View Full Version : Before everyone blames Michelin....
I am not saying that Michelin is above blame in all this. Far from it. But they are not the only ones. To wit..
1. The track surface had dramatically changed since the last F1 race at the Speedplant. Only Bridgestone had data about the new track surface through data gathered at the I497.5. Michelin had no idea about what the track surface would be like.
2. Max Mosley, with all his pontificating about safety, basically told them to eff off. Michelin had offered to ship in new tires for the race. But the FIA said penatlies would ensue if they didn't race on the tires that they qualified on. (Safety? Screw that! Ferrari is guaranteed a win!) They also poo-pooed the installation of a chicane.
So what were the teams to do? Race in a dangerous situation? I think that they made the right choice.
The icing on the cake was that it happened on FTG's track.
devilmaster
06-19-05, 04:56 PM
Agreed. Michelin screwed up, but so did alot of others.
There was stupidity all around.
RedLine
06-19-05, 04:59 PM
"Michelin had no idea about what the track surface would be like."
:confused:
"Michelin had no idea about what the track surface would be like."
:confused:
The track was repaved and then diamond-grinded since the last USGP.
devilmaster
06-19-05, 05:05 PM
The track was repaved and then diamond-grinded since the last USGP.
Bridgestone more than likely knew about the track since Firestone is the same company and they were in the 500.
Bridgestone more than likely knew about the track since Firestone is the same company and they were in the 500.
Thank you Mr Obvious...
;)
Rogue Leader
06-19-05, 05:06 PM
The tires they flew in Michelin also said there was no guarantee they would be any better. I think if michelin flew in tires and could guarantee they would be safe the teams would have put them on and dealt with starting at the back or whatnot....
This is the LAST thing any of them wanted to do.....
The track was repaved and then diamond-grinded since the last USGP.
They also diamond grinded Indianapolis in 2002.
For that matter, since they knew it was repaved in 2005, seems they would want to check out the surface they were going to be racing on, and the may have just done that, but made their tyres incorrectly.
They also diamond grinded Indianapolis in 2002.
For that matter, since they new it was repaved in 2005, seems they would want to check out the surface they were going to be racing on, and the may have just done that, but made their tyres incorrectly.
Since the Michelin teams were part of the group that wanted to reduce spending through cuts in testing, flying the test team and cars to Indy to test the new surface would have been cost prohibitive. And if they did then Ferrari/Bridgestone would have cried foul. And you know what the FIA does when Ferrari cries foul....
devilmaster
06-19-05, 05:13 PM
Thank you Mr Obvious...
;)
there maybe someone out there that doesn't know about that..... i'm trying to help you out..... sheesh! :p
Back on topic though.....
The most telling comments were from varsha and the gang, who talked about the fact that after the grinding, an indy test was cut short, and a nascar test was delayed.....
If those delays were because of track problems, one can assume IMS contributed to the disaster today
RedLine
06-19-05, 05:15 PM
It's sad M doesn't have the resources to develop a safe tire given the, what, two month, window between grinding and the race?
It must take many months to react to unforseen track developments!
I wonder if they even knew it had been reground?
It's sad M doesn't have the resources to develop a safe tire given the, what, two month, window between grinding and the race?
It must take many months to react to unforseen track developments!
I wonder if they even knew it had been reground?
Indianapolis isn't just a few hours drive from their factory in France. Only Bridgestone (via Firestone's running at Indy) had knowledge of what the track conditions were like. The only way Michelin would find out would have been to pay for a few teams to fly to Indy to test. Do you know how much money that would cost?
Since the Michelin teams were part of the group that wanted to reduce spending through cuts in testing, flying the test team and cars to Indy to test the new surface would have been cost prohibitive. And if they did then Ferrari/Bridgestone would have cried foul. And you know what the FIA does when Ferrari cries foul....
Regardless, it was paved, tyre manufacturers knew it was paved. They should have checked it out. Since Michelin returned to F-1 in 2001, they could see changes in 2002 when grinding took place for the first time.
