"Forget about Tony George and the past"

[RaceChic]

Gordon Kirby's Latest Inside Track For June 7th, 2005: Link (http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=9091)


We were sitting outside the Newman/Haas motorhome at Milwaukee on Saturday morning. Carl Haas and I were having breakfast as we often do on race mornings. He was reflecting on Indianapolis and the blows the race had delivered to his team which bounced back in typically professional style during the weekend in Milwaukee.

Back at breakfast, Carl reflected on the recent reunification talks with Tony George. "For a while there I thought it was going to happen," Haas remarked. "I think for a little while we all thought it could happen. But of course it's come apart again, just like always. And now, I agree with you, it's never going to happen. It's gotta be all on Tony's terms. That's the only way he wants it. That's the way it's always been."

Haas's sentiments were reflected everywhere in the garage area at the Milwaukee Mile last weekend. It's clear to everyone at last that there's no point in any more talk with Tony George. He insists on being the king of any 'reunification'. He wants control, as he has since he started the deeply deleterious civil war that has done so much damage to American open-wheel racing.



Right on www.ChampCar.ws :D

[cart7]

ftg. What a dick. :rolleyes:

[Andrew Longman]

That's a great piece.

A real unvarnished look at TG. I love the story about RA.

And I like the idea of match races with AJ and Danica. Sort of an open wheel IROC :thumbup:

[KLang]

Today, for all intents, the war is behind us. The damage has been done and Champ Car's new ownership is working hard to rebuild what was once known as CART. Last month's talks with George and Barnhart have come to nothing, as most of us knew they would. The time has irrefutably come for Champ Car to forget about the Indy 500 and to concentrate on rebuilding the Champ Car World Series and its ladder series.

"We've got to stop looking back at the way it used to be," Paul Tracy observed in Milwaukee last weekend. "We've got to look forward. They need to forget about talking to Tony George. It's just a waste of time. They need to be looking ahead and planning the future of the series without any thoughts of the Indy 500. As far as Champ Car should be concerned, that race is from the past."


:thumbup: Very good piece indeed.


It's encouraging to read Carl's words. I just wish he would quit sending a team to ftg's race in May now. He is part of the problem.

[racer2c]

Great read. I'm on board. FTG, no re-unification!

[Napoleon]

TG: "I don't know what you're talking about"

That says it all.

[devilmaster]

It's gotta be all on Tony's terms. That's the only way he wants it. That's the way it's always been."


It's clear to everyone at last that there's no point in any more talk with Tony George. He insists on being the king of any 'reunification'. He wants control, as he has since he started the deeply deleterious civil war that has done so much damage to American open-wheel racing.


Big Al's response said it all. "You gotta tell Mario and all those guys over there that there's never going to be any getting together," Unser declared. "It's Tony's deal. That's the way it's got to be."


I was fired by the Speedway from writing a series of stories I'd been contracted for the Indy 500 program going back to 1980. I recall a comment from Mario Andretti when I told him the news. "That's a mistake by Tony," Mario remarked. "Now you have no allegiance to him. You won't feel any constraints on writing what you think."


George was adamant about firing up a civil war.


"We've got to stop looking back at the way it used to be," Paul Tracy observed in Milwaukee last weekend. "We've got to look forward. They need to forget about talking to Tony George. It's just a waste of time. They need to be looking ahead and planning the future of the series without any thoughts of the Indy 500. As far as Champ Car should be concerned, that race is from the past."

Finally.

A few of us said it when the unification talk heated up - don't trust him now. He hasn't changed. And it is obvious that he never will. As stupid as it sounds, as cliche'd as it sounds, he would rather destroy IMS and OW before giving up or admitting fault.

Its time to say goodbye. Champcar has a future in the hands of businessmen who know how to run a business, who have made their money not from inheritance, but from hard work, good smarts and experience.

I believe they can build champcar again, and its up to us, the fans to make sure they know where we want the series to go in the future.

[Insomniac]

TG: "I don't know what you're talking about"

That says it all.

Does he ever?

[pchall]

As ever with the short bus scions of prominent families --- megalomania and profound stupidity have become dominant traits.

Now, finally, I hope that old Carl's Indyitis has been cured.

[JLMannin]

The time has irrefutably come for Champ Car to forget about the Indy 500 and to concentrate on rebuilding the Champ Car World Series and its ladder series.

That time came for me when TG announced the plans to form his own series with the 500 as its centerpeice.

Lets schedule some races in May and move on without the 500. TG can't live forever. When he is out of the picture, I will consider reunification discussions appropriate.

[2DB]

An insightful piece! It appeared Leo Mehl had a lot of pressure resting on his sholders back then. From an outsider looking in stand point, Mad King George has never had anyone say no to him before, he can't understand that and no one can make him. "If we don't play my way I'll pick up my jacks and go home". What a pity to see a sport I have enjoyed, as well as participated in, since a very young age go down the drain!! I'm to the point that, ALL the King's men can't put this "Humpty" back together!!!! My thanks to Gordon Kirby for the read.

Kelvis

[formulaben]

I just wish he would quit sending a team to ftg's race in May now. He is part of the problem.

That could easily be solved if those retards at Champcar/OWRS actually showed some testicular fortitude and (insert broken record here) scheduled their own race on Memorial Day weekend...gee, there's a thought. OK morons, it's been 10 years, it's over. :mad:

ROAD AMERICA, MONDAY. STEP UP.

[FRANKY]

Before every 500 it's about unification, after it's about complaining. The only part of the article that matters to me is that Haas may finally be getting it.

But even then he may be back next May, he certainly hasn't helped matters.

