The Return of Slicks: FIA Cost Cutting Proposal

[racer2c]

I was reading through the just released proposal from the FIA which claims these measures could cut costs by as much as 90%. One of the things that caught my eye was this;

Slick tires will be introduced for use in dry weather
- Lower profile tires will be introduced
- Significantly larger wheels with minimum and maximum sizes stipulated for front and rear will be permitted
- Tire blankets and other heating devices will be prohibited.

Read the entire proposal here. (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/17615/)

[cameraman]

I thought the grooves were there to slow things down a bit for safety reasons.

They are faster now than they were prior to the grooves so won't dropping the grooves make them even faster? Into that nebulous "too fast" area?

[Grunschev]

... proposal from the FIA which ... could cut costs by as much as 90%.

At first I had to check the calendar. It's not April 1st, is it? Now I'm left to wondering who spiked Max's drink and what they spiked it with. These proposals will change F1 into something that is not F1. But then I noticed that one of the important things was to not reduce the area of the car available for advertising, so that's about right.

Interesting stuff.

Igor

[racer2c]

I thought the grooves were there to slow things down a bit for safety reasons.

They are faster now than they were prior to the grooves so won't dropping the grooves make them even faster? Into that nebulous "too fast" area?

Coupled with other changes on the car I'm assuming they expect to keep the speeds in check. Their reasoning for the return of slicks is;

Reasons:
- a single supplier would allow a bigger safety margin
- the absence of competitive tire testing would reduce costs
- as relatively small differences in tire compound and construction can have a significant effect on lap times, a single tire supplier would simply ensure that no team would be adversely affected by being contracted to the “wrong” supplier
- slick tires would be re-introduced as a part of the low-downforce and high-mechanical-grip package
- lower profile tires would be introduced in order to give the wheels and tires a more modern look and also permit more freedom on brakes and suspension
- a ban on tire heating devices would eliminate this significant but unnecessary .

A mandated single tire supplier. Hmm.

[Gnam]

I thought the grooves were there to slow things down a bit for safety reasons.

They are faster now than they were prior to the grooves so won't dropping the grooves make them even faster? Into that nebulous "too fast" area?

- Downforce will be reduced to approximately 10% of current levels
- drag should remain unchanged in order to ensure straight line speeds do not increase significantly


Spec ECU's, Spec gearboxes, manual shifting with the clutch pedal :eek:

[Andrew Longman]

Slicks is good.

A lot of what they are proposing, and their reasons for it, sound like champcar. No traction control and going for less of an aero wake, for example.

Somethings sound dumb. No spare car? Sure that will cost team less, and earn them less if they crash out in practice and can only run one car (or no cars). Sponsors and fans pay to see the cars.

Spec gear ratios? Sounds like NASCAR.

On board starter? Endlessly debated about champcars.

Testing limits? Why if you already reduced the need by going to a spec tire?

No aero doohickies? Certainly will make the cars look better and reduce windtunnel costs.

Spec brakes that last a whole weekend? If that going to be another rule? Change pads and you lose 10 starting spots?

Must make chassis available to others? Does that mean if I am McClaren and I find my chassis sucks Ferrari has to sell me one of theirs? If so, the teams with the most money will buy the best chassis every year.

In the end the team with the most money will always spend what they need to win. Even if all they can spend it on is the best driver, the best shocks ans springs and the best shock and spring engineers.

F1 would do much better to make sure their product continues to attract fans and sponsors and to better distribute the wealth. Ferrari spends so much because the way TV and other money is distributed, they have the money to spend. Arrows and Prost got d**K

[Gnam]

Must make chassis available to others? Does that mean if I am McClaren and I find my chassis sucks Ferrari has to sell me one of theirs? If so, the teams with the most money will buy the best chassis every year.
- Teams will be free to buy a complete car or any part of a car from another constructor

I think it just allows the option. The constructor still has to agree to build and sell the car. Say hello to Frankenstein's monster.

[RacinM3]

Lower costs? Haha, that's funny.

