unified series, but I have held that hope now for ten long years. Rumor has it that Mari Hulman George was at the mile as a guest of somebody??? Maybe something can happen ina positive way. :saywhat:

[Lizzerd]

Look, it has been proven the that INDY 500 is a huge part of open wheel racing. When taken away from CART, it killed all of Open Wheel racing in America. So the value that Tony brings to the table is worth something. So although he is worthless as a human being, his track is not. For that I say give him the 25% ownership and go racing. A unified series with those partners would definitely succeed better than either Champcars or the IRL independently. They would have the engine and chassis resources to make good cars, and have the overall interest enough to gain fans and sponsors.

I think it would be great if ONE of the partners could put their ego aside and not demand to run the whole thing. But unfortunately I believe Tony is too much of an egotistical pig head to "settle" for being anything other than owning the whole thing.

Well, crap...

Hard Driver, you make a damn good arguement. I had to read this post a couple times to get the real gist of it, but I think you may have a point. Seriously. No sarcasm.

BUT... 25% is still way too much to cede to the idiot inheritor. Give him something like 10 - 20% and I might be okay with it. No way should he and FRP working together be able to negate anything KK and GF want to propose. If it means saving OW in the US then give him a piece of the action, but no control. He still has the biggest sandbox, and that should be enough.

[krunch]

I just don't get it.

As far as I see all that Tony George has to offer is the Indy 500.

All he should be offered is the chance to put his race on the Champ Car schedule.

Or am I missing something here? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[mueber]

Anyone who thinks that Tony George is part of the solution to what ails open wheel racing is suffering from dementia.

[KLang]

Anyone who thinks that Tony George is part of the solution to what ails open wheel racing is suffering from dementia.

Exactly right :thumbup:

Come on, May is over, these rumors are supposed to be done until next year.

[Racing Truth]

KK, GF, and FRP I could almost be able to tolerate. FTG should have no, repeat zip, zero, nothing ownership of the series. The other three are established businessmen. FTG has time and again been proven to be a complete idiot who had a good grand-daddy.

I say almost above, because FRP and FTG each owning 25% would essentially make the four way partnership a 50-50 stalemate on virtually every major decision to be made.

You assume RP and TG will be on the same page. I make no such assumption.

[Insomniac]

I hate TG, but there is no way anyone can expect him to just pack it all up and let the new single OW series just race at Indy. He messed it all up, but that idea is just not even close to realistic.

I think if they want to do 25/25/25/25 with TG, RP, KK and GF, let them. Even 50/25/25 with TG, KK and GF. Let them all be owners and profit (or not) equally.

The heart of the matter is TG wanted input/control of it all. KK and GF aren't going to cede it all to him. The seat on the board offered to him was just pointless for what he wanted so he took his ball and went home. However the ownership of a new series is split, neither side will allow the other to control the series. They should form a board comprised of the owners of the series and one other person that is unanimously placed there by the owners of the new series. That seat is retained for one year and that person or someone else must be re-elected to the position annually. If either "side" feels the person isn't voting in the best interest of them or the sport, in a year they can work to replace them.

I don't know what the odds are of them actually finding someone they can all agree on (Mario Andretti?) or someone crying and refusing to agree on anyone (then what do you do?) but if people are willing to not have full control on either side, this could work. Hoepfully in the end, everyone wins. OW racing in america can grow to where cars have sponsors that pay the bills, multiple manufacturers and crowds at races. The owners will make profits and TG won't be spending Indy revenue on running a series. And if he wants to be true to his orignal vision, he can keep Vision Racing running with people who are competent and put the american short track drivers in the seats based on talent, not money or nepotism.

[sundaydriver2]

I just don't get it.

As far as I see all that Tony George has to offer is the Indy 500.

All he should be offered is the chance to put his race on the Champ Car schedule.

Or am I missing something here? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



Nope, you got it right.

[FRANKY]

I think the IRL brings Indy, a few races on their schedule, and if the scuttlebutt is correct about RP and Ilmor being the other half of the engine equastion.