It's always been about control, from day one to day 3651. That's why unification would have to be a smaller percentage, under Tony's umbrella, under his control.

"For a while there I thought it was going to happen," Haas remarked. "I think for a little while we all thought it could happen. But of course it's come apart again, just like always." I for one sure would like to know the details.

"These days, Tracy stands out as the only open-wheel driver in North America with any kind of a profile in the mass media and popular culture" Earth to Gordon Kirby, the 2003 CART Champion with a "profile" is sponsorless, and he's still winning races. That's an indicator how great open wheel profiles are. Not Danica.

[TRDfan]

Fantastic column by Gordon Kirby. :thumbup:

[RichK]

Gordon Kirby has always been somewhat diplomatic in his well-written articles. This scathing piece was surprising to me, but I thought one of his best.

The Road America and private meeting episodes with TG were very revealing.

I'd like to change my vote in the "Will there be reunification" thread!

[Napoleon]

I'd like to change my vote in the "Will there be reunification" thread!

I voted no because I figured TG just does not have it in him to ever understand that giving a little is really in his long term interest.

[Gnam]

Fantastic column by Gordon Kirby. :thumbup:
It's fine to talk about moving on from Indy and leaving it in the past, but when are they actually going to start walking away. The 2006 schedule comes out in July, right? If there's no race in May, it'll be the exact same as this year.

[Racing Truth]

Yep. :mad: Clearly, TG has, perhaps once and for all, finally killed unification. Now time to move on, w/o him and the 500, as best we can. :mad: :(

[SteveH]

Mad King George has never had anyone say no to him before


I suspect that alone is bigger than anything else. Going way back to the presentation he made to CART and everything since.

[Wally]

Great read. I would like to see more of this from insiders.........the truth needs to be heard and presented to the casual fan. Its time for a tell all. :thumbup:

[Mike Kellner]

It is good to hear that Carl is finally getting it. I hope that means he won't be back at Indy next year. I also hope we finally get two races in May. Saint Danica has just given Tony and his toadies new hope that they don't need the rest of the sport. There will never be a deal. I just hope we are not playing this same stupid record next year.

mk

[FTG]

What does Honda do now?

[rabbit]

As A.J. Allmendinger--a man we all know is the real deal--observes: "When I raced against Danica in the Barber/Dodge series in 2002 I never even saw her. She was always a second or two off my laptimes." Zing! :D

[Andrew Longman]

So what happened or didn't happen in the last week or so that leads Carl now to say the issue is dead?

Did TG not say himself he thought some sort of unification was needed? Did Honda not say they wanted it? How does the Penske Ilmore thing fit? Was there a meeting that followed all that that once again ended in impass?

TG still hasn't announced an engine spec. If he thinks he is going to get spec Ilmore engines for his series that's believable, but who are going to fund all those teams, including precious Danica, who are currently on the T/H dole?

I guess I'm confused. Did I miss something and isn't TG still pretty much screwed?

Not that I disagree with the theme for CCWS to take it's own path. Even if they do wind up back at Indy or other IRL races, it has to be because it fits with what's right for CCWS. Negotiate, if at all, from strength.

[KLang]

I sure hope Kirby's column also reflects the views of KK and GF.

[Racing Truth]

So what happened or didn't happen in the last week or so that leads Carl now to say the issue is dead?

Did TG not say himself he thought some sort of unification was needed? Did Honda not say they wanted it? How does the Penske Ilmore thing fit? Was there a meeting that followed all that that once again ended in impass?

TG still hasn't announced an engine spec. If he thinks he is going to get spec Ilmore engines for his series that's believable, but who are going to fund all those teams, including precious Danica, who are currently on the T/H dole?

I guess I'm confused. Did I miss something and isn't TG still pretty much screwed?

Not that I disagree with the theme for CCWS to take it's own path. Even if they do wind up back at Indy or other IRL races, it has to be because it fits with what's right for CCWS. Negotiate, if at all, from strength.

Ultimately, we'll see if Kirby is reflecting the views of everyone involved. Everything you say is accurate, but I suspect TG now feels he accomplished something with Danica. Hope I'm wrong, but that's how it looks.

[Andrew Longman]

That's it? It's all the Danica factor?

That's pretty risky.

a) If she took herself out with the others while spinning under caution there would have been no story.

b) It remains to be seen if the casual fans can even find the next IRL race, let alone care about Danica. Unless she starts to win and win a lot soon, she may have just had her 15 minutes of fame. (what the name of the American Idol winner again?)

c) Danica drives the car, not powers it.They'll still need engines

d) Let's assume Danica lives up to the hype and turns the turnstyles. Without Honda money how long before a NASCAR team graps her? (A NASCAR fan said to me on Saturday that he'd like to see her in Cup) Short of that, how long before KK pulls her away as an IRL asset? Theoretically, he moght pay a lot to get a big star into his series (again, assuming she lives up to the hype).

I just don't see the basis for comfort on TGs behalf

[Racing Truth]

That's it? It's all the Danica factor?

That's pretty risky.

a) If she took herself out with the others while spinning under caution there would have been no story.

b) It remains to be seen if the casual fans can even find the next IRL race, let alone care about Danica. Unless she starts to win and win a lot soon, she may have just had her 15 minutes of fame. (what the name of the American Idol winner again?)

c) Danica drives the car, not powers it.They'll still need engines

d) Let's assume Danica lives up to the hype and turns the turnstyles. Without Honda money how long before a NASCAR team graps her? (A NASCAR fan said to me on Saturday that he'd like to see her in Cup) Short of that, how long before KK pulls her away as an IRL asset? Theoretically, he moght pay a lot to get a big star into his series (again, assuming she lives up to the hype).

