wtf?

[Ankf00]

exclusion ? :saywhat:

can you say crock of ****?

[TrueBrit]

exclusion ? :saywhat:

can you say crock of ****?

Can you say "don't drive through a red light...."? :gomer:

[Ankf00]

stop n go, exclusion is excessive

[TrueBrit]

Depends what the rule book says. If it says exclusion and not drive-through then that is pretty much all over.

Stupid rule no doubt, but even more of a stupid move by JPM.

[Insomniac]

Depends what the rule book says. If it says exclusion and not drive-through then that is pretty much all over.

Stupid rule no doubt, but even more of a stupid move by JPM.

More like the team.

[spinner26]

Why do you stop light pit road with the leader coming out? Daly said it best, Montoya just got screwed by the pace car. Had he been allowed to finish I think he woulda won.

[B3RACER1a]

I'm not familier with the rules concerning that area. Why would the pit exit be red lighted?

If he stopped, he would have started so far back anyways...most likely no points.

They had to pit Kimi first because of where he is in the points. Montoya just got the shaft.

[Mike Kellner]

I just finished the tape. JPM got screwed by McLaren. I suspect he quit thinking when they pitted Kimmi first with the Safety Car out while he was leading, which is why he ignored the red light. He also passed someone under yellow getting back in line.

While it was smart tactics regarding the WC points race, it was bad strategy team wise. I suspect we just saw a team war start. I hope Ron enjoyed the Senna/Prost rivalry, because I suspect a new one just started.

This illuminates the flaw in F1 pit rules with one pit for two cars. If your cars are both doing well, and the Safety Car comes out, you have to screw one of them.

mk

[FTG]

I don't understand why the rules don't allow a driver to exit and join in the line behind the, **** it I'm going to call it, the pace car. I didn't see anything dangerous or unfair when he exited the pits.

[NismoZ]

Perhaps Bobby Unser should be consulted about the "blend line" rule? Sorry, but I think racing's "pinnacle" just uncovered a flaw. Plenty of blame to go around.

[Dr. Corkski]

Montoya commented, "I'm disappointed because I was so close to winning my first race for the team. As a team we all try so hard to be the best but nobody is perfect and not being told to stop immediately after the Safety Car was deployed was made worse by me missing the red light which ultimately was the end of my race. I will quickly put all this behind me because I love Indianapolis and I'm really looking forward to racing there next week even though I will be somewhat penalised for having to qualify last."You really think Uncle Ron just forgot to tell the LEADER of the race that the safety car is out? But McLaren doesn't use team orders and stuff, because Uncle Ron's going to heaven or something. :gomer:

[Spicoli]

You really think Uncle Ron just forgot to tell the LEADER of the race that the safety car is out? But McLaren doesn't use team orders and stuff, because Uncle Ron's going to heaven or something. :gomer:


:rofl:

[Mike Kellner]

I am convinced that they brought Kimmi in first because he was closer to the lead in the WC. I bet JPM is as well. I think this is going to be an interesting season. The Silly Season might be interesting as well. How long is JPM's contract?

mk

[Methanolandbrats]

You really think Uncle Ron just forgot to tell the LEADER of the race that the safety car is out? But McLaren doesn't use team orders and stuff, because Uncle Ron's going to heaven or something. :gomer: That and Montoya is a moron. He almost drove it into the wall exiting the pits, maybe that's why he did'nt notice the light.

[Andrew Longman]

No doubt that McClaren could have done this differently and that JPM shouldn't have blown through the light, but F1 created the situation by have bizarre rules in place for use of the safety car and manditory draconian penalties for missing the light.

I suppose F1 is just too stuck up to look at the example of CCWS or NASCAR or the IRL or you name it, to learn how to control the field simply and logically using a "pace" car.

-- One lap qualifying
-- Two race engines, motivating care out of the points to retire early
-- Two race banishment
-- Exclusion punishment
-- No tire changes causing exploding suspensions and other early retirements

I could go on, but all take cars off the track. Tell me again what the fans pay to see?

[Methanolandbrats]

Tell me again what the fans pay to see? Really loud cars go really fast until they break or are disqualified :gomer:

[Mike Kellner]

He almost drove it into the wall exiting the pits, maybe that's why he did'nt notice the light.