Tracks:
Texas
Infineon
Kansas - (sellout on the books)
Chicago - (sellout on the books)
St. Pete
Fontana
Milwaukee
Michigan
Watkins Glen
Motegi
Phoenix
Richmond
Nashville
Homestead
Kentucky
Pikes Peak

Just as CCWS has good "economic" races the IRL does too. The Danica Mania factor is in a too soon to tell mode as to whether she can give new or existing venues a bump. Infineon (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/06/04/SPGQ0D3O1F1.DTL) and Pikes Peak (http://www.newsday.com/sports/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-car-irl-patrick,0,3281879.story?coll=sns-ap-sports-headlines) seem to be effected already.

So they have some races attended on an equal basis to CCWS's domestic tracks.

But since I don't think it would be a combined series based on tracks and attendance, it would have to be based on engines or just simply a political solution, not based on any amount of control.

If Danica didn't re-up the interest by Honda, and Toyota. Then an ownership interest of 25% Cosworth and 25% Ilmor could be justified. The other would no doubt be held by IMS. What's wrong with it besides the Tony be damned? Nothing. Penske and Kalkoven have enough smarts to make sure that George is in check. I doubt Penske (a very smart businessman) would want to do anything but create a better more healthier series. If George wasnt to do something really dumb, it wouldn't be moved forward because Penske would stop it.

But I tend to agree on what a few are saying, that what will happen is a common engine, common chassis as a Phase One to solve things. From there they can move forward, and if not, nothing is lost. CCWS runs it's races, the IRL does theirs. They would have in place a common equipment so that if they can work things out in the future. The Lemmings would object to this because they would feel that CCWS is riding on the coattails of Indy, but they want 33 cars don't they? Real bumping don't they?

[Insomniac]

I think the IRL brings Indy, a few races on their schedule, and if the scuttlebutt is correct about RP and Ilmor being the other half of the engine equastion.

Tracks:
Texas
Infineon
Kansas - (sellout on the books)
Chicago - (sellout on the books)
St. Pete
Fontana
Milwaukee
Michigan
Watkins Glen
Motegi
Phoenix
Richmond
Nashville
Homestead
Kentucky
Pikes Peak

Just as CCWS has good "economic" races the IRL does too. The Danica Mania factor is in a too soon to tell mode as to whether she can give new or existing venues a bump. Infineon (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/06/04/SPGQ0D3O1F1.DTL) and Pikes Peak (http://www.newsday.com/sports/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-car-irl-patrick,0,3281879.story?coll=sns-ap-sports-headlines) seem to be effected already.

So they have some races attended on an equal basis to CCWS's domestic tracks.

But since I don't think it would be a combined series based on tracks and attendance, it would have to be based on engines or just simply a political solution, not based on any amount of control.

If Danica didn't re-up the interest by Honda, and Toyota. Then an ownership interest of 25% Cosworth and 25% Ilmor could be justified. The other would no doubt be held by IMS. What's wrong with it besides the Tony be damned? Nothing. Penske and Kalkoven have enough smarts to make sure that George is in check. I doubt Penske (a very smart businessman) would want to do anything but create a better more healthier series. If George wasnt to do something really dumb, it wouldn't be moved forward because Penske would stop it.

But I tend to agree on what a few are saying, that what will happen is a common engine, common chassis as a Phase One to solve things. From there they can move forward, and if not, nothing is lost. CCWS runs it's races, the IRL does theirs. They would have in place a common equipment so that if they can work things out in the future. The Lemmings would object to this because they would feel that CCWS is riding on the coattails of Indy, but they want 33 cars don't they? Real bumping don't they?