I just don't see the basis for comfort on TGs behalf

No kidding its risky. My guess is he HOPES she'll bring enough attention, ROI to attract current or new mftrs and/or sponsors.

The Champ Car pulling her away has an attractive possibility. Esp. since her contract status with Rahal is, to say the least, unclear.

[racer2c]

What does Honda do now?

I hope they see the light. but they too may be blinded by the godess of speed.

I also hope that one of TG's flunkies reads him the article, or at least gives him a easy to understand overview in simple words. "Words make Tony mad."

[pchall]

That's it? It's all the Danica factor?

That's pretty risky.

Yes, it is. Remember, DNFisher still has the only XX podium in a gIRL race and that didn't do them much good, did it?

[JT265]

Yes, it is. Remember, DNFisher still has the only XX podium in a gIRL race and that didn't do them much good, did it?

And to further the argument, didn't DNFisher actually win a (insert JYS voiceover here) a motorcar race at one point in time?

[racer2c]

And to further the argument, didn't DNFisher actually win a (insert JYS voiceover here) a motorcar race at one point in time?

As we speak Sarah is in the gym and awaiting the appointment with the plastic surgeon. I hear her manager has been calling FHM. :)

[lone_groover]

Yes indeeed. Sarah could manhandle that thing, wring its neck, get crossed-up, and slide it around on the dirt like nobody's business......and she raced cars too!

:gomer:

[Spicoli]

That's it? It's all the Danica factor?

That's pretty risky.

a) If she took herself out with the others while spinning under caution there would have been no story.

b) It remains to be seen if the casual fans can even find the next IRL race, let alone care about Danica. Unless she starts to win and win a lot soon, she may have just had her 15 minutes of fame. (what the name of the American Idol winner again?)

c) Danica drives the car, not powers it.They'll still need engines

d) Let's assume Danica lives up to the hype and turns the turnstyles. Without Honda money how long before a NASCAR team graps her? (A NASCAR fan said to me on Saturday that he'd like to see her in Cup) Short of that, how long before KK pulls her away as an IRL asset? Theoretically, he moght pay a lot to get a big star into his series (again, assuming she lives up to the hype).

I just don't see the basis for comfort on TGs behalf


TG is one strange bird, and he's never let reality get in the way of his plans. While I agree that the plans for reunification were damn close, and had a real, real good chance of happening, TG got that Danicle thing in his blood, and now its all over, I suspect.

They'll run that stupid GA setup, I've been hearing, if noby else can be bought, bribed, or conned into supplying the League/Series with motors.

Danicle will fade away, you can bank on that. So, I think we'll continue to all keep an eye towards reunification, but for now, it seems about dead - again.

If you like OW, and you are pizzed about the state of things - no sponsors, crappy attendance, lousy ratings, bad production, and a talent drain to Cup, F1 and God knows wherever else, you got one guy who bears the brunt of your unhappiness: Tony George. EVERYONE, including each of you here, knows that aunified series, with Indy as the Centerpiece, is the only way this thing gets healthy again. Indy centric? well, duh - when the series was at its peak, Indy was the center of it.

And for you gomers looking in, there is no way in hell that FTG will ever get the hardcore CCWS ffans as long as he is in charge of the series. Remember when he said we'd finally come along "kicking and screaming"? Well, guess what - we didn;t. All he is doing now is wasting his money and prolonging the inevitable.

i just hope it doesn't take another 11 years to get this thing back on all 4s.

Sad, ain't it? :shakehead

[Methanolandbrats]

Yes indeeed. Sarah could manhandle that thing, wring its neck, get crossed-up, and slide it around on the dirt like nobody's business......and she raced cars too!

:gomer: :laugh:

[Racing Truth]

TG is one strange bird, and he's never let reality get in the way of his plans. While I agree that the plans for reunification were damn close, and had a real, real good chance of happening, TG got that Danicle thing in his blood, and now its all over, I suspect.

They'll run that stupid GA setup, I've been hearing, if noby else can be bought, bribed, or conned into supplying the League/Series with motors.

Danicle will fade away, you can bank on that. So, I think we'll continue to all keep an eye towards reunification, but for now, it seems about dead - again.

If you like OW, and you are pizzed about the state of things - no sponsors, crappy attendance, lousy ratings, bad production, and a talent drain to Cup, F1 and God knows wherever else, you got one guy who bears the brunt of your unhappiness: Tony George. EVERYONE, including each of you here, knows that aunified series, with Indy as the Centerpiece, is the only way this thing gets healthy again. Indy centric? well, duh - when the series was at its peak, Indy was the center of it.

And for you gomers looking in, there is no way in hell that FTG will ever get the hardcore CCWS ffans as long as he is in charge of the series. Remember when he said we'd finally come along "kicking and screaming"? Well, guess what - we didn;t. All he is doing now is wasting his money and prolonging the inevitable.

i just hope it doesn't take another 11 years to get this thing back on all 4s.

Sad, ain't it? :shakehead

Good post. Right on, Spic. :thumbup:

[ChampCar#3]

Great posts !

I just wonder TG will do when ppl realize that DP isn't half the driver as Sarah Fisher is!! :)

[Racing Truth]

Great posts !

I just wonder TG will do when ppl realize that DP isn't half the driver as Sarah Fisher is!! :)

Well, if you're talking weight, you're right. :laugh: Talent? Come on. In rear-engine OW cars, DP has a lot more going for her thsn DNFisher.