Ed_Severson
06-19-05, 05:20 PM
flying the test team and cars to Indy to test the new surface would have been cost prohibitive.
Indeed. Clearly, this was a much better course of action. :thumdown:
Regardless, it was paved, tyre manufacturers knew it was paved. They should have checked it out. Since Michelin returned to F-1 in 2001, they could see changes in 2002 when grinding took place for the first time.
How do you propose they check it out? Indy isn't in Europe. It isn't like McLaren or Williams can load up their trucks and within a few hours be at Magny-Cours.
How do you propose they check it out? Indy isn't in Europe. It isn't like McLaren or Williams can load up their trucks and within a few hours be at Magny-Cours.
How did they check it out in 2002?? The grooves in the grinded asphalt would be the same depth in 2005 as 2002. They didn't have a problem dealing with the grinding then did they?
How did they check it out in 2002?? The grooves in the grinded asphalt would be the same depth in 2005 as 2002. They didn't have a problem dealing with the grinding then did they?
The difference is that the track was PAVED (as mentioned in my earlier post) and THEN grinded since the last race.
The difference is that the track was PAVED (as mentioned in my earlier post) and THEN grinded since the last race.
So which is it, the paving that caused the additional grip, or the grinding? You can't have it both ways. The repaving of the track made a slick track, so they grinded it in 2005, just like they did in 2002. The grooves would be the same, same depth, same size grooves. The track was slicker in 2005, so I would conclude that the tracl when it was diamond grined in 2002 would have more grip.
They had problems last year with blowouts, who was to blame for that? The 2002 grinding??? :shakehead
RedLine
06-19-05, 05:36 PM
So, M is a helpless victim when any distant (international) track surface undergoes a MAJOR modification MONTHS before a race?
They just show up with their fingers crossed not having the benefit of testing?
Is that how it works? :confused:
Michelin has a pretty big plant and R&D center in Greenville, S.C. As far as I know most of the test they had to do this weekend to find a solution were done there. If they could do this, what kept them from doing it during the year if they knew they were going to be changes in the track? I also heard somewhere, I think it was even by Charlie Whitting, that Michelin didn't bring a "safety" compound, they brought 2 very "agressive" tyres to the race, the one that failed was the less agressive one...
devilmaster
06-19-05, 05:38 PM
So, M is a helpless victim when any distant (international) track surface undergoes a MAJOR modification MONTHS before a race?
They just show up with their fingers crossed not having the benefit of testing?
Is that how it works? :confused:
No, read his first post again. Mappy said Michelin has fault in this.... The comment is that many others also are to blame....
Ed_Severson
06-19-05, 05:41 PM
Here's the bottom line ... no corner in F1 puts more stress on the tyres than the final corner at Indianapolis. Michelin had problems there last year, and they knew the surface had been roughed since then. Nonetheless, they weren't smart enough to build a tyre hard enough to last 20% of the race distance, let alone the entire race distance. As a result, a hundred thousand people or so got to see a six car farce while 70% of the field sat in the garage with their collective thumb up their arse.
This one is squarely on Michelin's shoulders. There were others who could have made different decisions, but if Michelin had their **** together, none of this would have ever happened.
Michelin statement on the US GP
US GP - Michelin - Race
The seven Michelin-shod teams did not take part in the US Grand Prix, resulting in just the six Bridgestone drivers taking part. The following is a statement from Michelin.
"Michelin is very disappointed about the way the United States Grand Prix turned out at Indianapolis today, for the public, the drivers and the teams.
Michelin is sorry that the tyres it ran in free practice and qualifying were not suitable for use in racing conditions this weekend, but driver safety is always a priority. Michelin will never change its stance on this principle, whether we are talking about tyres for competition or any other purpose.
It is regrettable that our pre-race suggestions, agreed in conjunction with our partner teams, were not adopted. Had our ideas been followed, we could have guaranteed driver safety, the participation of our teams and added interest for the public.
Michelin would like to thank its seven partner teams for their close collaboration, for having made propositions to the FIA and for having respected our advice on safety issues.
