More San Jose greatness

[Racing Truth]

From the MSNBC article Travis linked, the following might be the dumbest thing I've EVER READ.

"Mr. Singleton says he still expects 30,000 on July 29, 40,000 on July 30 and 50,000 on July 31. He does concede that those numbers include support personnel, volunteers and credentialed media. "

They include support personnel, volunteers, and credentialed media? WTF? :saywhat: Have they learned from the Tony George Attendance Count Playbook? :gomer:

Up next, the GP of Tashkent, Uzbekistan, w/ a great crowd of 30,000, gov't officials, Uzbek press, volunteers, and others included. :gomer:

Both series =teh suck.

[pchall]

If the IRL gets to count the Red Hat Brigade, why shouldn't Champ Car count folks who actually care enough to help them put on their races?

[RichK]

I'd guess he probably had those numbers as an estimate for food vendors, parking, restrooms and traffic.

[Racing Truth]

If the IRL gets to count the Red Hat Brigade, why shouldn't Champ Car count folks who actually care enough to help them put on their races?

You're right, of course. BUTTTTT, the point is that if you think the likes of SJ will bring back Champ Car, well, think twice.

[KLang]

Both series =teh suck.

IMO you are posting at the wrong forum then. Right at the top of the page it says 'forums for the champcar enthusiast'.

Lots of pissing and moaning about a race that hasn't been held yet. :shakehead

[Racing Truth]

IMO you are posting at the wrong forum then. Right at the top of the page it says 'forums for the champcar enthusiast'.

Lots of pissing and moaning about a race that hasn't been held yet. :shakehead

Look, I know reality =teh suck, but if you look, reasonably and objectively, at the prospects for both series, it ain't pretty.

FWIW: I think ChampCar is better off than the IRL (not that that says much) simply b/c they DO have a plan, whatever I think of the merits.

[JT265]

Look, I know reality =teh suck, but if you look, reasonably and objectively, at the prospects for both series, it ain't pretty.

FWIW: I think ChampCar is better off than the IRL (not that that says much) simply b/c they DO have a plan, whatever I think of the merits.

And as I said yesterday, forward YOUR plan for world domination to CCWS. They will be more than happy to look into it.

Honest.

[Racing Truth]

And as I said yesterday, forward YOUR plan for world domination to CCWS. They will be more than happy to look into it.

Honest.

Fine.

1. Apparently, the product isn't selling. You can throw out as many business, ROI theories you want, but if the product's not selling...

2. Market the drivers. People don't care nearly as much about plans, "visions," business models, etc. than they do about the men (or women) who go down the concrete canyons.

3. Abandoning the N.A. markets, or abandoning good courses for SJ, Denver, etc. will NOT solve a damn thing. See #1.

Easier said than done? You bet, but the current plan just doesn't strike me as sound either.

[KLang]

Abandoning the N.A. markets, or abandoning good courses for SJ, Denver, etc. will NOT solve a damn thing.

If they only race at venues where they lose money there won't be anything left to watch but the earl. Why is that so hard for some to understand? If they don't at least break even at some point we will have NOTHING.

[Racing Truth]

If they only race at venues where they lose money there won't be anything left to watch but the earl. Why is that so hard for some to understand? If they don't at least break even at some point we will have NOTHING.

And then what? Great, we break even, live to fight on. That IS a good thing. But it doesn't fix underlying problems, like people not making a serious effort to see ChampCar's at non-street events.

[JT265]

And then what? Great, we break even, live to fight on. That IS a good thing. But it doesn't fix underlying problems, like people not making a serious effort to see ChampCar's at non-street events.

You won't get an arguement from me on what you're saying, I jumped into the yuan discussion the other day simply because it's a new event, and you can be sure that Ansan is paying large for the rights to hold it. Does it curl my toes and make me faint?

Hardly. Would I rather see the natural terrain courses back? Absolutely. Remember tho' that everyone from track owner to promoter to sanctioning body needs to sing from the same songbook in order for anything to work, and sadly starting with MO that hasn't been the case. However, if we continue to follow the path of least resistance we will be in a place I'm not really fond of, IE: All streets, all the time. Having spent a lot of time at every RC we used to run on, I would trade any of them for a downtown setting (with the exception of Long Beach, I'm funny that way).

[skaven]

And then what? Great, we break even, live to fight on. That IS a good thing. But it doesn't fix underlying problems, like people not making a serious effort to see ChampCar's at non-street events.

I realize I am probably wasting my time here... but you have to respect how damaged and bankrupt CART was in 2003. The struggle for survival against enemies within and without drove off all but the most loyal fans. Even enthusiasts weren't very enthusiastic about the last few seasons and this season doesn't have great car counts either.

No one likes the loss of RA, LS, but that, in my opinion, is not the underlying problem. IMO, the underlying problems are (1) a perceived lack of stability which CCWS is addressing and (2) small car counts of stale cars on courses and configurations that make it hard to pass. Stability will lead to more sponsorship opportunites. The 2007 spec should help get "racing" back into the races. If the racing is compelling, then TV and attendance will take care of itself.

I am holding out for the 2007 season as I want to see the new spec and the racing it is meant to encourage. CCWS is trying to break even this year and live to fight on. 2006 will be more of the same.

The "line in the sand" concept is used here a lot. I think that line will continue to be very fluid over the next couple of years. The 2007 season with the new spec is the make or break moment - again, my opinion.

If I were you, I'd consider hibernating for this and next season, as it will be more of the same. I may or may not like it, but I can appreciate this season for what it is.

[ChampCar#3]

7th Gear all over again?

[Sean O'Gorman]

MO, the underlying problems are (1) a perceived lack of stability which CCWS is addressing and (2) small car counts of stale cars on courses and configurations that make it hard to pass. Stability will lead to more sponsorship opportunites. The 2007 spec should help get "racing" back into the races. If the racing is compelling, then TV and attendance will take care of itself.