[lone_groover]

Ah yesss...those two perennial rivals: Fat and Skinny. Racing and going to bed.

:gomer:

[racer2c]

Sarah's trying. :gomer:

http://www.sarahfisher.com/Formalred04.jpg

I saw on her website that Richard Childress hopes to have her in a Busch car before the year is out. I guess they have to wait for the sugery wounds to heal. ouch. :eek:

[racer2c]

Quick! Someone teach this fresh face to turn left and right and get her in a Champ Car fast! I think I'm in love. Oh and Ank, she's from Texas buddy! You know what that means! *elbow elbow*.

http://www.esxmotorsports.com/pictures/streetcar/street02.jpg

Link (http://www.esxmotorsports.com/streetcar.htm)

She makes DP look like the wicked witch of the west.

[lone_groover]

Oh yeah...that's right. I do recall hearing that Sarah's doggedly pursuing a 'NECKCAR ride.

:gomer:

[stroker]

y'know, at the risk of sounding like a vindicative bastard, I take some consolation in visualizing the untold millions of dollars these guys are going to piss away following FTG down the garden path....

Think of it... <Dr. Evil> Millions of dollars...

Don't say we didn't warn you folks.

[racer2c]

y'know, at the risk of sounding like a vindicative bastard, I take some consolation in visualizing the untold millions of dollars these guys are going to piss away following FTG down the garden path....

Think of it... <Dr. Evil> Millions of dollars...

Don't say we didn't warn you folks.

But how long will Honda's money be available?

[RichK]

Oh and Ank, she's from Texas buddy! You know what that means! *elbow elbow*.


Big hair?

[rabbit]

Quick! Someone teach this fresh face to turn left and right and get her in a Champ Car fast! I think I'm in love. Oh and Ank, she's from Texas buddy! You know what that means! *elbow elbow*.does she, you know, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, say no more... ;)

[Wheel-Nut]

She's from the Dallas area. That's almost like being from Michigan!

[Andrew Longman]

Getting back OT...

Reading some of GK comments on the real nature of TG I once again regret the advice I gave my son a few years back. We were at the first IRL race at Nazareth. I got free tickets and took my son, if for no other reason than to see what the forseeable future of Nazareth was going to look like (that didn't last long did it?).

As the race is about to go green TG, a woman and another couple sat down across the aisle from us. I pointed him out to my son and this normally very well behaved and morally guided 9 year old says, "Should I throw my soda at him?"

Several people around us gave a hearty laugh and encouraged him, but I told him that would not be the right thing to do. You see I got thrown out of Tiger Stadium about 20 years ago for "explaining" to a Tiger fan why he should stop throwing beer cups at me and my friend. I've tried to stay out of jail ever since.

Now I am convinced there are rare moments when principled and bold action is called for. I should have said to my son, "No, let me do it"

[stroker]

But how long will Honda's money be available?


Doesn't matter who's writing the check. Whether they stick with the current formula or go with GA power or even if they go to Silver Cup cars, they're still going to leave a trail of blood, money and body parts for as long as FTG is making the decisions.

S'croom.

[devilmaster]

"Should I throw my soda at him?"

Dangit! where did I put my Lizzerd Keyboard Insurance policy? :confused:


Now I am convinced there are rare moments when principled and bold action is called for. I should have said to my son, "No, let me do it"

Andrew, my friend, i am sure there will be enough money in the passed hat to bail you out.... just make sure you get your son to take photos of it...... LOTS of photos.... ;)

[devilmaster]

Big hair?
She packs a sidearm?

[racer2c]

She packs a sidearm?

I was thinking she knows what real BBQ is. Big hair, guns and BBQ pretty much covers Texas I think. :D

She is cute though. Too bad she only drives in a stright line. :(

[RTKar]

Kirby's a great guy to chat with, even to us "commoners",very insightful. I think he's one of the few major media folks that knows the real story. I'd love to see him do some network or major newspaper pieces on the last 10 years, open some eyes to the problem.

[mueber]

The time has irrefutably come for Champ Car to forget about the Indy 500 and to concentrate on rebuilding the Champ Car World Series and its ladder series.

Gosh, I know'd that 10 years ago. It's too bad the brilliant "businessmen" who were once CART "loyalists" can't figure that out.

The problem isn't Tony George, the problem, among other things, is people, including Carl Hass, who do business with Tony George.

[indyfan31]

It's gotta be all on Tony's terms. That's the only way he wants it. That's the way it's always been.

... and yet you keep going back you moron.

[nrc]

Kirby's a great guy to chat with, even to us "commoners",very insightful. I think he's one of the few major media folks that knows the real story. I'd love to see him do some network or major newspaper pieces on the last 10 years, open some eyes to the problem.Perhaps a guest host spot on Windbag? Maybe the entire "Gang of Four" could substitute sometime when Dave is off on vacation. That would get some blood pressures up. :D

[Ankf00]

Quick! Someone teach this fresh face to turn left and right and get her in a Champ Car fast! I think I'm in love. Oh and Ank, she's from Texas buddy! You know what that means! *elbow elbow*.

http://www.esxmotorsports.com/pictures/streetcar/street02.jpg

Link (http://www.esxmotorsports.com/streetcar.htm)

She makes DP look like the wicked witch of the west.

i'd hit it. that is minus the 10 pounds of makeup caked on...


She's from the Dallas area. That's almost like being from Michigan!
actually, Dallas is not what I would call Michigan. I, myself, prefer to allude to the $30K Millionaire Capital as "Southern Oklahoma"


dude, haha, she's from the 'burb I commute to, what a hole...