Michelin will continue to investigate the technical reasons for the tyre-related incidents that affected Toyota during Friday’s free practice."
Press Release
Michelin
RedLine
06-19-05, 05:44 PM
Thank you, but I was replying to this:
"Indianapolis isn't just a few hours drive from their factory in France. Only Bridgestone (via Firestone's running at Indy) had knowledge of what the track conditions were like. The only way Michelin would find out would have been to pay for a few teams to fly to Indy to test. Do you know how much money that would cost?" (my emphasis)
Methanolandbrats
06-19-05, 05:54 PM
Michelin ****ed up, that's the end of it. When Bridgestone tires came apart earlier in the year they also parked a few cars.
yes, they should be able to predict all things... how silly of them. damn them for not being nostradamus!!!
ya, they F'ed up, but this isn't all their fault, instead of doing nothing but pointing fingers like a bunch of tools how about all sides come up with a solution to move forward in conjunction with a plan to avoid a future recurrence? no, wait, that'd mean no chance for certain organization(s) to vent their spleens for this years results...
greenie
06-19-05, 06:22 PM
yes, they should be able to predict all things... how silly of them. damn them for not being nostradamus!!!
Predict everything in the sixth GP at the world famous IMS?
How many millions more would it take? :gomer:
Insomniac
06-19-05, 06:33 PM
there maybe someone out there that doesn't know about that..... i'm trying to help you out..... sheesh! :p
Back on topic though.....
The most telling comments were from varsha and the gang, who talked about the fact that after the grinding, an indy test was cut short, and a nascar test was delayed.....
If those delays were because of track problems, one can assume IMS contributed to the disaster today
It seemed all the test cancellations were during tire tests. Clearly IMS didn't play nice with tires. I don't understand why they didn't diamond grind the road course when they had to do it for the entire oval.
Insomniac
06-19-05, 06:34 PM
Indianapolis isn't just a few hours drive from their factory in France. Only Bridgestone (via Firestone's running at Indy) had knowledge of what the track conditions were like. The only way Michelin would find out would have been to pay for a few teams to fly to Indy to test. Do you know how much money that would cost?
With teams spending up to $400M/yr, I'm sure they could afford it. The real reason is probably because IMS is in the oval configuration the rest of the time. They make it out to be a huge feat to reconfigure the place after Indy in 3 weeks time.
Insomniac
06-19-05, 06:38 PM
Michelin ****ed up, that's the end of it. When Bridgestone tires came apart earlier in the year they also parked a few cars.
Exactly, they screwed up big time, and this such a big deal because it affected 70% of the cars. If it was an engine problem at McLaren no one would care. We'd all say Mercedes sucks and move on.
Insomniac
06-19-05, 06:41 PM
yes, they should be able to predict all things... how silly of them. damn them for not being nostradamus!!!
ya, they F'ed up, but this isn't all their fault, instead of doing nothing but pointing fingers like a bunch of tools how about all sides come up with a solution to move forward in conjunction with a plan to avoid a future recurrence? no, wait, that'd mean no chance for certain organization(s) to vent their spleens for this years results...
I don't understand this whole Ferrari conspiracy. These guys are all competing spending hundreds of $millions to win races. They all have to follow the rules and I don't see why they have to bend over when they did nothing wrong to accomodate everyone else.
Even most of the drivers agreed. Bridgestone had it right, Michelin didn't. Why should the rules be changed to help the majority when they messed up?
there is no Ferrari conspiracy, you have to be able to win on your own to have a conspiracy first :gomer:
you don't go from making race-ready tires to ones that won't last more than 10 laps according to Michelin communique without some MAJOR changes in factors popping up, but yes, they're solely responsible for that huge swing in performance...
but yes, screw everyone else, you're right, after all "without Ferrari there would be no Forumula 1"... too bad the stands today said different. I mean, this isn't a sport, it's all about arguments, pissing matches, and politics, who wants to try to have a race when you can piss and moan and point fingers for the next year instead? finding a way to race while still giving ferrari/bridgestone the advantage they deserved is just too much to handle I guess...
oddlycalm
06-19-05, 06:59 PM
Michelin ****ed up, that's the end of it. The track hasn't been available for testing since it was reground. The IMS contracted the cheesy repave then did diamond grinding, something that may pass muster on an interstate, but has no place on a race track. Michelin was certainly caught out, but in response to a situation that should have never faced an F1 race. FTG and his entire cheese ball operation. :thumdown:
oc
Michelin fed up, but someone, somewhere should give a **** about the fans.