I agree 100%, and this is what I've been saying for years. At most events, even at the good tracks, the quality of racing has gone down. Drivers have become more unknown, and you can't follow them up the pipeline. Really, it is more of a very expensive private hobby than it is professional motorsport. Thus people lose interest.

Apparently the owners of Champ Car have decided these past few years that the problem is not the product, but rather the people who watch it, so now they are moving the outdated cars to venues that are even worse for racing, thus turning off even more of the current and potential fanbase.

That is where the problem lies, and that is what needs to be fixed if Champ Car is going to have a bright future.

[Racing Truth]

I agree 100%, and this is what I've been saying for years. At most events, even at the good tracks, the quality of racing has gone down. Drivers have become more unknown, and you can't follow them up the pipeline. Thus people lose interest.

Apparently the owners of Champ Car have decided these past few years that the problem is not the product, but rather the people who watch it, so now they are moving the outdated cars to venues that are even worse for racing, thus turning off even more of the current and potential fanbase.

That is where the problem lies, and that is what needs to be fixed if Champ Car is going to have a bright future.

:thumbup: Well said. It CAN be done too.

[Winston Wolfe]

I agree 100%, and this is what I've been saying for years. At most events, even at the good tracks, the quality of racing has gone down. Drivers have become more unknown, and you can't follow them up the pipeline. Really, it is more of a very expensive private hobby than it is professional motorsport. Thus people lose interest.

Apparently the owners of Champ Car have decided these past few years that the problem is not the product, but rather the people who watch it, so now they are moving the outdated cars to venues that are even worse for racing, thus turning off even more of the current and potential fanbase.

That is where the problem lies, and that is what needs to be fixed if Champ Car is going to have a bright future.

Sean o' - "drivers have become more unknown..... and you cant follow them up the pipeline" ????

Vasser = ??? see resume
Tracy = ???? see resume
DaMatta = ???? see resume
Wilson = ex F3000 and F1 driver
SeaBass = ex F3000 Champ and CCWS Star and Champ ?
Bruno = ex F3000, Multi Race winner on "Best" team in CCWS ?
'Dinger = home grown, American, Atlantics Champ, Barber Dodge Champ
RHR - see "Dinger....more of same
Mario D - Indy Lights Grad, multiple race winner, Rookie of the Year
Tagliani - Atlantics since '96 - race winner - popular team driver, CCWS race winner
Cookie Boy - Indy lights Champ in '99 - Atlantics winner - Top team driver today.
Spearafico , Wirdheim = hardly wankers, or nobody's with Euro experience.

Sure, there are the Phillipe's of the world, but when HASN'T there been ???

Ride buyer's ALWAYS exist, but even the mildest follower of OW racing in north america or Europe sees there are plenty of "names" who have made it through "the pipeline".....

Your point regarding moving an outdated cars to venues which are worse for racing holds some merit.... but given the current financial drain, lack of TV contract, lack of venues willing to pony up a sanctioning fee, and sponsors not exactly knocking down the door, I have to believe that KK and the fellas know a little bit more than most of us do about running a business.

Heck, look at how many CCWS fans and posters here were willing to lay down and get back into bed with the man who singlehandedly has spent that last few years tring to deliver the "death blow" to our preferred form of OW racing in NA by bringing his hammer in, EVERY DAY.... And this was just the annual press hoping for a unified OW series. Remove the Danica factor, and we'd still be hearing about it. Most likely though, the press is back to covering NASCAR and we wont hear much about CCWS or EARL until there is another Brack-like wreck in the EARL, or Danica actually WINS something!

"Salad days are over" - time to realize that we are still not that far away from the bankruptcy hearings and we are still in recovery....

I'm showing my support and I'll be in Santa Fe for the drifting competition, which is being supported by a race with a bunch of no-name drivers that no one cares about in a bunch of outdated vehicles from the 90's, in a parking lot, more suited for an Auto-X....but they'll be cold beers, nice sun, plenty of scenery and oh yeah.... the sound of turbos and fast cars!!!!

Not exactly what I want either, but it sure beats the alternative, which is "ALL .1RL, ALL THE TIME"....

[cart7]

The reason some of us were hoping for a reunification, merger, whatever (under the right conditions, ie:NO TG running the thing) was the hope that maybe, just maybe, with a unified series, the Nat. Terrain RC's could be looked at again instead of tossing them out in favor of Pacific rim street races. Races that only the few that have got a lot of $$ can afford to attend.

JMO of course. ;) :gomer:

[pchall]

Drivers have become more unknown, and you can't follow them up the pipeline. Really, it is more of a very expensive private hobby than it is professional motorsport. Thus people lose interest.



Well, let's just rename them all Andretti, Unser, Foyt, and O'Gorman and we'll know eggzactly where our jackasses comed from. ;)

[skaven]

I agree 100%.

Holy. :eek: Case Closed. :D


Apparently the owners of Champ Car have decided these past few years that the problem is not the product, but rather the people who watch it, so now they are moving the outdated cars to venues that are even worse for racing, thus turning off even more of the current and potential fanbase.

That is where the problem lies, and that is what needs to be fixed if Champ Car is going to have a bright future.

Obviously they feel there is a problem with the product if they intend to test 2 and 3 cars in the tunnel to "improve the product." I think they just decided that they had to wait a realistic amount of time to implement the changes. 2007 can't come soon enough.

I reserve my right to wait until the middle of the 2007 season before throwing CCWS under the bus. I guess we're stuck with each other and our opposing viewpoints until then. :gomer:

[cameraman]

Drivers have become more unknown, and you can't follow them up the pipeline.

And there are 21 entries in the Totota Atlantic race at Portland this weekend, have you even bothered to check it out?

[Dr. Corkski]

And there are 21 entries in the Totota Atlantic race at Portland this weekend, have you even bothered to check it out?Tell that to the Champ Car owners.

[mapguy]

Drivers have become more unknown, and you can't follow them up the pipeline.