[Jervis Tetch 1]

Good piece by Gordon.

FTG.

[RTKar]

Perhaps a guest host spot on Windbag? Maybe the entire "Gang of Four" could substitute sometime when Dave is off on vacation. That would get some blood pressures up. :D

Windbag's an idea..Miller and Kirby together :thumbup:

[RacinM3]

Some people who view reunification as the only chance to save OW in America may end up seeing Danica Patrick as the final nail in the OW coffin. It appears a little bit of good press was just enough to cause FTG to push back his chair at the bargaining table.

But most just realize bargaining was never his intention. Anything that gets people talking OW before Indy is good in his book.

[Spicoli]

Some people who view reunification as the only chance to save OW in America may end up seeing Danica Patrick as the final nail in the OW coffin. It appears a little bit of good press was just enough to cause FTG to push back his chair at the bargaining table.

But most just realize bargaining was never his intention. Anything that gets people talking OW before Indy is good in his book.

Very good points.

[nrc]

Some people who view reunification as the only chance to save OW in America may end up seeing Danica Patrick as the final nail in the OW coffin. It appears a little bit of good press was just enough to cause FTG to push back his chair at the bargaining table.The question is, how will Honda respond? Will Toyota and Honda reconsider and take a flyer on Danica-mania, or will they leave Tony with the Grand Am option? If it's the latter will Rahal be content to find his own sponsorship for the IRL or will he follow Honda on to other things?

[DagoFast]

TG is one strange bird, and he's never let reality get in the way of his plans. While I agree that the plans for reunification were damn close, and had a real, real good chance of happening, TG got that Danicle thing in his blood, and now its all over, I suspect.

They'll run that stupid GA setup, I've been hearing, if noby else can be bought, bribed, or conned into supplying the League/Series with motors.

Danicle will fade away, you can bank on that. So, I think we'll continue to all keep an eye towards reunification, but for now, it seems about dead - again.

If you like OW, and you are pizzed about the state of things - no sponsors, crappy attendance, lousy ratings, bad production, and a talent drain to Cup, F1 and God knows wherever else, you got one guy who bears the brunt of your unhappiness: Tony George. EVERYONE, including each of you here, knows that aunified series, with Indy as the Centerpiece, is the only way this thing gets healthy again. Indy centric? well, duh - when the series was at its peak, Indy was the center of it.

And for you gomers looking in, there is no way in hell that FTG will ever get the hardcore CCWS ffans as long as he is in charge of the series. Remember when he said we'd finally come along "kicking and screaming"? Well, guess what - we didn;t. All he is doing now is wasting his money and prolonging the inevitable.

i just hope it doesn't take another 11 years to get this thing back on all 4s.

Sad, ain't it? :shakehead

:shakehead What's sad is you are more worried about toeknees race than he is. Toeknee has 25+ more years to play in his sandbox. You ain't "getting your race back" any time soon.

Let it go man.
Or go to TF and start the koolaid drip.

The harsh reality is ChampCar will have to rebuild on it's own, without findy.
And that's as it should be.

If they can't stage compelling races and build their own traditions, then it will die. As it should.

No one should waste another minute on "uni-fiction". There is too much to be done.

[Spicoli]

:shakehead What's sad is you are more worried about toeknees race than he is. Toeknee has 25+ more years to play in his sandbox. You ain't "getting your race back" any time soon.

Let it go man.
Or go to TF and start the koolaid drip.

The harsh reality is ChampCar will have to rebuild on it's own, without findy.
And that's as it should be.

If they can't stage compelling races and build their own traditions, then it will die. As it should.

No one should waste another minute on "uni-fiction". There is too much to be done.


:rolleyes:

right.

[FCYTravis]

Champ Car is trying to stand alone, dagofast.

12,000 people at Milwaukee and Korean street races say it's not working very well.

[devilmaster]

I think he's one of the few major media folks that knows the real story. I'd love to see him do some network or major newspaper pieces on the last 10 years, open some eyes to the problem.

I'm waiting for a few of them to collaborate on a book. The real story behind the split. Problem is, the story ain't finished yet....

[BobN]

Okay, where does FRP's Illmor purchase fit in with reunification out the window? :saywhat:

[Spicoli]

Okay, where does FRP's Illmor purchase fit in with reunification out the window? :saywhat:

Honda to necKCars? :confused:

[FCYTravis]

Honda-badged Porsche LMPs? :saywhat: :laugh:

[Spicoli]

Champ Car is trying to stand alone, dagofast.

12,000 people at Milwaukee and Korean street races say it's not working very well.

Yep. The problem is not that they can't go it alone, the problem is what will the product be?

Let me ask you this, DagoFast:

How do you describe what CCWS is to the potential motorsport fan without usoing the word Indy?

[BobN]

Honda to necKCars? :confused:

Would seem to be the logical route. He must have got it real cheap. Making any kind of purchase hanging on what FTG might do is beyond stupid.

[FCYTravis]

What Spicoli said.

Like it or not, in this country, big-time formula car racing is, in the minds of the populace, inextricably attached to Indianapolis and the 500. We can debate from here to eternity whether or not that's a good thing, why that happened and how it could change. But none of that will get us anywhere in particular.

The reality is that we can either fight the connection and tilt at windmills for another decade, or use it to our advantage. For 15 years, CART built a symbiotic relationship with the Speedway and both secured a vibrant, diverse open-wheel racing series and sustained the Brickyard - building some of its greatest traditions along the way. Together, CART and the 500 ruled the racing world. Divided, they both collapsed into obscurity, bankruptcy and irrelevance.

The lesson is clear. E pluribus unum.

