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Methanolandbrats
06-19-05, 11:07 PM
I read all this stuff. Were some of you on OJ's jury?
Michelin and the Michelin Teams did'nt test enough. It's their fault.
It's not the FIA's fault for enforcing rules. It's not FTG's fault for owning a racetrack. It's not Bridgestone's fault. It's not Ferrari's fault.
Geezus, get a grip on reality. The whole thing reminds me of when I bought very expensive basketball tickets to see Michael Jordan. He did'nt play because he was injured. I did'nt scream and thrash around on the floor like a two-year old, I was bummed, but life went on.
This whole situation began with the FIA (Max) one tire rule. That obviously stretched tire technology to the limit which led to numerous failures this year. It was a horrible idea. However, Michelin signed on to the idea and had a responsibility to produce a tire.
On to France :thumbup:
racer2c
06-19-05, 11:11 PM
It's Michelin's fault plain and simple. No if, and's or but's about it. This debacle made the national news and the angle was that there was something wrong with Michelin tires. I'm sure Michelin HQ is not happy, that is once they put down their Chablis and brie appetizer.
Michelin is at fault to the teams. The teams are at fault to F1. F1 is at fault to the FIA. The FIA is at fault to the promoter;FTG. FTG is at fault to the paid attendees. The paid attendees are at fault for supporting IMS.
So, in essence, every party is at fault. :p
devilmaster
06-19-05, 11:18 PM
I read all this stuff. Were some of you on OJ's jury?
If it don't fit, you must acquit.
I read all this stuff. Were some of you on OJ's jury?
No, but I was on Whacko Jacko's.... :gomer:
-Kevin
Michelin and the Michelin Teams did'nt test enough. It's their fault.
They did test enough enough to determine that they didn't want to race.
Yeah, this thing is all on Michelin. But where do we go now? Bridgestone wants to rub their nose in it, Ferrari is more than happy to get the points. But the fans are screwed. A Rubens-Michael duel is laughable.
But it's still Michelin's fault.
Okay, okay. but, Juan Pablo's fans came all the way from Colombia to see him race. Ditto for many other drivers. I respect the need to retain the purity of the sport, but in this case screw it. Think about the fans and sponsors. Put the chicane in and run the race and only award points or purse money to the Bridgestone-shod cars.
The fans get a race, the Bridgestone cars get the points and the Sponsors get what they paid for.
oddlycalm
06-20-05, 01:11 AM
It's not FTG's fault for owning a racetrack. It's not Bridgestone's fault. Dude, read the fine print. "In the event there is a problem with any aspect of professional formula car racing it is the sole fault of Tony George."
FTG and his gomer-go-round. :gomer:
oc
Hard Driver
06-20-05, 08:27 AM
Yes, Michelin CAUSED the problem.
I don't know what business you are in, I am in IT. I have problems all the time. A server dies, a software is buggy, lots of times there are problems. I have to find solutions to problems, and just saying that a drive failed and CAUSED the problem is not enough of an excuse of why the entire company can't work. The next question is how am I going to SOLVE the problem.
You are right that Michelin should be #1 on the ***** list. But the fact that the FIA and Formula 1 was unable to solve the problem put them on the **** list too.
spinner26
06-20-05, 09:00 AM
Were some of you on OJ's jury?
No, but I was on Robert Blakes. :shakehead , just kidding.
Bridgestone had the results from the firestone test with the ftg league and Michelin did not. No testing, new surface and they pooched the monkey, lifes a beach. :cry:
There should be no refunds as there was a 73 lap race that included six cars. Too bad so sad. Not right but it is what it is. :confused:
Who cares who's fault it is. Anything that makes FTG and the speedway look bad is a good thing. :)
Insomniac
06-20-05, 09:45 AM
They did test enough enough to determine that they didn't want to race.
Yeah, this thing is all on Michelin. But where do we go now? Bridgestone wants to rub their nose in it, Ferrari is more than happy to get the points. But the fans are screwed. A Rubens-Michael duel is laughable.