Andrew Longman
06-19-05, 07:21 PM
I don't understand this whole Ferrari conspiracy. These guys are all competing spending hundreds of $millions to win races. They all have to follow the rules and I don't see why they have to bend over when they did nothing wrong to accomodate everyone else.
Even most of the drivers agreed. Bridgestone had it right, Michelin didn't. Why should the rules be changed to help the majority when they messed up?
Believe me, Bridgestone got almost no marketing value today for being associated with the most cynical, fan unfriendly event in motorsport history. Whatever they paid damaged them nearly as much as Michelin. Goodyear, Yokohama and other did better and it didn't cost them a dime.
Marketing value only comes in motorsport if you beat someone of value on a fair playing field. And if you don't beat someone at least be part of a positive and compelling show. Today Bridgestone proved to be the yellow rubber duck floating atop the sesspool.
If there wasn't so much money in play and so many fans involved I'd just write it off as a notable business disaster. But this will damage the entire sport I fear.
TrueBrit
06-19-05, 07:32 PM
I'm sorry but with all this kvetching about who is to blame, why has nobody pointed out the absolutely bloody obvious target, Max "brownshirt" Moseley? How in the world this lawyer thinks he knows what is best for the pinnacle of motorsport is beyond me...he is suffering from a severe case of Jean-Marie Balestre disease and is starting to believe his own press releases.
This highly qualified engineer, sorry, lawyer is the same genius that gave us narrower cars, grooved tyres, engines that have to last two race weekends and tyres that are supposed to last an entre race weekend. Methinks he should stick to being a pompous git, and let someone that understands the technical side of F-1 come up with the next brilliant idea...
This could have been avoided by allowing the chicane, or new tyres for ALL the teams, or any combination of those two, but instead they said they would withdraw the FIA sanctioning of the event and no points would be awarded. Why would altering the course for the reasons of safety have been deemed enough to remove the FIA sanctioning? No-one has asked that question yet have they?
This was a problem that could have been easily resolved by the FIA but they chose to be bloody-minded instead and so everyone got a little preview of what F-1 will look like in the not too distant future when the major manufacturers start up their own series....Any guesses as to which tyre company that fledgling series will be using?
This was a powerplay between the FIA, the manufacturers that have threatened to bugger-off, and Michelin.
No-one but the tifosi will pay money to see what we saw today repeated 16 times around the globe, but regular fans WILL pay to see BMW, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes and Renault duke it out, even if it is in the local Wal-Mart parking lot...
The FIA lost this one.
Big time.
So yeah, it's the tyre company's fault... :shakehead
eiregosod
06-19-05, 08:33 PM
the problem was that the piece of the tyre that failed was the ceonnection between the tyre wall & the contact patch. the 9% banking provides extra lateral loads, which due to the increased grip, would have caused higher loading to the tyres. Michelin were in a lose-lose situation, and guess what they lost.
The events that unfolded were an embarassment all around. OK Michelin screwed up but they owned up to it on FRIDAY. That left all day Saturday & sunday morning to sort something out, no one wanted to come to a compromise. The chicane option, would have been the same for every team, AND there would ahve been a proper race (penalties for the michelin teams could have been decided later, ie allow driver points but take away team points
and impose a massive fine on michelin) But hey, michelin didnt want to change the track configuration because they had a performance disadvantage, they wanted to change it on the grounds of driver safety. (something that the IRL cannot seem to do, in regards to rear impact crashes at the very same IMS corners)
eiregosod
06-19-05, 08:35 PM
2002 was the disastrous & mock finish with the two ferraris.