Tony George's Vision, quite obviously, is too impaired to see the truth.

[racer2c]

What Spicoli said.

Like it or not, in this country, big-time formula car racing is, in the minds of the populace, inextricably attached to Indianapolis and the 500. We can debate from here to eternity whether or not that's a good thing, why that happened and how it could change. But none of that will get us anywhere in particular.

The reality is that we can either fight the connection and tilt at windmills for another decade, or use it to our advantage. For 15 years, CART built a symbiotic relationship with the Speedway and both secured a vibrant, diverse open-wheel racing series and sustained the Brickyard - building some of its greatest traditions along the way. Together, CART and the 500 ruled the racing world. Divided, they both collapsed into obscurity, bankruptcy and irrelevance.

The lesson is clear. E pluribus unum.

Tony George's Vision, quite obviously, is too impaired to see the truth.

So true, but when KK, Roger Penske and Honda can't talk sense into the prodigal son, it's time to move on.

I hope next May, when the press starts talking re-unification, KK tells it like it is. Tony George is an idiot, the press is writting it, anyone who cares, knows it and it's time he goes down with his ship.

I'd rather see Champ Cars in China than, tony George calling the shots.

FTG!

[Spicoli]

So true, but when KK, Roger Penske and Honda can't talk sense into the prodigal son, it's time to move on.

I hope next May, when the press starts talking re-unification, KK tells it like it is. Tony George is an idiot, the press is writting it, anyone who cares, knows it and it's time he goes down with his ship.

I'd rather see Champ Cars in China than, tony George calling the shots.

FTG!

1. Absolutely 100% correct. KK needs to have a sit-down with FatCarl, however.

2. He should. Looks like there can be no turnoing back. And schedule a ****ing race for that day.

3. Yep, looks like you'll get that opportunoity: China it is. But the problem is 2-fold with that: Does it translate into season-long fans? And most of us are upset that we are getting fewer and fewer races we can reasonably get to.

Sad.

[skaven]

Champ Car is trying to stand alone, dagofast.

12,000 people at Milwaukee and Korean street races say it's not working very well.

Isn't the Korean course more of a road course? A park like Monterrey and Montreal? Also, what if 150,000 show up for the race, Samsung sponsors 2 cars with top-notch drivers, etc.? I've held my tongue on the Korean/ Chineese ventures, but I feel this is a good move. Let's withhold judgement on Ansan until the checkered flags fly.

Milwaukee is worrisome though. Damn. I thought 13,832 at Phoenix was bad. :(

Furthermore, if I can't "describe what CCWS is to the potential motorsport fan without using the word Indy", which I'll grant you is the case today, I'd like to see CCWS work towards the day when we can describe CCWS without invoking the ghost of Indy.

I'd rather go down fighting than give into FTG.

This is year 2 for CCWS. After Long Beach and Monterrey, my spirits were higher than they'd been for a long time. Danicle fever and Milwaukee put things back in perspective. There's a lot of work to be done. Hopefully Portland and Cleveland will have good attendance. The infrastructure is building (Kosworth, LB, etc.).

The most poignant part of Kirby's article (for me) was the civil war talk - how it pits family vs. family. My inheritance is at stake due to FTG. Good thing I have a job. :gomer:

[FCYTravis]

I'd rather go down fighting than give into FTG.
Agreed 100%.

BTW, Milwaukee was better than Phoenix. PHX had all of 8,312.

[DagoFast]

Champ Car is trying to stand alone, dagofast.

12,000 people at Milwaukee and Korean street races say it's not working very well.

Milwaukee sure isnt, we'll have to wait and see on Korea and China.

I hate to say it, but I think open wheel cars on ovals are about dead in the US. Brand CCWS or .0rl, because most people can't tell them apart anymore, and don't care to try.

Quick! When was the last time CCWS put on a great oval race? (clue..it ain't happened yet!) When was the last time CART did? A loooonng time ago.


Yep. The problem is not that they can't go it alone, the problem is what will the product be? ((( Eggzakly! THE 64k question!)))

Let me ask you this, DagoFast:

How do you describe what CCWS is to the potential motorsport fan without usoing the word Indy?

I tell 'em the cars that race at Long Beach. ;)


So true, but when KK, Roger Penske and Honda can't talk sense into the prodigal son, it's time to move on.

I hope next May, when the press starts talking re-unification, KK tells it like it is. Tony George is an idiot, the press is writting it, anyone who cares, knows it and it's time he goes down with his ship.

I'd rather see Champ Cars in China than, tony George calling the shots.

Amen
You nailed it.

Ftg has changed visions, poster drivers, teams, engines, sanctions, traditions, Longs, Mehls, you name it.

What's the one thing he's never budged on? Not an inch. C'mon, say it all together now! HMFIC.
Now how are you gonna ever overcome that? Simple. You ain't.


ChampCar's 2007 specs can't come soon enough, and they better be great right out of the box or they are probably toast. At least they have a chance.

Now answer me a question; with FTG at the helm, how can findy be anything but eventually doomed?

[Spicoli]

Milwaukee sure isnt, we'll have to wait and see on Korea and China.

I hate to say it, but I think open wheel cars on ovals are about dead in the US. Brand CCWS or .0rl, because most people can't tell them apart anymore, and don't care to try.

Quick! When was the last time CCWS put on a great oval race? (clue..it ain't happened yet!) When was the last time CART did? A loooonng time ago.



I tell 'em the cars that race at Long Beach. ;)



Amen
You nailed it.

Ftg has changed visions, poster drivers, teams, engines, sanctions, traditions, Longs, Mehls, you name it.