Using a lower profile tire alone is going to cause a total re-think of the suspension systems, considering the majority of the suspension "give" is in the sidewall of the current tires. Take that away and the car becomes too stiffly sprung. So then you have to soften the springs, which in turn increases bottoming with today's downforce setups. They say they're going to reduce downforce 10% but we all know the engineers will get it back.

Welcome to San Marino 1994. They better think these things through.

[RacinM3]

Oh, and WTF to this:

- Lower profile tires will be introduced

Reasons:

- lower profile tires would be introduced in order to give the wheels and tires a more modern look and also permit more freedom on brakes

then later.....

BRAKES:
- All cars will be fitted with brake discs, pads and calipers which have been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to an agreed specification

Reason:
- to reduce the cost of continual development of new materials and designs, the FIA specified products will be designed to work on all types of track and last an entire Grand Prix weekend.

:saywhat:

[cameraman]

So are F1 and Champ Car going to have a common specs? :rolleyes:

[Gnam]

- lower profile tires would be introduced in order to give the wheels and tires a more modern look and also [b]permit more freedom on brakes
Honda says BRING IT!

http://www.suvworld.com/gallery/ElementBabe/88163.jpg

[RichK]

- lower profile tires would be introduced in order to give the wheels and tires a more modern look

That's what F1 is lacking: a more modern look! :shakehead

[trauma1]

why do i feel like Ferrari will object to most of this :shakehead

[oddlycalm]

In the end the team with the most money will always spend what they need to win. Even if all they can spend it on is the best driver, the best shocks ans springs and the best shock and spring engineers.

F1 would do much better to make sure their product continues to attract fans and sponsors and to better distribute the wealth. Ferrari spends so much because the way TV and other money is distributed, they have the money to spend. Arrows and Prost got d**K Exactly right, and all this bluster is simply a smokescreen for the press and the moves designed more to pre-empt the teams that are heading in a seperate direction that anything else. The bottom line is that as long as Bernie retains the lions share of the income from F1, and what income distribution there is remains the same, then there it will always be necessary for manufacturers to spend big in order to get to the front of the grid and there will always be teams without sufficient budget to be comepitive.

While eliminating much of the aero downforce/turbulence, preserving roughly the same level of drag, and stepping back from cf brakes would theoretically allow more overtaking I have my doubts this would actually happen. Unless they adopt a standard tub or template I doubt they will be able to eliminate 90% of the downforce as the teams are making downforce from most surfaces of the car these days and clever lads with a $300 million budget will always find clever way to go faster.

oc

[Mike Kellner]

I remain convinced that reducing downforce will do nothing to improve passing. We have been doing that since the mid 80s and there is still lots of downforce, and very little passing.

I believe that undertray generated downforce is far less susceptable to disruption when following another car, and the way to get back passing is to liberalize the undertray rules while shrinking the wings to where they are mostly there to adjust the amount of downforce and aero balance. I would return to single plane wings fore and aft and allow large tunnels and diffusers.

I would control speed by reducing power back into the 600 - 700 HP range.

I do like the idea of a single spec slick tire. I think a single fuel supplier is also needed, so everyone gets fuel from the same truck. I also like manual shifting, and mandating lower cost materials. I do not like spec brakes, but could see returning to a requirement that they be cast iron, with aluminum calipers.

mk

[Mike Kellner]

In agreement with an above point. I think a large part of the appearance and TV money needs to be distributed evenly among the teams. Right now, much of it is siphoned off for those who do not put cars on the grid, and the rest goes to the rich teams.

In general, I dislike spec parts, though I think in the case of ECUs, tires and fuel they can be justified. Otherwise, I would prefer to see mandating the use of lower cost materials and simpler technology, while still allowing designers to make the best widget they can.

mk

[cameraman]

They want to limit the team budgets to ~$30 million a year???

There is no way in hell Ferrari, Toyota, Honda, Renault, BMW or Mercedes are going to go for that. They would have to lay off 90% of their people.

[dando]

Woah, slicks AND no warmers? I smell disaster looming IF this actually happens. Big IF, IMHO.