USGP attendees have been done over twice with F1
eiregosod
06-19-05, 08:37 PM
I
This was a powerplay between the FIA, the manufacturers that have threatened to bugger-off, and Michelin.
No-one but the tifosi will pay money to see what we saw today repeated 16 times around the globe, but regular fans WILL pay to see BMW, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes and Renault duke it out, even if it is in the local Wal-Mart parking lot...
The FIA lost this one.
Big time.
So yeah, it's the tyre company's fault... :shakehead
what we saw today was the future of F1, sans the GPWC cars ;)
we seen the future and it sucks.
yes, they should be able to predict all things... how silly of them. damn them for not being nostradamus!!!
ya, they F'ed up, but this isn't all their fault, instead of doing nothing but pointing fingers like a bunch of tools how about all sides come up with a solution to move forward in conjunction with a plan to avoid a future recurrence? no, wait, that'd mean no chance for certain organization(s) to vent their spleens for this years results...
Why in the world do you think all sides would come up with a solution to move forward? This is racing we're speaking of after all.
Dummy. :p
:D
And for some good news, Jacque$$$$ wasn't passed on track once today.
That is all. :p
Would someone please start a poll listing about 5 different "solutions" to today's problem?...but you can't go back any further than Friday, so no "TG screwed-up the track" stuff. Things like 1.) A safe and creatively thought-out chicane should have been built, installed and tested by early Sunday morning, with all Michelin runners starting in positions 7-20 based on qualifying times, with results and points earned during the race to be reviewed and finalized within 14 days. :) Others?
Even most of the drivers agreed. Bridgestone had it right, Michelin didn't. Why should the rules be changed to help the majority when they messed up?
Because you're not seeing the forest from the trees.
F1 holds a scam of the race because they hold fast to their rules. Michelin screwed up, it was a danger to put 70% of the field out there and let them run. Ferrari balks at the chicane. The race is held anyway with 6 cars.
Fans are pizzed and won't come back.
F1 is probably toast at Indy.
Except for Indy, I don't see a line formed anywhere in the U.S. of track owners wanting to run one of Bernies shows...... especially now.
F1's point championship is now askew and deserves an asterik.
All this for holding fast to some rules. This is an entertainment business beyond anything else. F1 failed to entertain today because of their rules.
Somethings broken there.
Ooo, Oooo. I have one...2.) The FIA should have taken the bull by the horns, assumed total responsibility for conducting the race and BANNED all Michelin-shod teams for providing unsafe equipment, resulting in exactly what we saw today, but leaving no doubt where the buck stopped. FIA President, Harry Truman! (it's called leadership :gomer: )
Why in the world do you think all sides would come up with a solution to move forward? This is racing we're speaking of after all.
Dummy. :p
:D
ya, I know... whenever there's a logical solution, turn tail and run the other way. :)
Al Czervik
06-19-05, 09:54 PM
Would someone please start a poll listing about 5 different "solutions" to today's problem?...but you can't go back any further than Friday, so no "TG screwed-up the track" stuff. Things like 1.) A safe and creatively thought-out chicane should have been built, installed and tested by early Sunday morning, with all Michelin runners starting in positions 7-20 based on qualifying times, with results and points earned during the race to be reviewed and finalized within 14 days. :) Others?
There is massive amount of blame to go around in this fiasco. In retrospect, how about this: Mich. announces Sun AM that there teams will not be participating due to safety issues. IMS announces that anyone wanting a refund (before the race) can get one. The race goes on with the six Bridgestone runners.
So much for F1 in the US...
Michelin couldn't make the cut. So, like any Frenchy, they quit. Waved the white flag, cut and run.
Bwahhahahahahahaha. Idiots.
stroker
06-19-05, 10:08 PM
I'll be very interested to see what Red Bull says. They spend all that money on "develop an American" and then the market gets crapped on like this? Wow.
Michelin couldn't make the cut. So, like any Frenchy, they quit. Waved the white flag, cut and run.
Bwahhahahahahahaha. Idiots.