What's the one thing he's never budged on? Not an inch. C'mon, say it all together now! HMFIC.
Now how are you gonna ever overcome that? Simple. You ain't.


ChampCar's 2007 specs can't come soon enough, and they better be great right out of the box or they are probably toast. At least they have a chance.

Now answer me a question; with FTG at the helm, how can findy be anything but eventually doomed?


Here's my answer: He has enough money to feed that series forever. Short of a crapwagon flying into the stands, FTG getting dirt shoveled on his face, or a family "Takeover", he'll likely remain a thorn in our sides forever.

I want CCWS to survive, but what are we to become? Street-Race losers with a crappy TV package? 4-5 races in Asia? No M/O R/A or L/S? Hell, gimme some races I can get to for ****'s sake!

6 week gaps, the last three races in "other" countries, flipping between CBS, Speed and Race /Director, they sure ask alot of their fans and potential fans. Like NeckCars, you gotta make it accessible to watch and get to - that's my ,main beef.

you're right 100% - FTG is NOT the answer, and he'll smolder away his money, pretending he's "in charge" of whatever the hell he wants to call or invent his trainwreck as that year, but he's got Indy, and that doesn;t help our cause.

KK and Company are trying, but I really am anxious to see next year. Schedule, TV package etc needs biggie improvement.

road Racing. no ovals. local involvement, consistent schedules, and lots of on track activity.

and while I'm ordering, none of that stupid drifting crap. :shakehead :shakehead

[DagoFast]

Here's my answer: He has enough money to feed that series forever. Short of a crapwagon flying into the stands, FTG getting dirt shoveled on his face, or a family "Takeover", he'll likely remain a thorn in our sides forever.

I want CCWS to survive, but what are we to become? Street-Race losers with a crappy TV package? 4-5 races in Asia? No M/O R/A or L/S? Hell, gimme some races I can get to for ****'s sake!

6 week gaps, the last three races in "other" countries, flipping between CBS, Speed and Race /Director, they sure ask alot of their fans and potential fans. Like NeckCars, you gotta make it accessible to watch and get to - that's my ,main beef.

you're right 100% - FTG is NOT the answer, and he'll smolder away his money, pretending he's "in charge" of whatever the hell he wants to call or invent his trainwreck as that year, but he's got Indy, and that doesn;t help our cause.

KK and Company are trying, but I really am anxious to see next year. Schedule, TV package etc needs biggie improvement.

road Racing. no ovals. local involvement, consistent schedules, and lots of on track activity.

and while I'm ordering, none of that stupid drifting crap. :shakehead :shakehead


Preach on brother Spicoli! Can I get a hallelelujah?!

Thats why I don't GAF about findy. It's a lost cause. And not worth any of my time or energy. Hasn't been since '96. (but I still grieved for it until about '98.)

The rest of your thoughts are dead on. I hope GF and KK spend their time FIXING whats wrong and not ONE minute on the dope in speedway. As I said earlier, there is MUCH to do.

Whether it get's done or how it works out, we will have to wait and see.

History has shown that change is inevitable.Sometimes you can't outsmart the market. There have been smart guys that never thought "talkies" would replace silent movies.

CART was an amazing thing. The planets were lined up just right and there was an incredible amount of (dumb) luck.

Perhaps with a little luck, and a lot of work, ChampCar can recapture that magic.

Perhaps not.
The jury is still out, but *we* WILL come to a decision.

I figure worst case scenario; nature abhors a vacumn. If there is a need, SOMETHING will come along to fill it.

Sadly, it will be too late for some of us.

That's the real tragedy in this whole cluster fook.

And why I'll never forgive the traitors who torpedoed CART to embrace the false idol that is FTG and findy.

[mueber]

As per usual, this has turned into a spitefest.

Despite some pointless comparisons between Allmandinger and Danica Patrick, the fundamental point of the article is that it is time to move forward. That’s a great point. It was a great point ten years ago when I first made it. Unfortunately a lot of money, time, and talent was been wasted over the last ten years obsessing over Gomerville that could have been invested in the Series.


Can we now stop obsessing about Boy George and move forward? And if we can’t, can we expect it of the management, owners, sponsors and participants?

[NismoZ]

No

[skaven]

YES

The CCWS 2007 spec needs to be good.

[cart7]

Here's my answer: He has enough money to feed that series forever. Short of a crapwagon flying into the stands, FTG getting dirt shoveled on his face, or a family "Takeover", he'll likely remain a thorn in our sides forever.

I want CCWS to survive, but what are we to become? Street-Race losers with a crappy TV package? 4-5 races in Asia? No M/O R/A or L/S? Hell, gimme some races I can get to for ****'s sake!

6 week gaps, the last three races in "other" countries, flipping between CBS, Speed and Race /Director, they sure ask alot of their fans and potential fans. Like NeckCars, you gotta make it accessible to watch and get to - that's my ,main beef.

you're right 100% - FTG is NOT the answer, and he'll smolder away his money, pretending he's "in charge" of whatever the hell he wants to call or invent his trainwreck as that year, but he's got Indy, and that doesn;t help our cause.

KK and Company are trying, but I really am anxious to see next year. Schedule, TV package etc needs biggie improvement.

road Racing. no ovals. local involvement, consistent schedules, and lots of on track activity.

and while I'm ordering, none of that stupid drifting crap. :shakehead :shakehead


Exactly what I fear. As a consumer I'd have little interest in a series that looked similar to what you described.

I realize it's not possible to return to the glory days, ever. Nor even something closely resembling what once was. That's the bad part, what materializes out of this will probably be of no interest to me and years of fandom is down the tubes.