Complete and utter BS. The only reason why I became a CART fan was due to Paul Tracy. My parent's lived within a 20 minute drive of Mosport. I remember some young, fat, teen driving the living crap out of a F Ford. That was PT. I also remember that same kid (same age as me...) kicking ass in a 800hp Can-Am Frisbee at 18. I followed his career (as well as the late Greg Moore) all the way to the top. If it wasn't for PT I would not be watching ChampCar right now.

This has nothing to do with the 'pipeline', more to do with the NASCARization of the definiton of 'motor racing'.

[RichK]

I realize I am probably wasting my time here...

Not at all. Great post!

[cameraman]

Tell that to the Champ Car owners.

The associate sponsor on Unser's car is PKV Racing. Ever heard of it?

And Andrew Ranger and Ronnie Bremer both drove Atlantics last year.

[Sean O'Gorman]

To those who argue my pipeline post, consider this.

Yes the Toyota Atlantic races are on TV on a one week tape delay (I never miss a race, I think I've always enjoyed Atlantics more than any other open wheel series), but what about the rest. Oh wait, Champ Car doesn't have any other steps on their ladder.

So lets look at the rest of the series. When was the last time you saw a Star Mazda race aired within a month of it actually happening, at a decent time of day too? When was the last time F2000 was on TV? Has Formula BMW or Formula Renault ever been on TV?


Vasser = ??? see resume
Tracy = ???? see resume
DaMatta = ???? see resume
Wilson = ex F3000 and F1 driver
SeaBass = ex F3000 Champ and CCWS Star and Champ ?
Bruno = ex F3000, Multi Race winner on "Best" team in CCWS ?
'Dinger = home grown, American, Atlantics Champ, Barber Dodge Champ
RHR - see "Dinger....more of same
Mario D - Indy Lights Grad, multiple race winner, Rookie of the Year
Tagliani - Atlantics since '96 - race winner - popular team driver, CCWS race winner
Cookie Boy - Indy lights Champ in '99 - Atlantics winner - Top team driver today.
Spearafico , Wirdheim = hardly wankers, or nobody's with Euro experience.

Tracy and Vasser were products of the late 80s/early 90s, hardly applicable now. Wilson, Bourdais, and Junquiera came from a series that you can no longer follow in the US. Whether or not the Spendificos are wankers or not is irrelevent since they never run up front in a Champ Car race. That just leaves Allmendinger, RHR, Dominguez, Tagliani, and Servia as top drivers that came from a CART ladder series in the past six years. You don't see a problem with that?

And that doesn't even address the issue of karting, "racing's greatest kept secret." :rolleyes: There is a reason why NASCAR and F1 are so successful, and it is mostly about the people.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot Ranger and Bremer (assuming he still has a ride) in my list, since you didn't include it.

[Dr. Corkski]

The associate sponsor on Unser's car is PKV Racing. Ever heard of it?Just shows even the series owner has not been paying attention to the feeders that last 2 years, because he is wasting his money on a mediocre driver with a famous name.


And Andrew Ranger and Ronnie Bremer both drove Atlantics last year.$$$ > talent in both cases, and that's considering both are fairly good drivers.

[Napoleon]

They include support personnel, volunteers, and credentialed media?

That has been widly done for years, including at Cleveland.

[Sean O'Gorman]

$$$ > talent in both cases, and that's considering both are fairly good drivers.

There is nothing wrong with drivers buying rides, but at some point in the ladder, there has to be some sort of value for a sponsor to get involved. Currently it barely even applies to Champ Car.

Street races don't fix this. Overseas races don't fix this.

[oddlycalm]

CCWS faces a real and immediate challenge. The truth is that they are in danger of losing the asset they valued most, the fan base. The races are barely interesting even to committed long time fans from what I am reading on the forums.

I have no idea what would bring the road courses back. Maybe it will take the EARL going after MO and RA to get CCWS fired up on those venues. When challenged by the EARL for races at the Portland and recently Long Beach, CCWS mobilized and handled the situation in first rate style.

After securing the race in Portland for three more years and a big push in promotion and business sponsorship ticket sales are up 15% and while they have increased business participation they are well short of what CCWS wants to see. While I agree that they need to keep the pressure on the city, promoter and business community, they also need to provide a racing series that is actually on the radar screen and an on track product that is compelling enough to justify the all the effort and expense. The on track product is arguably passable, but Champcar is not on anyone's radar screen.

We're debating which comes first, the chicken or the egg. CCWS won't be back at RA or MO without being able to draw a crowd and it's going to be hard to generate a lot of positive buzz about the series with races that are unremarkable.

One thing I think we can be quite certain of, that KK and JF are acutely aware of the problems we are discusssing. If you think it's painful to watch cars without sponsorship rest assured that those actually paying to run them are experiencing considerably more pain. Same is true of new races like San Hosey. The amount of time required from their CCWS staff to set up a new event compared with simply renewing an existing event is orders of magnitude more, with the attendent costs increasing accordingly. We can therefore assume they are doing this because they feel they have to.

oc

[mapguy]

Yes the Toyota Atlantic races are on TV on a one week tape delay (I never miss a race, I think I've always enjoyed Atlantics more than any other open wheel series), but what about the rest. Oh wait, Champ Car doesn't have any other steps on their ladder.

So lets look at the rest of the series. When was the last time you saw a Star Mazda race aired within a month of it actually happening, at a decent time of day too? When was the last time F2000 was on TV? Has Formula BMW or Formula Renault ever been on TV?

F3000 has never been on TV here (with the exception of a handfull of races a few years ago.) so that blows your point out of the water. Do you blame team owners for hiring the likes of Zanardi, Montoya and Junquera over the likes of Rice, Fogarty and Gidley? As a team owner your main priority is to get your car in victory lane. Hiring the first three pretty much guarantees trips to victory lane. The other three? Maybe, but I seriously doubt it.

[Sean O'Gorman]

So why haven't any efforts been made to get those "best drivers" to train in the U.S.?

If F3000 champs could win in NASCAR I'm sure teams would hire them but having complete unknowns (even if it was, say, Scott Speed) entering wouldn't be good for the health of the series.

[RichK]

So why haven't any efforts been made to get those "best drivers" to train in the U.S.?