But it's still Michelin's fault.
Okay, okay. but, Juan Pablo's fans came all the way from Colombia to see him race. Ditto for many other drivers. I respect the need to retain the purity of the sport, but in this case screw it. Think about the fans and sponsors. Put the chicane in and run the race and only award points or purse money to the Bridgestone-shod cars.
The fans get a race, the Bridgestone cars get the points and the Sponsors get what they paid for.
Why wouldn't Bridgestone want a race to happen based on rules? They've been making the inferior tire all season long and finally Michelin screwed up (big time). I don't understand why you say them and Ferrari are trying to rub Michelin and the other teams faces in it. If you are spending hundreds of $millions to win rcaes, why would you do anything besides win?
No question the fans got screwed, but auto racing is a competition first and entertainment second. Unfortunately, a lot of revenue comes from the entertainment side and a lot more people are affected.
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 09:46 AM
I blame Michelin as well... the blame Ferrari crowd are something else tho' :rolleyes: :laugh:
Insomniac
06-20-05, 09:47 AM
They did test enough enough to determine that they didn't want to race.
Yeah, this thing is all on Michelin. But where do we go now? Bridgestone wants to rub their nose in it, Ferrari is more than happy to get the points. But the fans are screwed. A Rubens-Michael duel is laughable.
But it's still Michelin's fault.
Okay, okay. but, Juan Pablo's fans came all the way from Colombia to see him race. Ditto for many other drivers. I respect the need to retain the purity of the sport, but in this case screw it. Think about the fans and sponsors. Put the chicane in and run the race and only award points or purse money to the Bridgestone-shod cars.
The fans get a race, the Bridgestone cars get the points and the Sponsors get what they paid for.
Also, what happens when a Michelin car takes out a Ferrari who were all but assured 1-2 if they could make it to the end problem free?
Andrew Longman
06-20-05, 09:49 AM
Root cause and responsibility for the tire safety issue in on Michelin, no doubt.
But knowing the cause and what you do about it are two different things. The fans booing around the world could have been avoided if the situation had been handled differently.
Methanolandbrats
06-20-05, 09:50 AM
On WindTunnel last night Peter Windsor said there was a Michelin Tire Test at Indy, but the Michelin Teams only sent two drivers. If that's true, it squashes the Ferrari/Bridgestone/secret data theory. Michelin was caught with their pants around their ankles.
Insomniac
06-20-05, 09:50 AM
No, but I was on Robert Blakes. :shakehead , just kidding.
Bridgestone had the results from the firestone test with the ftg league and Michelin did not. No testing, new surface and they pooched the monkey, lifes a beach. :cry:
There should be no refunds as there was a 73 lap race that included six cars. Too bad so sad. Not right but it is what it is. :confused:
I don't know where all this speculation that the Firestone Indy test helped them. They didn't test on the road course. Did they learn you need tougher sidewalls on ovals? I'd think they might know that from the past 10 years in CART and IRL. Maybe even the last 5 USGPs? <ichelin dropped the ball. I seriously doubt it was because of testing. They were able to predict what they needed before withiout a problem. These tires couldn't even last as long as last year's tires.
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 10:07 AM
I blame Michelin as well... the blame Ferrari crowd are something else tho' :rolleyes: :laugh:
Yeah, it's not like Ferrari were the only team NOT to agree with the installation of a temporary chicane, or that they are the only team to sign on with the FIA through 2012, or that they have negotiated absolute veto power into that very same contract...
This was a power play between the FIA, Michelin and everyone but Ferrari.
They lost.
Unless Max resigns, Bernie retires to take up being a gnome full-time, there will be more of yesterday's "races" from 2008 on...
The manufacturers will bugger off and do their own thing, and you can all talk about how all of this is Michelin's fault and NOT the FIA.... :shakehead
Methanolandbrats
06-20-05, 10:13 AM
Yeah, it's not like Ferrari were the only team NOT to agree with the installation of a temporary chicane, or that they are the only team to sign on with the FIA through 2012, or that they have negotiated absolute veto power into that very same contract...