Wasn't that his first pit stop? Then, he was trying to get out ahead of one of the Renaults, I think it was Alonso. It was a race for position, and passing is hard there, so he went for it. He just got on it a bit too hard.

I'd rather watch drivers who try too hard than those who don't try hard enough.

mk

[Dirty Sanchez]

Ron has a biggie hard-on for Finnish drivers... he likes 'em sober or drunked up apparently. Juanita tarting himself up so's he can fit in the car isn't gonna be enough to break up this love affair.

all the accounts I've read don't point to team orders anyway tho'... and according to insider Matchett, there is no drama. just a poor decision and unfortunate circumstances.

I don't think Juan will ever put a championship season together.

[Mike Kellner]

-- One lap qualifying
-- Two race engines, motivating care out of the points to retire early
-- Two race banishment
-- Exclusion punishment
-- No tire changes causing exploding suspensions and other early retirements

All of this is to save money, which is F1 is impossible. Teams spend what they have, and they have a lot. If you force them to stop spending money one place, they will spend it somewhere else, except for the punishments, which are over ther top, and caused by out of control officials. The tire and engine rules have to go. I can see making people start the car they qualify, with the same tires & motor, but the rest is too much.

What did Montoya mean by, "even though I will be somewhat penalised for having to qualify last.". Are they going to penalize him further?

mk

[Dirty Sanchez]

agreed. there is no cost containment in F1. the only meaningful cost containment measure they could take would be to eliminate the tire wars, imo. a spec tire reduces tire testing... and while testing generates revenue for Ferrari (how... I do not know!) I'm sure other teams would see some savings.

I don't see where the penalties are excessive at all. you cheat or have the capacity to cheat, rather, you get banned from races. simple. BAR got off easy, imo. you break a rule such as leaving the pits when they are closed, you get excluded. I agree that the event marshalling should be standardized and should follow the series tho' (wasn't this a proposal at one time?)

I did not see Juan's quote... but I'm assuming he's complaining about having to qualify early for the next race (as its based on classification from the previous event). not ideal... but also probably not quite the disadvantage that driver's make it out to be either.

[ChampCar#3]

Maybe because of the one pit per team rule and for just when the pace car is out. That all cars are allowed to stop during the yellow but must get in order before the yellow came out.
Too simple?

[Dr. Corkski]

When the rules take Ferrari down, they are the greatest ever because that evil red empire deserves to burn in hell. When it DQs an overrated #2 driver, they are suddenly everything that's wrong with the world. :gomer:

The pit exit was closed when #2 was coming out because they didn't want cars to be racing for track position as they tried to blend back in with the field, like what happened with Cubehead and #2. If you think about it, a car further back could have easily made up a bunch of position and even jump into the lead by driving through the pit-lane instead of following the SC, and end up taking the lead that way or making up a lap.

IIRC Bourdais made up a few positions at Long Beach by pitting just as the SC came out.

Timberlake's car was basically sitting in front of the pit wall, in a fairly dangerous position. The SC shouldn't have been a total surprise. Both the McLarens were due for one more stop, so Uncle Ron should have been prepared to call them both in. Even if both had to come in at the same time and Kimi had to wait, he would have still rejoined in 2nd place because the 3rd place car was a good half a minute behind and also had to make his stop.

[TorontoWorker]

It's also been admitted that JPM just missed the pit in as the SC left it's pit out parking position. Kimi because he was a few seconds behind was able to get the call to come into pitlane in time. This situation isn't about being screwed by Ron or anyone else - it's called bad luck.

I think JPM forgot about the light quite frankly and didn't even clue in to the fact that it is located on drivers right about four feet off the ground right at the pit out.

If you look at the tape or replay again: You'll notice that he wasn't even close getting in front of the SC car. In fact he sort of kinda bullies his way in front of DC at station 2 which is in another postal code away from pit out in distance. JPM would have had to be ENTERING pit out before the SC car crosses the start finish. When the SC car crosses the start finish line - sensors turn the green light to red on pitlane. If you have NOT had your transmitter get across before this your toast if you don't stop. If you get caught out in a situation where 5 feet from the light it goes red and you can't stop - the proceedure is to stop where you can in pit out and wait until the pack goes by. Charlie Whitting would most likely let this type of transgression go by.