If F3000 champs could win in NASCAR I'm sure teams would hire them but having complete unknowns (even if it was, say, Scott Speed) entering wouldn't be good for the health of the series.

That brings up an interesting question. Does anyone think NASCAR owners care about the health of their series when they make hiring decisions?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Yes. When the talent pool is so deep, you have the option to choose drivers based on off-track criteria such as media savvy, fan friendliness, looks, etc.

They know if they can't keep the fans and the sponsors happy, they wont have any drivers to hire. The former CART and current IRL team owners didn't need to worry about this because Toyota and Honda would take care of everything for them. :shakehead

[cameraman]

If F3000 champs could win in NASCAR I'm sure teams would hire them but having complete unknowns (even if it was, say, Scott Speed) entering wouldn't be good for the health of the series.

First I doubt very many F3000 drivers dream of driving NASCAB.

Second both Bourdais & Junqueira were F3000 champions when they came to CART. You think Bourdais and Junky are bad for the series?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Second both Bourdais & Junqueira were F3000 champions when they came to CART. You think Bourdais and Junky are bad for the series?

Not necessarily, but it is bad for the series when they come in as complete unknowns to the fans. I knew who they were, but how many "real" (real as in the average casual fan) fans knew anything about them?

It would be a completely different case if Champ Car was able to lure these drivers over to a U.S. ladder series earlier in their career, as well as give the series a boost in credibility.

[Racing Truth]

That brings up an interesting question. Does anyone think NASCAR owners care about the health of their series when they make hiring decisions?

They don'y need to worry about that. In NASCAR, you CAN hire someone based on something called "talent," and not purely on $$$$. Tp be sure, every form of motorsports had its ride-buying wankers, but the problem is not that big in NASCAR.

[Dr. Corkski]

First I doubt very many F3000 drivers dream of driving NASCAB.

Second both Bourdais & Junqueira were F3000 champions when they came to CART. You think Bourdais and Junky are bad for the series?It's bad if they aren't competing against the best drivers the feeder series here have to offer.

[FRANKY]

If it wasn't for PT I would not be watching ChampCar right now.



Will you be watching him if/when he moves to Cup?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Complete and utter BS. The only reason why I became a CART fan was due to Paul Tracy. My parent's lived within a 20 minute drive of Mosport. I remember some young, fat, teen driving the living crap out of a F Ford. That was PT. I also remember that same kid (same age as me...) kicking ass in a 800hp Can-Am Frisbee at 18. I followed his career (as well as the late Greg Moore) all the way to the top. If it wasn't for PT I would not be watching ChampCar right now.

This has nothing to do with the 'pipeline', more to do with the NASCARization of the definiton of 'motor racing'.


Name a driver that you'd be able to do that with now with most of the permanent U.S. race tracks being removed from the schedule.

I wish I had noticed this post before, because it helps prove my point that the drivers need to come from where the races are held if the fans are going to be interested. I'm not saying they have to be American, but they should be racing in North America before moving up to Champ Cars.

[trish]

That brings up an interesting question. Does anyone think NASCAR owners care about the health of their series when they make hiring decisions?
Of course they do. They are not stupid. Plus they have a whole lot of American talent to choose from to keep the masses happy. :)

They always showcase the newest driver in the Craftsman Truck or Busch series and usually let him have a few Cup drives before they move them up. They do an excellent job.

[Winston Wolfe]

Not necessarily, but it is bad for the series when they come in as complete unknowns to the fans. I knew who they were, but how many "real" (real as in the average casual fan) fans knew anything about them?

It would be a completely different case if Champ Car was able to lure these drivers over to a U.S. ladder series earlier in their career, as well as give the series a boost in credibility.

Who knew ANYTHING about ANY of the drivers that have come into CART\ Champcar \ OWRS in the last 10 years , besides Mansell, Fittipaldi, Andretti...

Did anyone really know anything about Zanardi, or Montoya when they first stepped foot in the series ? The ladder series for CART was Lights and T-A, and there are several drivers in CCWS and many other who are now in .1RL who are grads of the ladder ( Kanaan, HCN, Herta, Carp, Danica et al) and many others who were ladder champs\ winners who race G-A (Pruett, Papis, Gidley).

CART and CCWS had a problem RETAINING these guys. Are you gonna turn down a promotion to a better *whatever your job is*.... if NASCAR or F1 or some other series comes to a driver who may or may not have a ride in OWRS theh they are going to take it because they need to put bread on the table. Would it be better if they ALL stayed with CCWS through the good times and the bad - HELL YEAH !.... but times they are a changin'

There are too many ladder series out there now - F2000, F3000, F-BMW, Star Mazda, etc.... maybe AR-1 is next ????

Karting would be a great start, but it looks like Ra-hole got the "future stars of tomorrow" kart gig....

Just becuase you have a ladder series there is no guarantee that your winner goes on to the top rung of that ladder.... there are still T-A standouts and Champs that never made it to CART or CCWS... for whatever reason or another, usually $$$$, but that doesnt mean the system is a failure.

[pferrf1]

Attendance has ALWAYS included those people for both series. It has ALWAYS included everyone at the track - no matter what role or whether they paid.

It puts the Phoenix and Milwaukee numbers in perspective.

[racer2c]

with all the "insiders" we have floating around here, I'm sure someone can quantify a number to associate to the "support" members at issue. What are we talking here, 500, 1000, 2000? I'd be very surprised if the number is over 1000.

[FCYTravis]

7th Gear all over again?
Last I checked, OffCamber was about respectful, impassioned if heated (but usually respectful) discussion and debate about Champ Cars and road racing. This includes talk about the positives and negatives of the decisions made by Champ Car's leaders.

OTOH, if you want pure, unadulterated Champ Car cheerleading, "omg he said something bad about San Jose, he's a traitor who wants EARL to win," then ChampCarFantasies.com (props to Easy) is ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,> that way.