This was a power play between the FIA, Michelin and everyone but Ferrari.
They lost.
Unless Max resigns, Bernie retires to take up being a gnome full-time, there will be more of yesterday's "races" from 2008 on...
The manufacturers will bugger off and do their own thing, and you can all talk about how all of this is Michelin's fault and NOT the FIA.... :shakehead Why should Ferrari participate in a non-points event when they got things right? For the sake of the "show"? Because F1 is a kind, altruistic venture and they should feel sympathy for Michelin? If you want to bitch about Ferrari's veto of the chicane, look upstream to Max who decided such an event would be meaningless.
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 10:22 AM
..and as I have said in other posts I still want to get an explanation as to why the sanction would have been removed...They have installed temporary chicanes in the past, what's the big deal with this weekend?
How fast do you think that temporary chicane would have gone up if it were Bridgestone's tyres that were unsafe and Ferrari was threatening a boycott?
If you answer that question honestly you will see where the real problem lies.
Methanolandbrats
06-20-05, 10:37 AM
..and as I have said in other posts I still want to get an explanation as to why the sanction would have been removed...They have installed temporary chicanes in the past, what's the big deal with this weekend?
How fast do you think that temporary chicane would have gone up if it were Bridgestone's tyres that were unsafe and Ferrari was threatening a boycott?
If you answer that question honestly you will see where the real problem lies. The vote would have been 7-3 against the chicane if Bridgestone had problems. Therefore no chicane. If the Michelin teams had Ferrari by the #####, there is no way they would cut them any slack.
Max said no points for a chicane race because Max has never gotten a single thing right in his entire career.
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 10:43 AM
Max said no points for a chicane race because Max has never gotten a single thing right in his entire career.
A truer statement I have not heard....
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 10:43 AM
incredible. they get it right and its their fault for not suddenly turning into club racers :laugh:
one of the largest tire manufacturers in the world could not design a tire to last ~75 laps (with qualifying) for a circuit that they've raced on for 5 years and you're blaming Ferrari. that is ultimate :gomer:
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 10:46 AM
incredible. they get it right and its their fault for not suddenly turning into club racers :laugh:
one of the largest tire manufacturers in the world could not design a tire to last ~75 laps (with qualifying) for a circuit that they've raced on for 5 years and you're blaming Ferrari. that is ultimate :gomer:
Wow, way to entirely miss the point..... :saywhat:
indyfan31
06-20-05, 10:49 AM
How fast do you think that temporary chicane would have gone up if it were Bridgestone's tyres that were unsafe and Ferrari was threatening a boycott?
This is pure conjecture on your part TB and you know it. As usual, your hatred of Schumacher and Ferrari keep you from making any sense.
On the other hand, it's nice to know you haven't changed a bit.
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 10:52 AM
This is pure conjecture on your part TB and you know it. As usual, your hatred of Schumacher and Ferrari keep you from making any sense.
On the other hand, it's nice to know you haven't changed a bit.
Of course it is, that's why it was asked in the form of a question.... :gomer:
I'm sorry, do I know you? Where did I blame Schumacher? I hate Ferrari? You don't know the first thing about me matey....
Andrew Longman
06-20-05, 11:01 AM
A truer statement I have not heard....
True :thumbup:
IMO 70% of the blame rests with Michelin and 30% rests with Ferrari. Michelin showed up unprepared and supposedly Ferrari was the only team that was unwilling to race with the chicane. Ferrari probably saw that they had a win locked up with only 6 cars on the track. They did the math, they knew what was up and poached a win due to this situation.
JLMannin
06-20-05, 12:39 PM
IMO 70% of the blame rests with Michelin and 30% rests with Ferrari. Michelin showed up unprepared and supposedly Ferrari was the only team that was unwilling to race with the chicane. Ferrari probably saw that they had a win locked up with only 6 cars on the track. They did the math, they knew what was up and poached a win due to this situation.