Thanks ftg. :(

[dando]

Tony who? I'm Indy free from now on.

-Kevin

[Racing Truth]

Champ Car is trying to stand alone, dagofast.

12,000 people at Milwaukee and Korean street races say it's not working very well.

You just don't know what Ansan means.

[KLang]

You just don't know what Ansan means.

It could mean a whole lot if it leads to sponsorship by someone like Samsung or LG.

[Racing Truth]

BTW: While this is on the ChampCar site, have we had anything resembling an official statement from either side saying talks are over?

[Racing Truth]

It could mean a whole lot if it leads to sponsorship by someone like Samsung or LG.

One race in Ansan (or Beijing) that will likely be forgotten almost as soon as it ends will do that? Color me doubtful.

[KLang]

One race in Ansan (or Beijing) that will likely be forgotten almost as soon as it ends will do that? Color me doubtful.

Color me optimistic. :p

[Racing Truth]

BTW: While this is on the ChampCar site, have we had anything resembling an official statement from either side saying talks are over?

Seriously, we're acting like there's been an official end to talks. Unless I've missed it, no such document exists.

Could this not be yet more posturing? "We don't need you Tony if you won't play ball." Mind you, I'm not at all hopeful. But this is OW racing, where logic need not apply.

[racer2c]

Seriously, we're acting like there's been an official end to talks. Unless I've missed it, no such document exists.

Could this not be yet more posturing? "We don't need you Tony if you won't play ball." Mind you, I'm not at all hopeful. But this is OW racing, where logic need not apply.

Could be. I don't think Honda and Toyota are going to hinge their involvement with the IRL on Saint Danicle. As soon as she comes in 13th a few times, Tony's problems will seem bigger than ever.

[oddlycalm]

Seriously, we're acting like there's been an official end to talks. Unless I've missed it, no such document exists. KK basically said the same thing as Kirby wrote before he engaged in talks this year. The bottom line was that it was pointless but that he would do it out of respect for those that had set up the meetings. There doesn't need to be a document, it was over before it started.

TG is only interested in his track and his race, and all the rest of it, the teams, drivers, manufacturers are nothing but the supporting cast. Like his grandfather he doesn't care about deaths, injuries, organizations, public sentiment or the media, he just cares about his track and his race. Anybody that remembers the USAC Trail should not be surprised at what happened at Phoenix, Homestead, or any of the rest of the decade of failed events. The fact is, this same state of affairs has been going on for a very long time outside of the brief period where CART wrested enough power away from the IMS to bring in a breath of fresh air.

That said, the general public doesn't care, isn't aware of any of it, and it doesn't take anything more than an extra loud fart to get them to stop and pay attention. Danicle fever was first load fart out of Indy in a very long time, but that's all it was.

oc

[Spicoli]

Could be. I don't think Honda and Toyota are going to hinge their involvement with the IRL on Saint Danicle. As soon as she comes in 13th a few times, Tony's problems will seem bigger than ever.

10-4 good buddy. wonder what Yoda will be announcing this weekend?

[dando]

10-4 good buddy. wonder what Yoda will be announcing this weekend?
The other burning question is whether Clarke has to fall on his sword since he failed in his mission? :gomer:

-Kevin

[NismoZ]

Maybe Penske saves FTG's ass by buying into Ilmor to build spec engines for his whole show in '07. :eek:

[Andrew Longman]

Maybe Penske saves FTG's ass by buying into Ilmor to build spec engines for his whole show in '07. :eek:


Could be. but neither Penske or Ilmore will be writing check to fund drives by Danica, Franchitti, Kanaan, Dixon or others. At that point they will follow whatever little money there is.

[Ankf00]

It could mean a whole lot if it leads to sponsorship by someone like Samsung or LG.

is that supposed to be like the british and german sponsors that came along after the euro experiment?

[skaven]

is that supposed to be like the british and german sponsors that came along after the euro experiment?

EXACTLY :gomer:

Even though I'd gather that the Korean and Chineese racing markets are less saturated than the British and German markets.

This time around, it'll have to well executed. Less margin of error, but I think KK et al are less error prone.

[stroker]

Here's my answer: He has enough money to feed that series forever. Short of a crapwagon flying into the stands, FTG getting dirt shoveled on his face, or a family "Takeover", he'll likely remain a thorn in our sides forever.

I want CCWS to survive, but what are we to become? Street-Race losers with a crappy TV package? 4-5 races in Asia? No M/O R/A or L/S? Hell, gimme some races I can get to for ****'s sake!

6 week gaps, the last three races in "other" countries, flipping between CBS, Speed and Race /Director, they sure ask alot of their fans and potential fans. Like NeckCars, you gotta make it accessible to watch and get to - that's my ,main beef.

you're right 100% - FTG is NOT the answer, and he'll smolder away his money, pretending he's "in charge" of whatever the hell he wants to call or invent his trainwreck as that year, but he's got Indy, and that doesn;t help our cause.

KK and Company are trying, but I really am anxious to see next year. Schedule, TV package etc needs biggie improvement.

road Racing. no ovals. local involvement, consistent schedules, and lots of on track activity.

and while I'm ordering, none of that stupid drifting crap. :shakehead :shakehead

By God, we ought to take these words, put them on business cards, and if anyone ever asks us why we hate FTG and why so much, we should just hand them over.

In fact, we should mail a copy of this to every f*****g sports editor in the country.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I love how building sponsorship interest around a solitary race in Indianapolis=a bad strategy, but building sponsorship interest around a solitary race in Korea=a good one.