[Gnam]

You gonna be flagging the SJGP, or is it all about the Benjamins these days? ;)

[nrc]

Not necessarily, but it is bad for the series when they come in as complete unknowns to the fans. I knew who they were, but how many "real" (real as in the average casual fan) fans knew anything about them?Any "real" fan should know enough about the sport to be happy to have an F3000 champion join the series whether they've heard of them or not.

It's funny that we're hearing complaints about the field today when we had a thread at the beginning of the season about how this is the best field we've had in years. Over half the field are from Champ car feeder series.

What happened? One event with poor turnout in Milwaukee and a lot of gloom and doom.

If you listen to some folks here, two road course venues and couple of Atlantic drivers are what will either make or break champ car. I really doubt it.

[FCYTravis]

Gnam, despite my rhetoric, I was really looking forward to flagging San Jose, but unfortunately I done whored myself out to Grand-Am at Barber Motorsports Park in Alabama (oh the sweet irony) that same weekend.

I am, however, going to be supporting Champ Car road racing this weekend at Portland.

I've now been to the last-ever Mid-Ohio race, the second-to-last-ever Road America race, the last-ever Laguna Seca race and was slated to be at the never-happened Fontana race in 2003.

So, if you're going by my track record, Champ Car needs to keep me as far away from its street races as possible, because if this keeps up, I'm going to kill Portland too :rofl: :(

[mueber]

7th Gear all over again?

It seems so. :(

[Methanolandbrats]

7th Gear all over again?No. 7G was overwhelmed by IRL Tools. This is a discussion of Champcar's direction between Champcar Fans.

[RTKar]

No. 7G was overwhelmed by IRL Tools. This is a discussion of the direction of Champcar's direction between Champcar Fans.

Yup, I thought forums were for discussion, preferrably with a reasonable maturity level.

[Mike Lawler]

I'd guess he probably had those numbers as an estimate for food vendors, parking, restrooms and traffic.



It'll be interesting to see. I think the Edmonton guys have the right approach. Aim for a reasonable target and be happily surprised when you surpass it. It's called a business plan.

[KLang]

No. 7G was overwhelmed by IRL Tools. This is a discussion of Champcar's direction between Champcar Fans.

I think the 7G reference is the constant doom and gloom from a few posters here.

[G.]

Gnam, despite my rhetoric, I was really looking forward to flagging San Jose, but unfortunately I done whored myself out to Grand-Am at Barber Motorsports Park in Alabama (oh the sweet irony) that same weekend.

I am, however, going to be supporting Champ Car road racing this weekend at Portland.

I've now been to the last-ever Mid-Ohio race, the second-to-last-ever Road America race, the last-ever Laguna Seca race and was slated to be at the never-happened Fontana race in 2003.

So, if you're going by my track record, Champ Car needs to keep me as far away from its street races as possible, because if this keeps up, I'm going to kill Portland too :rofl: :(you need a new hobby.

;)

[Winston Wolfe]

If you listen to some folks here, two road course venues and couple of Atlantic drivers are what will either make or break champ car. I really doubt it.

nice, nrc -

This race is being "doomed and gloomed" into failure well before they got sponsors....

there are plenty of MAJOR things wrong with OW in North America, and tracks and star drivers are some of the issues, but the #1 major reason resides at the irl500.

Will the Santa Fe race have a better turnout that LS did its final year ? I'm willing to bet. How about better than the EARL at Infineon ? Who knows. They were promoting that race at the LBGP in the Convention Center, with big time discount coupons and pretty girls handing them out.

Its the first year of a new race, in a new venue, with alot of unknowns. We have to give it a chance, find out what went wrong (if anything) and fix it for next year.... Let's move on.... LS aint coming back this year.

[Andrew Longman]

Champ Car needs to keep me as far away from its street races as possible, because if this keeps up, I'm going to kill Portland too :rofl: :(

My attendance killed off ovals at Nazareth and Michigan, then I moved on to RA (that only took me three years). I've been working on Cleveland and Toronto recently.

[Racing Truth]

That has been widly done for years, including at Cleveland.

Thanks. Honestly did not know that. :)

At any rate, you'll have 20k grandstand seats. To get 50k on Sunday, they're expecting Gen. Att of at least 20-25k? :saywhat:

Dunno, maybe its more likely than I think.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Champ Car venues I have visited:

Mid-Ohio (gone after '03)
Michigan (gone after '01)
Road America (gone after' 04)
Indy (gone after '95)
Cleveland (gone if the casinos show up?)

Looks like I'm bad luck too.

[RusH]

I was at the St.Pete race in `03 :D

[Gnam]

Cleveland (gone if the casinos show up?)

Whatchu talkin' bout Willis? :confused:

[cart7]

I'm man enough to take responsibility for Gateway. :gomer:

I'd suggest CCWS avoid VIR, I-55 speedway, Belle Claire speedway and Tri-City if they know what's good for 'em. ;)


forgot one, KK better not think of buying the old Mid America raceway in an attempt to fix it up for the series to race on, I soiled that place with my presence as well. :laugh:

[KLang]

I was present for the final races at Chicago, Homestead, Houston and St. Pete. :cry: Does that make me the winner? :gomer:

I was also at RA in 04 but I believe we will return at some point. :)

[Sean O'Gorman]

Whatchu talkin' bout Willis? :confused:

The city of Cleveland wants to tear down Burke and build houses, condos, casinos, etc. on the lakefront. Dumb idea if you ask me, even when you remove my pro-Cleveland GP bias.

[Racing Truth]

The city of Cleveland wants to tear down Burke and build houses, condos, casinos, etc. on the lakefront. Dumb idea if you ask me, even when you remove my pro-Cleveland GP bias.

I didn't realize "One-Term Jane" wanted to tear up Burke as part of the plan. Why am I not surprised? :gomer: :shakehead

Hey, I know, a new true Street race baby! :gomer:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Hmm, I wonder if there is any correlation between the decrease in the fan base, and the decrease in races accessable to the fan base...

Nah, couldn't be. They just all move to San Jose and China. :gomer:

[Racing Truth]

Hmm, I wonder if there is any correlation between the decrease in the fan base, and the decrease in races accessable to the fan base...