Wow! So F1 teams are not to have the desire to win? Up until Montreal, Michelin had outclassed Bridgestone at each race up to that point. Bridgestone got the tires right, Michelin did not. Why should Ferarri agree to the chicane and make it a non-points race and throw away championship points? I thinkl it was stupid for the FIA to say they would remove the sanction if the chicane was put in. It's the FIA's job to do what is good for the sport, not Ferarri's. It's Ferarri's job to go out and win races and score championship points. If you want to give Michelin 70% fault, then split the remaining 30% fault between the FIA for threatening to remove the sanction for putting in the chicane and the speedway for doing a hack job on the repaving that resulted in the track having to be diamond ground. (I propose a 25-5 split for the remaining fauld between the FIA and the speedway)
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 12:46 PM
The FIA has STILL not explained why they would have removed the sanctioning of the race. They have altered tracks in the past on a race weekend due to safety issues, why was this such a big deal?
If (God forbid) Ralph had been seriously injured or killed in practice would the FIA STILL have dug in their heels? I don't believe so.
This was a safety issue and the FIA acted reprehensibly.
Insomniac
06-20-05, 12:53 PM
..and as I have said in other posts I still want to get an explanation as to why the sanction would have been removed...They have installed temporary chicanes in the past, what's the big deal with this weekend?
How fast do you think that temporary chicane would have gone up if it were Bridgestone's tyres that were unsafe and Ferrari was threatening a boycott?
If you answer that question honestly you will see where the real problem lies.
They installed the chicanes for the safety of everyone, not because a manufacturer dropped the ball. Honestly, I don't know what would happen if Bridgestone dropped the ball or presume I would.
I do know if they did, these Ferrari conspiracy theories would continue and if they didn't, a lot of people wouldn't be complaining abouyt only 14 cars but laughing at Bridgestone and Ferrari.
How many rules do they have to change to hurt Ferrari to believe they don't control F1?
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 01:31 PM
whaaaaaaa the FIA isn't compassionate about our junk tires... whaaaaaaa :cry:
why aren't you blaming god for not making it rain... that would have prevented this mess too :gomer: x 100000
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 01:38 PM
whaaaaaaa the FIA isn't compassionate about our junk tires... whaaaaaaa
why aren't you blaming god for not making it rain... that would have prevented this mess too :gomer: x 100000
whaaaaaaaa the FIA isn't compassionate about the safety of the drivers or the fans....
:gomer: x :shakehead = :thumdown:
Just imagine what would happen if the FIA had forced the teams to race with unsafe tyres and there had been a monumental wreck that injured or killed drivers and/or fans....
Would you still be poking fun then?
indyfan31
06-20-05, 01:40 PM
Of course it is, that's why it was asked in the form of a question.... :gomer:
I'm sorry, do I know you? Where did I blame Schumacher? I hate Ferrari? You don't know the first thing about me matey....
You're absolutely right TB, the years of posts at 7thGear didn't count.
Does the expression "dirty, chopping, cheating bastard" bring back memories?
Just imagine what would happen if the FIA had forced the teams to race with unsafe tyres and there had been a monumental wreck that injured or killed drivers and/or fans....
Would you still be poking fun then?
As long as he was able to duck in time, it's likely he would be, yes. :laugh:
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 01:50 PM
You're absolutely right TB, the years of posts at 7thGear didn't count.
Does the expression "dirty, chopping, cheating bastard" bring back memories?
How does the expression, or my use of it, place blame of this weekend's farce at Schumacher's feet...?
How does that expression, or my use of it have anything to do with hating Ferrari? Remember he was a dirty, chopping, cheating bastard at Benetton too?
I don't blame Schumacher for this weekend, contrary to your contortionist's logic, nor do I hate Ferrari....