But if you go sailing by a red light that you *could* have stopped for and then decide where the heck you should fit in, almost as if you were back racing states side... well you get what you get. This illegal entry onto the track has been a black flag and exclusion rule since the 60's.

I don't get the hissy fit around here? JPM had bad luck and then his brain shutdown. It's not his first F1 race nor is it his first screw up.

[cameraman]

I don't get the hissy fit around here? JPM had bad luck and then his brain shutdown.

Hell, even Montoya agrees that he screwed up.
If someone with his ego can admit that it he was at fault I can not see why anyone here is complaining.

[Dr. Corkski]

Hell, even Montoya agrees that he screwed up.
If someone with his ego can admit that it he was at fault I can not see why anyone here is complaining.Ank must have been sober when he posted that. He couldn't think clearly without the alcohol. :gomer:

[Mike Kellner]

I am not saying he didn't violate the rules. I am saying, he got screwed. McLaren should have brought him in first. He was leading. My own opinion is, he lost it when they brought Kimmi in first, suspected the worst, and subsequently wasn't thinking clearly when he blew past the red light, and bulled his way into line, passing a few cars. I didn't realize the red light deal, but guessed right off that he was in trouble for passing under yellow to get behind Kimmi. Yes, he did violate two rules, but a stop and go before the restart would have been sufficient. That would have put him at the end of the lead lap, and cost 5 or 6 positions at race end, That is severe enough. As someone else said; people pay to see their favorite cars & drivers on the track. Nitpicky rules enforcement and severe penalties for violations are not what has made F1 the big deal that it is.

I think they need to change the pit setup if they are going to have a safety car, because it is unfair to to force a team with two cars in the points to decide who gets screwed. They both should have been able to pit at the same time. That would have preserved McLaren's 1-2, and maybe given us a good race at the end.

Does this count as a hissy fit?

mk

[Andrew Longman]

Toronto Worker: No disagreement with your assessment of the facts or the rule.

I simply think the rule is unnecessary and prone to produce "unlucky" outcomes. And I think an "exclusion" is over the top given the crime and results in screwing most the fans and sponsors who are paying ALL the bills.

Granted JPM may have thought at the moment he was racing stateside, but stateside they run this in a way that does not produce this "unlucky" result.

Add the rule that says you have to share a pit stall with your teammate and it makes the situation all the more ridiculous. With two pit boxes KR and JPM could have pit together and there would be no mystery about team orders.

I guess I simply have to ask who this rule and penalty benefit? How did it produce a better on track product? What is so unsafe about blending into the field at pit out? I don't seriously think you can take a detour through the pits and improve position without violating pit lane speed limits. If so, the pace car is too slow to keep tire temps up.

[cameraman]

I am not saying he didn't violate the rules. I am saying, he got screwed. McLaren should have brought him in first. He was leading. He was past the pit entrance when the SC came out, Kimi wasn't. If both had gone around they would both have been at the end of the field.
.. but guessed right off that he was in trouble for passing under yellow Actually he knew he was screwed when he reentered in traffic. You can not do that and he knew that.
Nitpicky rules enforcement and severe penalties for violations are not what has made F1 the big deal that it is. The rule has been there as long as the Safety Car concept has.
I think they need to change the pit setup if they are going to have a safety car, because it is unfair to to force a team with two cars in the points to decide who gets screwed. They both should have been able to pit at the same time. That would have preserved McLaren's 1-2, and maybe given us a good race at the end. Every team is on a different pit schedule, it was just chance that the crash occured the moment prior to McLaren starting their sequence. That is racing, that is life. Quit trying to turn F1 into NASCAR homogeneity.

[Dr. Corkski]

Just about every driver on the grid has had bad luck, #2 just usually compounds his bad luck because he's too much of an idiot to deal with it. Everyone is subjected to the same rules, and no one else had any problems with it. The 2 pit stalls crap is completely irelevant in this case as both McLarens would have exited the pits in 1-2 even if Kimi had to wait for #2 to get serviced.

The red light was there to prevent cars from racing back into queue, like #2 did when he jumped back into the field in 2nd place right behind after Kimi (after passing a car under the SC, another blatant violation of the rules), and he managed to do that having refuelled.