Nah, couldn't be. They just all move to San Jose and China. :gomer:

I'm sure there will be a burgeoning fan base in Kyrgyzstan. :gomer:

[NismoZ]

cart7...Wentzville? I was there for some Camel GT thing way back when...I got some great shots from underneath a spectator bridge inside the last (?) turn...Bob Sharp was hot in a GTU 240Z, so when would THAT have been? '74, '75? Peter Gregg, Al Holbert, ...had a real nice time! :)

[Andrew Longman]

I forgot to add that I've seen Champcars at Trenton and Pocono. Also I helped close Flemington and East Windsor short tracks. Doing my best for Loews and McMansions. :(

[RichK]

I think you all need to visit IMS! Preferably together to maximize the effect.

[Dr. Corkski]

They just all move to San Jose and China. :gomer:Aren't they the same anyway? :gomer:

[Gnam]

Aren't they the same anyway? :gomer:
Nice. Don't turn this into a West Coast - No Coast rumble. You'll lose. :p

[pchall]

Thanks. Honestly did not know that. :)

At any rate, you'll have 20k grandstand seats. To get 50k on Sunday, they're expecting Gen. Att of at least 20-25k? :saywhat:

Dunno, maybe its more likely than I think.

You might be suprised at the GA sales. The "walk around the track" crowd for street and road courses is pretty good and really compliments the "seat on the bleechers" set.

[RichK]

Nice. Don't turn this into a West Coast - No Coast rumble. You'll lose. :p

I think Dr. Cork is from San Jose. I laughed at the China thing, but then I'm from around here too.

[Spicoli]

[blog-rant]

what an exercise in futility.

if i can't get to the races, i can't get to the races. give me a product I can buy.

someone needs to shove a healthy dose of reality into limpy dick Eidswick's nostrils and maybe he'll wake up. Milwaukee? :rolleyes: I thought we were road racers? Cleveland? I thought we were road racers. Besides, I've been to those 2 races a bazillion times, and would like something different or at least interesting. I could get to Trawna as well, but the entire schedule of "Drive to" CCWS races (for me) this year happen in 5 weeks time, with the USGP (my race) tossed in the middle. These asscracks need a crash course in planning a schedule, to say the least. I can pony up for races 5 times a year easy - but spread the ****ers out, you nitwits. Its like no one over there understands who the fans are, etc etc. They think us being F1 'tenders to the chumps in china, Korea, and any other 3rd world country is going to help establish the brand name? Seriously? Well, then you should go be a reporter for Marxie. :gomer:

Its hard to maintain any level of respect for these go-tards, as I'm seeing TONS of effective, upscale, professional advertising for Formula1 popping up all around town for the last few days, and it's exciting the HELL out of this city. Even the parking garage attendant yesterday had a USGP ball cap on. There are Eurobillieis all over town. the excitement is building.

CCWS can;t even get themselves 20k at milwaukee, a city they have been racing at for, oh, I don;t know, 97 years? Jeebus, what losers.

If KK & GF are gonna plunk down the cash to prop this puppy up for a while, you would THINK they would put someone in charge that new something about racing? Uh, no - this is CART, part 17. Never hire the poeple who are competent, hire the "friends and family" program.

I ain;t no hater, but so far this year I've been to ALMS/MidO and will be at USGP. Outside of that, I'm thinking of Denver. Oh yeah, Denver. i'll bet you stop 100 people on the streets of downtown Denver, you MIGHT find 1 person who won the race - any year its been there. what a shame.

hewre's the CC model: find city, rape city, run 3 races, find new city, rape city, run 3 races, repeat.

[/blog-rant]





P.S. : the earl still BIGGIE sucks worse than us. :thumbup:

[cart7]

cart7...Wentzville? I was there for some Camel GT thing way back when...I got some great shots from underneath a spectator bridge inside the last (?) turn...Bob Sharp was hot in a GTU 240Z, so when would THAT have been? '74, '75? Peter Gregg, Al Holbert, ...had a real nice time! :)

You're showing your age. :p Yep, along time ago. The road course hasn't been used in years. I haven't been out to the place since a rod show 'n swap meet about 15 + years ago. The RC was in bad shape and only the old drag strip was still being used.

Sad, that was a nice layout.

[cameraman]

Outside of that, I'm thinking of Denver.

Toronto and Montreal are closer to Indy than Denver is.
You afraid of Canadians?

[racer2c]

[blog-rant]

what an exercise in futility.

if i can't get to the races, i can't get to the races. give me a product I can buy.

someone needs to shove a healthy dose of reality into limpy dick Eidswick's nostrils and maybe he'll wake up. Milwaukee? :rolleyes: I thought we were road racers? Cleveland? I thought we were road racers. Besides, I've been to those 2 races a bazillion times, and would like something different or at least interesting. I could get to Trawna as well, but the entire schedule of "Drive to" CCWS races (for me) this year happen in 5 weeks time, with the USGP (my race) tossed in the middle. These asscracks need a crash course in planning a schedule, to say the least. I can pony up for races 5 times a year easy - but spread the ****ers out, you nitwits. Its like no one over there understands who the fans are, etc etc. They think us being F1 'tenders to the chumps in china, Korea, and any other 3rd world country is going to help establish the brand name? Seriously? Well, then you should go be a reporter for Marxie. :gomer:

Its hard to maintain any level of respect for these go-tards, as I'm seeing TONS of effective, upscale, professional advertising for Formula1 popping up all around town for the last few days, and it's exciting the HELL out of this city. Even the parking garage attendant yesterday had a USGP ball cap on. There are Eurobillieis all over town. the excitement is building.

CCWS can;t even get themselves 20k at milwaukee, a city they have been racing at for, oh, I don;t know, 97 years? Jeebus, what losers.

If KK & GF are gonna plunk down the cash to prop this puppy up for a while, you would THINK they would put someone in charge that new something about racing? Uh, no - this is CART, part 17. Never hire the poeple who are competent, hire the "friends and family" program.