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 01:56 PM
the FIA presented Michelin and the teams with a series of options. they didn't like any of them... so they took their ball and went home.
burn (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/190605-02.html) :gomer:
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 02:00 PM
The FIA didn't present squat. All of their "options" were lip-service at best.
The FIA called Michelin's bluff and they lost.
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 02:11 PM
my computer is slower than yours. I think we should put a restrictor plate on your 'puter or sumthin' like that. I'm having a hard time keeping up with your changing opinions. in the interest of fairness y'know :gomer:
how is offering the teams to change the affected tire repeatedly paying them lip-service?
Michelin lost, the teams lost, IMS lost, and most importantly, the fans lost. The FIA got paid and that is all that was ever in it for them. They lost nothing.
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 02:24 PM
my computer is slower than yours. I think we should put a restrictor plate on your 'puter or sumthin' like that. I'm having a hard time keeping up with your changing opinions. in the interest of fairness y'know :gomer:
how is offering the teams to change the affected tire repeatedly paying them lip-service?
Changing the tyre repeatedly, subjecting them to potential exclusion if the FIA didn't agree with the team's call that the tyre was about to go pop, is paying lip service, as is the "inform your teams of the maximum speed through turn 13" line..
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 02:31 PM
no... its offering a safe alternative to a messed up situation that the FIA did not cause. and it doesn't penalize the hard work that Bridgestone and their teams put in. they didn't like it obviously... and they sat it out :cry:
now Ferrari are leglitimately back in with a shot. 18 points yesterday :thumbup:
I didn't feel screwed at all yesterday. I witnessed F1 history... ;)
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 02:39 PM
no... its offering a safe alternative to a messed up situation that the FIA did not cause. and it doesn't penalize the hard work that Bridgestone and their teams put in. they didn't like it obviously... and they sat it out
now Ferrari are leglitimately back in with a shot. 18 points yesterday :thumbup:
I didn't feel screwed at all yesterday. I witnessed F1 history... ;)
I'm sorry, but this made me laugh..."legitimately".... :saywhat: beating the Jordans and the Minardis, and ONLY the Jordans and Minardis is "legitimately"??
:rofl:
Tire Management is always a factor. Could Kimi or Alonso beat a Jordan or a Minardi if they had to back off in T13 or come in a couple more times for tires? I dunno, but it woulda been fun finding out.
Methanolandbrats
06-20-05, 02:45 PM
I'm sorry, but this made me laugh..."legitimately".... :saywhat: beating the Jordans and the Minardis, and ONLY the Jordans and Minardis is "legitimately"??
:rofl:Ferrari followed the rules and were prepared. What the hell do you want them to do? Should Ross and Jean give Ron and Frank big hugs and tell them how sorry they are they can't race, so they will park the Ferrari's and everyone will just have a big f'n picnic. No it was'nt a great race win, but yes the points were legitimately earned.
The race should have gone on, and Michelin and their teams should have dealt with it by driving within the rules and within the limitations of their machines.
They are, after all, the most hi-tech cars and most talented drivers in the world. At least that’s what they say year after year. They should have acted like it.
I never watch or go to the Grand Prix of Gomervile because of contempt for Tony George, and a part of me is thinking, “What goes around comes around.” But no one in all of motor racing has exhibited such contempt for the fans as the owners of the Michelin shod teams at Gomerville this year. The world has really been turned on its ear when I am feeling some empathy for Tony George, a man who until now I viewed as the most selfish, short-sighted and stupid man in motor racing.
Grand Prix indeed.
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 02:46 PM
"legitimately"
:rofl:
:gomer:
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 02:47 PM
they qualified on the same tires they raced on. they passed scrutineering. they went 73 laps and took the checkered flag. they passed post-race scrutineering.
I suggest you look up the word. then you can tell me what was illegitimate about Ferrari's win yesterday.
good luck :thumbup:
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 02:48 PM
they qualified on the same tires they raced on. they passed scrutineering. they went 73 laps and took the checkered flag. the passed post-race scrutineering.