It took awile for someone to have a France Surrenders take on this. :D
-Kevin
Sean O'Gorman
06-19-05, 10:22 PM
I made a few comments about it at the bar where about 20 of us were watching it and drinking for free (always a lovely combination :) ). I didn't say anything here because I assumed it would've been glaringly obvious.
eiregosod
06-19-05, 10:32 PM
withdrawing then saying that they were quitting??? yeah real smart
Why not race withthe shoddy tyres? Then after a few drivers hit the wall ,and after too many drivers injure or kill themselves, to decide to withdraw the rest of the michelin runners. That's a real sound policy right there. One that result in Michelin shareholders (taxpayers *cough* ;) ) spending the next ten years of their lives paying for all the litigation.
besides, Michelin are still leading both championships
Dr. Corkski
06-19-05, 10:48 PM
And for some good news, Jacque$$$$ wasn't passed on track once today.
That is all. :pBut now the Tiago Monteiro vs Newtown tally is 6-5. :p
Michelin = :cry:
Nobody was forcing the Michelin-shod teams to run flatout at T13. They could have slowed down to prevent the tire/safety problems that they were so worried about. A hastily put together chicane might end up being worse than no chicane at all. New tires are against regulations. All they had to do was slow down, and the whole safety issue was essentially gone. Those cowards knew that if they ran the race they would have been embarrassed by Bridgestone, so they pulled out to decimate the field and show and make Bridgestone look like the bad guys for not bending over backwards to cover Michelin's massive screw up.
Bottom line, the Frenchies screwed up and it's all Ferrari's fault. :gomer:
Jervis Tetch 1
06-20-05, 12:43 AM
There's enough blame to go around. Michelin, Ferrari, Bernie, Max and FIA.
oddlycalm
06-20-05, 12:56 AM
This was a problem that could have been easily resolved by the FIA Agreed, and Max's failure to make sure the race was safely run will be duly noted by those in both high and low places. Sitting in a chair and quoting the rules is a job any kid who can read could do. Real leadership involves solving problems, not creating them. Max screwed the pooch with this one.
I would have preferred that it didn't happen, but if it had to happen, I'm happy the IMS was the venue. What goes around may imbed itself in your posterior TG.... :p
oc
Agreed, and Max's failure to make sure the race was safely run will be duly noted by those in both high and low places. Sitting in a chair and quoting the rules is a job any kid who can read could do. Real leadership involves solving problems, not creating them. Max screwed the pooch with this one.
I would have preferred that it didn't happen, but if it had to happen, I'm happy the IMS was the venue. What goes around may imbed itself in your posterior TG.... :p
oc
but it's so much more fun to play ferrari fanboy and do nothing but throw lots and lots of blame on michigan :gomer:
Insomniac
06-20-05, 10:09 AM
there is no Ferrari conspiracy, you have to be able to win on your own to have a conspiracy first :gomer:
you don't go from making race-ready tires to ones that won't last more than 10 laps according to Michelin communique without some MAJOR changes in factors popping up, but yes, they're solely responsible for that huge swing in performance...
but yes, screw everyone else, you're right, after all "without Ferrari there would be no Forumula 1"... too bad the stands today said different. I mean, this isn't a sport, it's all about arguments, pissing matches, and politics, who wants to try to have a race when you can piss and moan and point fingers for the next year instead? finding a way to race while still giving ferrari/bridgestone the advantage they deserved is just too much to handle I guess...
I never said without Ferrari there would be no F1! I don't care if Brisdgestone messed up and had to park 6 cars.
The more and more I try to think about finding some compromise that everyone would agree to it seems harder. The first thing, all 10 teams would have to agree the race is for the fans first and foremost. Then the three Bridgestone teams would have to decide who gets what points under what conditions. If a Renault takes out a Ferrari, do they get 6th place even though without the Michelin cars they had a 1-2 guaranteed? I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it would all be pretty bad. People would complain about the racing being a farce since 14 teams couldn't get points.