I don't think anyone disputes that the IRL brings stuff to the table; it's the guy in charge that makes this a hard thing to do. He practically offsets all of the good since he can take Indy and go home again any time he wants. As I type that, perhaps part of the equation should be a long term or contract between the new open wheel series and IMS to run a race annually. That could prevent a melt down at least until it comes time to re-up. It would also provide assurances to the fans that are left that we won't be heading down the same path again in the near future. Then hopefully the newer stronger series will generate plenty of money for people who spent the last few years spending their own, they will continue in the same direction since they know how bad it can get.

[Racing Truth]

I don't think anyone disputes that the IRL brings stuff to the table; it's the guy in charge that makes this a hard thing to do. He practically offsets all of the good since he can take Indy and go home again any time he wants. As I type that, perhaps part of the equation should be a long term or contract between the new open wheel series and IMS to run a race annually. That could prevent a melt down at least until it comes time to re-up. It would also provide assurances to the fans that are left that we won't be heading down the same path again in the near future. Then hopefully the newer stronger series will generate plenty of money for people who spent the last few years spending their own, they will continue in the same direction since they know how bad it can get.

Any deal would, I would think, almost require such a provision. If nothing else, its a face-saving measure for TG.

[NismoZ]

Let 'em run 16 of theirs, we can run 16 of ours, but we BOTH run 4 of the OTHER guys'. Both go to Long Beach, St.Pete, Indy, Milwaukee...Cleveland, Las Vegas, Mexico City and Fontana, wide open qualifying for a specified # on the grid. If the IRL ends up with 23 at Indy? Oh well! (they'd want Texas,too, but screw 'em) Big bucks, double points, or even a separate combined series champion as well as individual champs. Kinda like the old Pennant winners and World Series titles. A ChampCar Series Champ, an Indy Racing League Champ, and an Indy Car World Series Champ (or whatever) for the 8 main events, The Elite Eight? I know this sounds familiar, Mario and Paul Newman have suggested it recently, another site keeps droning on about something similar and I wrote a lot about it YEARS ago! We talked about an all oval "Triple Crown",(booo) or a "Grand Slam" of 2 ovals and 2 roads, (eh) or a large oval, a small oval a road course and a street course. (nice!) Hell, why stop at 3 or 4, do EIGHT! Makes the whole championship more valid and just reeks of the old diversity thing! It's not a real unification, rather a partial merger that ensures autonomy but increases chances of success for BOTH sides. We race in Australia, they go to Kentucky. We head to Brazil, they go to Kansas City. And so on, and so on and...Only thing is, specs have to be the same. (One side can't use aluminum bats while the other has wood!) Even the IRL guy said that was the EASY part. So DO it! Race your own races AND try to beat the other guys at theirs. Oh, and let FTG keep Indy until it gets so big and popular again he'll sell out to a combined, unified WORLD series!

[Mike Kellner]

The ideal: Roger & Chip buy IMS from Mari, and put Rick Mears in charge of the track. Put cash on the table to take equal equity stake with Three Amigos in CCWS. We get back to racing with everyone who can meet a 110% rule. (Any car that can make 110% of pole time races.)

Second best, cut a deal with Mari to save Indy: Fire Tony, fire the top layers of the IMS/IRL pyramid. Pro managers take over IMS. CCWS sanctions the 500 and runs the race. Unified TV deal with money distributed to car owners equally by number of qualified entrants per year.

Third best: Wait until they fire Tony as he is in the middle of negotiating making the 500 a NASTRUCK race.(All part of The Vision) Cobble something together from the rubble.
.
.
.
.

568th best idea: Any plan that includes Tony in the management of anything other than passing around the mirror in mom's skybox.

The problem with any plan that leaves the Hulman family involved in the management is; eventually Mari will be gone, and Tony will own the Speedway. Unless there is some way to guarantee that Tony will never be involved in the management, it is better to go it alone. Even if reality forces him to compromise now, sooner or later we will replay this game, likely as soon as the series becomes profitable. As long as Tony is alive, the 500 is a menace to open wheel racing, and we are better off to try to destroy it, than to unify the series. What we had was great, but it is gone, destroyed by Tony, and it is foolish to think he can be involved with fixing it.

mk

[cart7]

The ideal: Roger & Chip buy IMS from Mari, and put Rick Mears in charge of the track.
mk

Realistically, I wonder what IMS would be worth. $500 million maybe??