I suggest you look up the word. then you can tell me what was illegitimate about Ferrari's win yesterday.
good luck :thumbup:
I'll let you figure that out.....
indyfan31
06-20-05, 02:51 PM
How does the expression, or my use of it, place blame of this weekend's farce at Schumacher's feet...?
How does that expression, or my use of it have anything to do with hating Ferrari? Remember he was a dirty, chopping, cheating bastard at Benetton too?
I don't blame Schumacher for this weekend, contrary to your contortionist's logic, nor do I hate Ferrari....
Once again I apologize.
You don't blame Schumacher and hate Ferrari.
You hate Schumacher and blame Ferrari.
My mistake.
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 02:56 PM
Once again I apologize.
You don't blame Schumacher and hate Ferrari.
You hate Schumacher and blame Ferrari.
My mistake.
By Jove I do believe you've got it!!! ;)
But as an aside, the dirty, cheating, chopping bastard, and the team he drives for, are not to blame for, and are not responsible for yesterday's "race"....
Schumacher did exactly what the other drivers did. They followed their contractual obligations to their teams.
The vote would have been 7-3 against the chicane if Bridgestone had problems.
Let's be honest,if it was Bridgestone(and by extension,Ferrari)that was having this problem...there wouldn't have been a vote on a chicane. It would have been imposed by the FIA without consent or consideration.
IMO,Michelin screwed the pooch. BIG TIME. Everything after that was just politics. :thumdown:
You can't blame the teams for not racing in unsafe conditions.
The ultimate blame goes to the Men of Power in F1. Max and Bernie love having the power and everything that goes along with it, but when it came time to use that power, they scurried away like the cockroaches they are. Michelin may have screwed up, but Max and Bernie are responsible for cheating over 100,000 fans. Pathetic.
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 03:04 PM
that's ridiculous. Bernie while influential, for sure, is the head of the FOM. they have no sway on the sporting side of F1 at all. Max is the president of the FIA... and well... we've already seen that they offered a safe alternative. team's didn't like it... oh well.
no one can make these teams compete.
Methanolandbrats
06-20-05, 03:20 PM
Let's be honest,if it was Bridgestone(and by extension,Ferrari)that was having this problem...there wouldn't have been a vote on a chicane. It would have been imposed by the FIA without consent or consideration The teams need a unanimous vote. If the FIA favors Ferrari, why has the FIA enacted rule after rule for the last two years aimed at derailing Ferrari? If Bridgestone had the problem and the chicane was'tn put in, all you anti-Ferrari types would be laughing and saying "thems the rules", if the chicane was put in, you'd be bitching because Ferrari received special treatment. Michelin and Michelin teams were not ready to race. They lost. Ferrari got the points because they were ready to race. That's all there is to it.
indyfan31
06-20-05, 03:28 PM
By Jove I do believe you've got it!!! ;)
... took me long enough!!! :)
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 03:33 PM
... took me long enough!!! :)
:D
that's ridiculous. Bernie while influential, for sure, is the head of the FOM. they have no sway on the sporting side of F1 at all. Max is the president of the FIA... and well... we've already seen that they offered a safe alternative. team's didn't like it... oh well.
no one can make these teams compete.
What was that safe alternative? Going slower in front of other cars going flat-out? Telling racing drivers to go slow? How slow?
Totally impractical, and Max didn't get the job done. The mark of a bad leader.
racer2c
06-20-05, 03:50 PM
What was that safe alternative? Going slower in front of other cars going flat-out? Telling racing drivers to go slow? How slow?
Totally impractical, and Max didn't get the job done. The mark of a bad leader.
"Mr. Ecclestone, my cars engines could blow up when revved over 15000K potentially causing harm to the driver. Would you add a chicane so that's fair and safe?"
Bernie: "Drive Slower."
"Mr. Eccelstone, the safety belts in my cars inexplicably tighten when the car exceeds 180mph. This has the potential of making the eyes of the driver pop out of their head. Would you add a chicane to slow all of the cars down?"
bernie: "Drive Slower."