I ain;t no hater, but so far this year I've been to ALMS/MidO and will be at USGP. Outside of that, I'm thinking of Denver. Oh yeah, Denver. i'll bet you stop 100 people on the streets of downtown Denver, you MIGHT find 1 person who won the race - any year its been there. what a shame.

hewre's the CC model: find city, rape city, run 3 races, find new city, rape city, run 3 races, repeat.

[/blog-rant]





P.S. : the earl still BIGGIE sucks worse than us. :thumbup:

Dear Anne Landers,

I just moved to Florida. I have two IRL races, two NASCAR races and two sports car races. When is Champ Car going to get off their collective duffs and go race somewhere I can drive too!

Signed,
Bummedout Champ Car Fan

Dear Bummed,

What's a Champ Car?

Sincerly,
Anne.

[oddlycalm]

The city of Cleveland wants to tear down Burke and build houses, condos, casinos, etc. on the lakefront. Dumb idea if you ask me, even when you remove my pro-Cleveland GP bias. To be more specific it's probably not actually the people in the Cleveland that want to replace airport with development, it's the developers, their paid shills and their paid for politicos that want the tax revenue to spend. The "people" of Cleveland will be lucky if they get a small park and a couple more Starbucks out of it.

oc

[skaven]

Even the parking garage attendant yesterday had a USGP ball cap on. There are Eurobillieis all over town. the excitement is building.


When is Bernie going to get to the part where he bends over FTG? Been waiting too long for that to happen. :mad:


Outside of that, I'm thinking of Denver. Oh yeah, Denver. i'll bet you stop 100 people on the streets of downtown Denver, you MIGHT find 1 person who won the race - any year its been there.

If you hang out in the Newman Haas pit, you might "find 1 person who won the race." :gomer:

Seriously though, I'll buy you a beer if you make it to Denver, cuz drinkin' and hatin' is all that you do. :)

[RTKar]

[blog-rant]

what an exercise in futility.

if i can't get to the races, i can't get to the races. give me a product I can buy.

Its hard to maintain any level of respect for these go-tards, as I'm seeing TONS of effective, upscale, professional advertising for Formula1 popping up all around town for the last few days, and it's exciting the HELL out of this city. Even the parking garage attendant yesterday had a USGP ball cap on. There are Eurobillieis all over town. the excitement is building.

CCWS can;t even get themselves 20k at milwaukee, a city they have been racing at for, oh, I don;t know, 97 years? Jeebus, what losers.

If KK & GF are gonna plunk down the cash to prop this puppy up for a while, you would THINK they would put someone in charge that new something about racing? Uh, no - this is CART, part 17. Never hire the poeple who are competent, hire the "friends and family" program.

I ain;t no hater, but so far this year I've been to ALMS/MidO and will be at USGP. Outside of that, I'm thinking of Denver. Oh yeah, Denver. i'll bet you stop 100 people on the streets of downtown Denver, you MIGHT find 1 person who won the race - any year its been there. what a shame.

hewre's the CC model: find city, rape city, run 3 races, find new city, rape city, run 3 races, repeat.

[/blog-rant]

P.S. : the earl still BIGGIE sucks worse than us. :thumbup:


Alright! Spicoli... :thumbup:

[Spicoli]

Toronto and Montreal are closer to Indy than Denver is.
You afraid of Canadians?

its the timing/schedule thingy.


Plus, always seems like Montweah is a onflict. This year? Wife's biggie HS reunion.

I know, its MEEEE that's the prollem, not Champ. :hiccup:

[Dr. Corkski]

Nice. Don't turn this into a West Coast - No Coast rumble. You'll lose. :pBring on the hateball, sucka. :D

[Ankf00]

heh, left coast vs cornfields, this ought to be funny.

[Methanolandbrats]

Nice. Don't turn this into a West Coast - No Coast rumble. You'll lose. :p Damn, when I took Geography, China had a pretty impressive coast :)

[RusH]

Damn, when I took Geography, China had a pretty impressive coast :)

It`s also in the east, no need for a race in Phily then.

[Spicoli]

When is Bernie going to get to the part where he bends over FTG? Been waiting too long for that to happen. :mad:



If you hang out in the Newman Haas pit, you might "find 1 person who won the race." :gomer:

Seriously though, I'll buy you a beer if you make it to Denver, cuz drinkin' and hatin' is all that you do. :)

thanks defender. :gomer:

[skaven]

thanks for not calling me dependser :gomer:

Also, I know this thread is about how much streets suck, but Seabass'z run through the field in Denver was one of CCWS better moments last year. :thumbup:

[Spicoli]

thanks for not calling me dependser :gomer:

Also, I know this thread is about how much streets suck, but Seabass'z run through the field in Denver was one of CCWS better moments last year. :thumbup:

i agree. an unpopular opinion perhaps, but what i could see on tv the last 3 years looked pretty ccool.

[NismoZ]

And from Denver that's where you can see it best...TV

[jonovision_man]

thanks for not calling me dependser :gomer:

Also, I know this thread is about how much streets suck, but Seabass'z run through the field in Denver was one of CCWS better moments last year. :thumbup:

Street courses can be good, for sure, but what's the sense in dumping Laguna Seca for San Jose, then only setting up 20,000 seats?

Surely with those millions put into marketing instead of setting up a street circuit they could have got 20,000 people out to Laguna, a really decent road course.

The street course business model relies on big crowds to offset the set-up costs... I don't see how they're doing it in Denver, where they're cutting back on grandstands, or at SJ. :shakehead

jono

[cart7]

Street courses can be good, for sure, but what's the sense in dumping Laguna Seca for San Jose, then only setting up 20,000 seats?

Surely with those millions put into marketing instead of setting up a street circuit they could have got 20,000 people out to Laguna, a really decent road course.