Insomniac
06-20-05, 10:11 AM
Believe me, Bridgestone got almost no marketing value today for being associated with the most cynical, fan unfriendly event in motorsport history. Whatever they paid damaged them nearly as much as Michelin. Goodyear, Yokohama and other did better and it didn't cost them a dime.
Marketing value only comes in motorsport if you beat someone of value on a fair playing field. And if you don't beat someone at least be part of a positive and compelling show. Today Bridgestone proved to be the yellow rubber duck floating atop the sesspool.
If there wasn't so much money in play and so many fans involved I'd just write it off as a notable business disaster. But this will damage the entire sport I fear.
Really? I saw a manufacturer who made working tires and one who didn't. To me, Bridgestone came out looking far superior to Michelin.
Insomniac
06-20-05, 10:13 AM
the problem was that the piece of the tyre that failed was the ceonnection between the tyre wall & the contact patch. the 9% banking provides extra lateral loads, which due to the increased grip, would have caused higher loading to the tyres. Michelin were in a lose-lose situation, and guess what they lost.
The events that unfolded were an embarassment all around. OK Michelin screwed up but they owned up to it on FRIDAY. That left all day Saturday & sunday morning to sort something out, no one wanted to come to a compromise. The chicane option, would have been the same for every team, AND there would ahve been a proper race (penalties for the michelin teams could have been decided later, ie allow driver points but take away team points
and impose a massive fine on michelin) But hey, michelin didnt want to change the track configuration because they had a performance disadvantage, they wanted to change it on the grounds of driver safety. (something that the IRL cannot seem to do, in regards to rear impact crashes at the very same IMS corners)
They then wasted all day saturday flying in new tires and saying they didn't know what the problem was yet. Then made a Proposal late Saturday. Is the FIA supposed to just make changes without someone requesting them. (I'm not saying they would've with more notice.)
Insomniac
06-20-05, 10:16 AM
Because you're not seeing the forest from the trees.
F1 holds a scam of the race because they hold fast to their rules. Michelin screwed up, it was a danger to put 70% of the field out there and let them run. Ferrari balks at the chicane. The race is held anyway with 6 cars.
Fans are pizzed and won't come back.
F1 is probably toast at Indy.
Except for Indy, I don't see a line formed anywhere in the U.S. of track owners wanting to run one of Bernies shows...... especially now.
F1's point championship is now askew and deserves an asterik.
All this for holding fast to some rules. This is an entertainment business beyond anything else. F1 failed to entertain today because of their rules.
Somethings broken there.
Don't think i don't see that, but where I disagree is that this is a competion beyind anything else. Teams aren't spending all that moiney to entertain, they're out there to win. I wish the fans came first, but the reality is, they don't.
indyfan31
06-20-05, 11:29 AM
but it's so much more fun to play ferrari fanboy and do nothing but throw lots and lots of blame on michigan :gomer:
Another drunk post?
indyfan31
06-20-05, 11:35 AM
Odd that nobody's brought this up yet.
Yesterday's farce was a direct result of a series of rules changes by Max and the FIA. Most, if not all, of those rules changes were put in place to slow the Ferrari juggernaut of the last 5 years. Well, that worked well, didn't it?
Any blame left over can be shoveled into Michellin's corporate HQs.
The Blame Game;
1) FIA - Mosely stoooopid tire rules :shakehead
2) Michelin didn't do their homework for this track :thumdown:
3) Ferrari could have saved the day by agreeing to the chicane, thereby saving the USGP and gaining even more fans. What they gained....a few championship points which they very well may have gained had they agreed to the chicane anyway... :shakehead
4) Bernie - as much power as he has he couldn't have saved this? :confused:
Sean O'Gorman
06-20-05, 12:15 PM
Another drunk post?
No, hes correct. It's all Michigan's fault! :laugh:
Andrew Longman
06-20-05, 12:38 PM
Really? I saw a manufacturer who made working tires and one who didn't. To me, Bridgestone came out looking far superior to Michelin.