"Mr. Eccelstone, my Michelin tires inexplicably blow when navigating through Indy's turn 13. Would you add a chicane to slow all of the cars down?"
bernie: "Drive Slower."
Two of those scenerios were fake. :gomer:
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 03:51 PM
ummmm... they practiced all weekend at speed. I'm sure that Michelin, having studied the data, know approx. what period of time the tire is good for (how many laps). if they were allowed to change tires at those recommended intervals... they would not have to run 13 any slower than anyone else.
ofcourse knowing that they'd get their doors blown off over a race distance = :cry:
Dr. Corkski
06-20-05, 04:22 PM
ummmm... they practiced all weekend at speed. I'm sure that Michelin, having studied the data, know approx. what period of time the tire is good for (how many laps). if they were allowed to change tires at those recommended intervals... they would not have to run 13 any slower than anyone else.
ofcourse knowing that they'd get their doors blown off over a race distance = :cry:Exactly, instead of accepting the error in which the penalty was embarrassment in the race, Michelin took the low road and decided to take down the sport as a whole. :thumdown:
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 04:25 PM
ummmm... they practiced all weekend at speed. I'm sure that Michelin, having studied the data, know approx. what period of time the tire is good for (how many laps). if they were allowed to change tires at those recommended intervals... they would not have to run 13 any slower than anyone else.
ofcourse knowing that they'd get their doors blown off over a race distance = :cry:
Michelin said they were good enough for maybe 10 laps.
The FIA said fair enough, change them, but be prepared to have them inspected to make sure that they were really dangerous. Great attitude about safety from the regulators.
I guess if Ralph had popped his clogs on Friday all of this posturing and wanking about would be moot....
Dr. Corkski
06-20-05, 04:28 PM
Michelin said they were good enough for maybe 10 laps.
The FIA said fair enough, change them, but be prepared to have them inspected to make sure that they were really dangerous. Great attitude about safety from the regulators.
I guess if Ralph had popped his clogs on Friday all of this posturing and wanking about would be moot....But there still would have been a race of some sort, 14 cars competiting for points 7th and 8th. Michelin knew it had a majority and wanted to bully its way to a free pass for their own screw up.
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 04:29 PM
the FIA were essentially allowing teams to break a rule by allowing them to change more than one tire during the race... that flexibility kinda leads one to believe that they would have accepted Michelin's suggested lifespan of the tire... and that no further evidence would be required.
a safe and fair alternative was on the table.
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 04:31 PM
I'd think that McLaren, Renault et al, would have a shot at the Jordans and Minardis... even on a 6 stop strategy.
Dr. Corkski
06-20-05, 04:32 PM
I'd think that McLaren, Renault et al, would have a shot at the Jordans and Minardis... even on a 6 stop strategy.But Michelin is entitled to beat that evil red empire!!111!!!!ONE11!!! :gomer:
Although this never would've happened, here's what I would've done:
Put in the chicane.
Tell all the Michelin teams: "We are going to subtract 50 points from your grand totals right now. You can race for points as usual today, with the chicane."
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 04:36 PM
But there still would have been a race of some sort, 14 cars competiting for points 7th and 8th. Michelin knew it had a majority and wanted to bully its way to a free pass for their own screw up.
You really can't see the forest for the trees can you?
This was the first shot in the war that's about to happen between the FIA and the GPWC. The upcoming meeting in Paris on the 29th will likely determine not only the immediate future of this season, but quite possibly the future of F-1 as we know it.
Dr. Corkski
06-20-05, 04:45 PM
You really can't see the forest for the trees can you?
This was the first shot in the war that's about to happen between the FIA and the GPWC. The upcoming meeting in Paris on the 29th will likely determine not only the immediate future of this season, but quite possibly the future of F-1 as we know it.Man, the Michelin fans had me convinced that it was all about the evil red regulators not caring about safety. :gomer:
Winston Wolfe
06-20-05, 04:51 PM
By Jove I do believe you've got it!!! ;)
But as an aside, the dirty, cheating, chopping bastard, and the team he drives for, are not to blame for, and are not responsible for yesterday's "race"....