The street course business model relies on big crowds to offset the set-up costs... I don't see how they're doing it in Denver, where they're cutting back on grandstands, or at SJ. :shakehead

jono

If they can get the city of San Jose to pickup the tab for the course setup, marketing, etc. why not? Besides, the way Champcar has been drawing at Laguna the past few years I really don't think they could get 20k out there anymore. The series just doesn't have the exposure nor hype it used to have. Part of that is due to the split, part to a lack of a competant TV package, another part has been a revolving door of drivers and teams.

Hopefully they'll actually be able to fill those 20k. If they can't I'd say this series is in pretty serious trouble.

[KLang]

I asked this in the now closed thread and didn't see any response....

How many grandstand seats are set up at the other street races? I wouldn't be surprised if the 20k number isn't in the ballpark for other venues as well.

[jonovision_man]

I don't think so, 20,000 sounds awfully low. I've been to Toronto for several years, and those main grandstands along the front stretch hold a lot of people, and they aren't the only stands in the place.

Edmonton was talking 48,000.
http://www.emdacars.com/motorshow2004/featured-champcar.html

Race organizers will have grandstands to seat 48,000 fans erected around the City Center Airport layout.

jono

[jonovision_man]

If they can get the city of San Jose to pickup the tab for the course setup, marketing, etc. why not? Besides, the way Champcar has been drawing at Laguna the past few years I really don't think they could get 20k out there anymore. The series just doesn't have the exposure nor hype it used to have. Part of that is due to the split, part to a lack of a competant TV package, another part has been a revolving door of drivers and teams.

Hopefully they'll actually be able to fill those 20k. If they can't I'd say this series is in pretty serious trouble.

Unfortunately, I think it is in pretty serious trouble. There was another thread some time ago complaining about there being fewer grandstands at Montreal, now one with fewer in Denver, and such a low start in San Jose. And here in Toronto they cut ticket prices 20% from last year. Attendance has been the rock through the troubled times, if it's feeling the pinch there ain't much left. :(

jono

[Sean O'Gorman]

I asked this in the now closed thread and didn't see any response....

How many grandstand seats are set up at the other street races? I wouldn't be surprised if the 20k number isn't in the ballpark for other venues as well.

15-20k seems to be right for Cleveland.

[JT265]

Unfortunately, I think it is in pretty serious trouble. There was another thread some time ago complaining about there being fewer grandstands at Montreal, now one with fewer in Denver, and such a low start in San Jose. And here in Toronto they cut ticket prices 20% from last year. Attendance has been the rock through the troubled times, if it's feeling the pinch there ain't much left. :(

jono

The Toronto discount is in celebration of the 20th anniversary only. Nothing to see here.

[jonovision_man]

The Toronto discount is in celebration of the 20th anniversary only. Nothing to see here.

That's how it's being marketed, but why cut prices if you're seeing strong demand?

jono

[mueber]

OK, plenty of complaining, how about some solutions. I have none, so how about you?

The surest evidence of the malaise that open wheel is in is the fact that places that used to sell well do not sell anymore. Milwaukee was sad. So does anyone care to make some suggestions to solve the problems afflicting open wheel that don't include spending millions of dollars to stage races at natural terrain road courses and ovals where people don't seem to be interested?

And please don’t give me the buy American thing. KK and GF can only spend so much money, and we can’t expect car owners to put drivers into their teams hoping a sponsor will be attracted to those empty stands and low TV ratings because the driver is American. Allmandinger is an American, a fine driver, and a good kid, he doesn’t have a sponsor. And if he doesn’t have a sponsor, the chances of John Fogarty drawing one are less than zero, it seems to me.

Suggestions anyone?

[jonovision_man]

OK, plenty of complaining, how about some solutions. I have none, so how about you?

The surest evidence of the malaise that open wheel is in is the fact that places that used to sell well do not sell anymore. Milwaukee was sad. So does anyone care to make some suggestions to solve the problems afflicting open wheel that don't include spending millions of dollars to stage races at natural terrain road courses and ovals where people don't seem to be interested?

And please don’t give me the buy American thing. KK and GF can only spend so much money, and we can’t expect car owners to put drivers into their teams hoping a sponsor will be attracted to those empty stands and low TV ratings because the driver is American. Allmandinger is an American, a fine driver, and a good kid, he doesn’t have a sponsor. And if he doesn’t have a sponsor, the chances of John Fogarty drawing one, are less than zero, it seems to me.

Suggestions anyone?

Oh sure, ask the HARD questions. :)

Butts in the seats and viewers in front of their TVs, that's the solution. :D How to get there from here isn't trivial.

I think they've executed part of their plan - shedding the unprofitable races - and are trying to build new races in the image of their successful ones. Toronto, Surfer's, Mexico, and Long Beach. They hired Singleton for SJ, he did the Toronto Molson Indy for years, maybe some of his experience will rub off in the right places in SJ.

There have to be compelling reasons for people to watch... just look at Danicamania. Nobody cared about the IRL for a decade, an attractive young woman gets into a car and suddenly there's a bit of a buzz, it's in the media, and people tune in. Not saying CCWS needs Danica, but it needs something for "regular" people to talk about, or read about, etc.

jono

[mueber]

Oh sure, ask the HARD questions. :)

Butts in the seats and viewers in front of their TVs, that's the solution. :D How to get there from here isn't trivial.

I think they've executed part of their plan - shedding the unprofitable races - and are trying to build new races in the image of their successful ones. Toronto, Surfer's, Mexico, and Long Beach. They hired Singleton for SJ, he did the Toronto Molson Indy for years, maybe some of his experience will rub off in the right places in SJ.

There have to be compelling reasons for people to watch... just look at Danicamania. Nobody cared about the IRL for a decade, an attractive young woman gets into a car and suddenly there's a bit of a buzz, it's in the media, and people tune in. Not saying CCWS needs Danica, but it needs something for "regular" people to talk about, or read about, etc.

jono

OK. So suppose Tony Stewart was to move to the Newman-Haas team, that would do it?

[Racing Truth]

OK. So suppose Tony Stewart was to move to the Newman-Haas team, that would do it?

Well, it wouldn't hurt.

Stewart and another Cup driver in CCWS (never happen, but...) =skyrocketing ratings.