[Napoleon]

Realistically, I wonder what IMS would be worth. $500 million maybe??

At a 7% cap rate it would have to clear $35m a year and at a 8% cap, $40m a year to justify that price.

[Mike Kellner]

Yes, but you are not taking into account the emotional/trophy value. Much like having the Olympics on your TV network, the price for IMS would be higher than could be justified by the numbers. Plus, there is always the possibility that a good businessman could make a lot more with the 500, a big NASCAR race & a GP, not to mention the possibility of developing a 24 hour sports car race, than is currently being made.

The other question is, what would it cost to recreate the facility?

mk

[Napoleon]

Yes, but you are not taking into account the emotional/trophy value. Much like having the Olympics on your TV network, the price for IMS would be higher than could be justified by the numbers.

True, but buying a property like that on emotion is for idiots, IMO.


Plus, there is always the possibility that a good businessman could make a lot more with the 500, a big NASCAR race & a GP, not to mention the possibility of developing a 24 hour sports car race, than is currently being made.

True, but then as a business man you would work up a proforma based on what you believe you could make at it and cap that number to arrive at your max price. Honestly, at this point my guess is they are pretty much maxed out on NOI.


The other question is, what would it cost to recreate the facility?

IMO, not relavent since it is only worth what Net Opertating Income it can generate. For something that is up and operating that is really what you are going to look at, unless somehow the facility lends itself to multiple uses (which IMS does not, it is always only going to me a racetrack and golf course unless they plow it under and build something new).

[Spicoli]

At a 7% cap rate it would have to clear $35m a year and at a 8% cap, $40m a year to justify that price.

define "clear"

you are forgetting IMS properties' TM/IP $$$.

I've been told this: http://www.theinsidegroove.com/news/photos/logos/indianapolis_logo.gif

brings in enough each year to fund the EARL. the rest be gravy.

i thi9nk you are WAY low, if you are looking at the whole picture.

[Napoleon]

define "clear"

A traditional Net Operating Income definition. Gross income less Operating Expenses (including reserves but not including debt service).

As to the royalties from the intellectual property, I guess I was not considering that as part of the equation, but it should since it is indivisable, basically, from other operations.

But are they clearing $40m? That is a little hard to believe.

Hotels are traditionally valued at 1000 x daily rate on a back of the envelope basis. When the Penske/ISC deal went down does any one remember a similar quick way to value tracks that may have been discussed or calculated?

[Spicoli]

A traditional Net Operating Income definition. Gross income less Operating Expenses (including reserves but not including debt service).

As to the royalties from the intellectual property, I guess I was not considering that as part of the equation, but it should since it is indivisable, basically, from other operations.

But are they clearing $40m? That is a little hard to believe.

Hotels are traditionally valued at 1000 x daily rate on a back of the envelope basis. When the Penske/ISC deal went down does any one remember a similar quick way to value tracks that may have been discussed or calculated?

I'll bet they clear closer to 100m.

[Insomniac]

define "clear"

you are forgetting IMS properties' TM/IP $$$.

I've been told this: http://www.theinsidegroove.com/news/photos/logos/indianapolis_logo.gif

brings in enough each year to fund the EARL. the rest be gravy.

i thi9nk you are WAY low, if you are looking at the whole picture.

He's talking profit. I think they (Hullman family) leave TG alone because he is still making money. Not as much as he could if he wasn't propping up a series and attendance at Indy is dropping, but with the BY 400 they're doing plenty fine.

[DjDrOmusic]

... cut a deal with Mari ...

I know she isn't in a very good mood concerning the 500, and I think she has more going on in this whole scenario than anyone really knows.

[L1P1]

Realistically, I wonder what IMS would be worth. $500 million maybe??

I've seen an estimate of $1B in print.