Maybe they made a better tire than Michelin and they took the top two spots, but how much will it motivate anyone to buy their product? I can give my money to Toyo, Yokohama, Dunlop, Pirelli and Goodyear without feeling like I got ick on myself. Yesterday created bad associations all around. Sports marketing is supposed to be about creating good associations
Andrew Longman
06-20-05, 12:46 PM
No, hes correct. It's all Michigan's fault! :laugh:
ohowIhateohiostate (I'm also a recovering Yuper :) )
Cleveland GP is cool though :D
JLMannin
06-20-05, 12:51 PM
The Blame Game;
3) Ferrari could have saved the day by agreeing to the chicane, thereby saving the USGP and gaining even more fans. What they gained....a few championship points which they very well may have gained had they agreed to the chicane anyway... :shakehead
Please explain to me how a team would gain championship points in a race where no championship points are awarded
Insomniac
06-20-05, 01:02 PM
Maybe they made a better tire than Michelin and they took the top two spots, but how much will it motivate anyone to buy their product? I can give my money to Toyo, Yokohama, Dunlop, Pirelli and Goodyear without feeling like I got ick on myself. Yesterday created bad associations all around. Sports marketing is supposed to be about creating good associations
I won't argue over what tire I'm going to buy next becuase for me personally, I don't care who wins a race. It doesn't make me go out and buy the product. All it does is raise my awareness of their product. I don't think a set of Michelin tires are going to fall apart on my Subaru any more than the Bridgestones that came with it.
Ed_Severson
06-20-05, 01:29 PM
Maybe they made a better tire than Michelin and they took the top two spots, but how much will it motivate anyone to buy their product?
I damn sure won't be putting a set of Michelins on my car anytime soon. I'm gonna need new tires in a few months, and I had pretty well decided it would be down to Michelin and Bridgestone. Michelin solved that dilemma for me quite handily.
Say what you will about your perception of good and bad publicity, but your assumption that your perception is reality doesn't hold much water.
Methanolandbrats
06-20-05, 01:35 PM
I don't think 99 % of motorists even know what brand of tires are on their car. Only enthusiasts care about that stuff. So the retail impact of this will probably be right around zero.
Spicoli
06-20-05, 01:52 PM
The Blame Game;
1) FIA - Mosely stoooopid tire rules :shakehead
2) Michelin didn't do their homework for this track :thumdown:
3) Ferrari could have saved the day by agreeing to the chicane, thereby saving the USGP and gaining even more fans. What they gained....a few championship points which they very well may have gained had they agreed to the chicane anyway...
4) Bernie - as much power as he has he couldn't have saved this?
atlas F1 has a story about Todt denying Ferrari was involved in ANY talks about a Chicane. :saywhat:
Ferrari "Never Involved" in Chicane Talks
By Jonathan Noble Monday, 20 June 2005 16:02
Ferrari sporting director Jean Todt has claimed that his team were not asked to support plans for a chicane to be built before the final corner ahead of the United States Grand Prix.
Please explain to me how a team would gain championship points in a race where no championship points are awarded
wasn't aware a non-points race was part of the agreement when I posted this...sorry.
Another drunk post?
*sigh*
nay, brainfade. :gomer:
oddlycalm
06-20-05, 10:38 PM
atlas F1 has a story about Todt denying Ferrari was involved in ANY talks about a Chicane. :saywhat: Confirmed by Frank Williams and also by the FIA. Mosely never let the chicane idea get off the ground and indicated that the race would not be sanctioned.
That said Ferrari did pre-emptively tell Charlie Whiting that they would oppose any course modications or bending of the rules at a very early stage of the drama.
oc
Insomniac
06-21-05, 04:30 PM
I damn sure won't be putting a set of Michelins on my car anytime soon. I'm gonna need new tires in a few months, and I had pretty well decided it would be down to Michelin and Bridgestone. Michelin solved that dilemma for me quite handily.
Say what you will about your perception of good and bad publicity, but your assumption that your perception is reality doesn't hold much water.
If I went to the race, I'd be pretty damn mad. i for sure wouldn't buy a Michelin product after that bitter taste. I completely get your position.
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