-Kevin

[Mike Kellner]

Tire warmers are for sissies. Drivers will have to be careful on cold tires.

That being said, I somehow think tire warmers are not the biggest cost driver in F1. You can't need more than about 12 or 16 for a 2 car team, and it is not like you need a new better tire warmer every week to keep up.

mk

[JT265]

That's what F1 is lacking: a more modern look! :shakehead

That's it. And I'm proud to announce that starting with the new regs, I will be the official supplier of spinners to F1.

Gotta have a little bling on those wheels. :D

[solpadeine]

Tire warmers are for sissies. Drivers will have to be careful on cold tires.

That being said, I somehow think tire warmers are not the biggest cost driver in F1. You can't need more than about 12 or 16 for a 2 car team, and it is not like you need a new better tire warmer every week to keep up.

mk

Well McLaren sure had a buttload of them out there today (I count 80):

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b179/solpadeine/USGP%202005/usgp_2005_04.jpg

[dando]

Tire warmers are for sissies. Drivers will have to be careful on cold tires.

That being said, I somehow think tire warmers are not the biggest cost driver in F1. You can't need more than about 12 or 16 for a 2 car team, and it is not like you need a new better tire warmer every week to keep up.

mk
The question of tire warmers came up during a C^RT Town Hall, and I believe Pook or one of the other guests mentioned $1mm per team for warmers. Not the biggest co$t driver, but substantial nonetheless.

Now getting some of those wankers to drive well on cold tires.... :gomer:

-Kevin

[Mike Kellner]

Well McLaren sure had a buttload of them out there today (I count 80):

Wow! What can they do with that many warmers? They only have two drivers. Even if they have two sets warmed for each that is 16 total. How much of F1 spending is caused by the concept that if we need 8, and 16 would be better, why not buy 80 just to be sure? Do they even get 80 tires in one weekend?

mk

[cameraman]

Well McLaren sure had a buttload of them out there today (I count 80):

Wow! What can they do with that many warmers? They only have two drivers. Even if they have two sets warmed for each that is 16 total. How much of F1 spending is caused by the concept that if we need 8, and 16 would be better, why not buy 80 just to be sure? Do they even get 80 tires in one weekend?

mk

80 warmers = 20 sets of tires = 10 sets per car
How many compounds do they test on a Friday?
How long does a tire warmer take to fully warm a tire?

[Mike Kellner]

From the F1 oweb site:
FIA Rules & Regulations Sporting Regulations
2005 season changes

http://www.formula1.com/insight/rulesandregs/13/995.html

On Fridays, drivers can test two different dry tyre compounds. Ahead of Saturday practice they choose one of these for the remainder of the weekend. They are then allocated three sets of this compound – usuually one is used in practice, one in qualifying and the race, and one kept in reserve in case of punctures or accident damage.


It looks like to me like they only need two sets per car, plus a spare.

mk

[cameraman]

It looks like to me like they only need two sets per car, plus a spare.

mk

Then why don't you get on the phone and tell Ron Dennis how to run his team :rolleyes:

[racer2c]

**** they only need one set. They can't even change tires during a race. Duh. Friday compounds shmounpounds.

F1 = Million dollar toilet seat. :gomer:

[racer2c]

Then why don't you get on the phone and tell Ron Dennis how to run his team :rolleyes:

What's his #? I'll call that ****. :gomer:

[Mike Kellner]

Then why don't you get on the phone and tell Ron Dennis how to run his team

If he wants the benefit of my wisdom, he can read this forum like everyone else.

mk

[racer2c]

Then why don't you get on the phone and tell Ron Dennis how to run his team

If he wants the benefit of my wisdom, he can read this forum like everyone else.

mk
:thumbup: :)

[trauma1]

what does anyone think if there is a split in F1, will it help american open wheel racing, champ car in particular or have no bearing on it at all?

[mueber]

what does anyone think if there is a split in F1, will it help american open wheel racing, champ car in particular or have no bearing on it at all?

My guess it that it would be hurtful--more opportunities in Europe means more wankers in the USA.

[TrueBrit]

My guess it that it would be hurtful--more opportunities in Europe means more wankers in the USA.

Trust me, there are more than enough home grown ones here already....or haven't you been paying attention to the Inferior Rejects League.... ;)

[Mike Kellner]

If F1 splits as well. there will be 4 failing open wheel series competing with NASCAR.

The car companies want a place to race and showcase their talent. The OW series all have serious flaws from a manufacturer standpoint. In the US, no one is watching OW. In F1, one team wins all the time, for several years in a row before another team takes over winning all the time, and it costs insane amounts of money to take part. If OW doesn't change it's ways, NASCAR will go world wide and will be the only racing.

mk

[trauma1]

and that's what is troubling that open wheel racing world wide is in a crisis, if there is a split you have F1, WCGP, CCWS, EARl, GP2, AIGP alot of series but what the hell only so many sponsors, something has to give.

[Mike Kellner]

There needs to be one OW series that runs in the US, Europe, and the wealthy Asian countries where they sell lots of cars. It needs to be set up so it doesn't cost $1/3 Billion US/year to have any chance. It needs to be set up so promoters, teams and drivers don't lose money while people who do not put on the show walk away with truckloads of cash. It needs to be set up so there is more than one team capable of winning at any one time.

However, I think we are more likely to see the NASCAR World Truck Tour racing at the Monaco GP than any rational organization of OW.

mk

[Insomniac]

There needs to be one OW series that runs in the US, Europe, and the wealthy Asian countries where they sell lots of cars. It needs to be set up so it doesn't cost $1/3 Billion US/year to have any chance. It needs to be set up so promoters, teams and drivers don't lose money while people who do not put on the show walk away with truckloads of cash. It needs to be set up so there is more than one team capable of winning at any one time.

However, I think we are more likely to see the NASCAR World Truck Tour racing at the Monaco GP than any rational organization of OW.

mk

How about a 40 race series with 40 cars. :) race all the time, no time for testing. :)

[Racing Truth]

There needs to be one OW series that runs in the US, Europe, and the wealthy Asian countries where they sell lots of cars. It needs to be set up so it doesn't cost $1/3 Billion US/year to have any chance. It needs to be set up so promoters, teams and drivers don't lose money while people who do not put on the show walk away with truckloads of cash. It needs to be set up so there is more than one team capable of winning at any one time.

However, I think we are more likely to see the NASCAR World Truck Tour racing at the Monaco GP than any rational organization of OW.

mk

Well, no. Everyone agrees that the sport needs to be rationally organized. But if you're suggesting creating one mega worldwide series, and that's it, well, I'm not down with that. American OW Racing, before the split, always tried to maintain a unique identity. If what you're suggesting crushes any uniqueness, it won't work.

[Dr. Corkski]

F1 = Million dollar toilet seat. :gomer:Craig Pollock's greatest achievement as BAR team principle was that he had carbon fiber toilets installed in the team motorhomes. :gomer:

[RichK]

Craig Pollock's greatest achievement as BAR team principle was that he had carbon fiber toilets installed in the team motorhomes. :gomer:

He was flush with cash, but ran a crappy team & had a driver with a piss-poor attitude.

[Mike Kellner]

Laugh all you want. Carbon Fiber seats are more rigid, which improves alignment and stability.

Pearls before swine. :shakehead

mk

[coolhand]

Craig Pollock's greatest achievement as BAR team principle was that he had carbon fiber toilets installed in the team motorhomes. :gomer:

Pollock is an even bigger joke than Villanueve.

Glad KK gave him the quick heave-ho. I heard his job was to bring sponsorship to PK racing due to his high profile, he ended up doing nothing except balb about how he and Bernie Eccelstone were going to buy the series. KK had enough i guess

[racer2c]

Pollock is an even bigger joke than Villanueve.

Glad KK gave him the quick heave-ho. I heard his job was to bring sponsorship to PK racing due to his high profile, he ended up doing nothing except balb about how he and Bernie Eccelstone were going to buy the series. KK had enough i guess

I agree.