Schumacher did exactly what the other drivers did. They followed their contractual obligations to their teams.
TrueBrit - cheers, pip, pip and TallyHo !!!
Nice to see you back on the boards in a spirited discussion of the "business" side of the sport ! Always appreciate your insight. :thumbup:
But in your description of the "Red Devil", you have forgotten to mention "pointy chinned", when mentioning "dirty, cheating, chopping bastard"....
Just thought I'd help !
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 04:55 PM
BUGGER!!!!
I KNEW there was something not quite right about the way that phrase looked....
"Pointy-Chinned, Dirty, Cheating, Chopping Bastard" it is then!!! :rofl: :rofl:
trauma1
06-20-05, 04:58 PM
i really don't see how bernie and max can do a damn thing with out the whole lot bailing to GPwc, it seems this is just the excuse they were looking for :shakehead
Wow! So F1 teams are not to have the desire to win? Up until Montreal, Michelin had outclassed Bridgestone at each race up to that point. Bridgestone got the tires right, Michelin did not. Why should Ferarri agree to the chicane and make it a non-points race and throw away championship points? I thinkl it was stupid for the FIA to say they would remove the sanction if the chicane was put in. It's the FIA's job to do what is good for the sport, not Ferarri's. It's Ferarri's job to go out and win races and score championship points. If you want to give Michelin 70% fault, then split the remaining 30% fault between the FIA for threatening to remove the sanction for putting in the chicane and the speedway for doing a hack job on the repaving that resulted in the track having to be diamond ground. (I propose a 25-5 split for the remaining fauld between the FIA and the speedway)
F1 Teams should never lose their desire to win. And Ferrari should never lose their desire for winning cheap and bilking the fans.
TorontoWorker
06-20-05, 05:20 PM
F1 Teams should never lose their desire to win. And Ferrari should never lose their desire for winning cheap and bilking the fans.
What the hell does this mean? Whata ya work for IMS or something - it makes about as much sense as one of their news releases?
What exactly doesn't make sense to you? Jean Todt went sniffing around and saw a way to poach an easy win. If they had any honor maybe they would have agreed to adding the chicane and maybe there would have been something resembling a race.
Dr. Corkski
06-20-05, 05:52 PM
What exactly doesn't make sense to you? Jean Todt went sniffing around and saw a way to poach an easy win. If they had any honor maybe they would have agreed to adding the chicane and maybe there would have been something resembling a race.Why should he care about Michelin? That's their own damn problem. Ferrari showed up and was ready to race, that's all Todt should have worried about. It's not his responsibility to make sure that his competitors show up with the right equipment to race.
Dirty Sanchez
06-20-05, 05:56 PM
if you don't believe us... maybe you'll listen to Frank Williams.
Ferrari Totally Innocent, Says Williams
Team principal Frank Williams believes World Champions Ferrari were completely innocent of any wrongdoings during the United States Grand Prix fiasco.
The FIA rejected a request from the Michelin teams for a temporary chicane to be installed before the final banked turn to reduce speeds. Ferrari said they were opposing the move but that the decision was for the FIA to make.
Ferrari won Sunday's 'race' with World Champion Michael Schumacher leading home Brazilian teammate Rubens Barrichello in what was effectively a two-car contest.
Williams said the Italian team, who use Bridgestone tyres, were blameless for everything that happened at Indianapolis. "They were totally innocent in this affair entirely," Williams told Reuters. "They had no reason not to race."
No wait... I'm sure Frank was in on it too... and David Richards!!!!! :gomer: :cry: :gomer:
Methanolandbrats
06-20-05, 06:13 PM
What exactly doesn't make sense to you? Jean Todt went sniffing around and saw a way to poach an easy win. If they had any honor maybe they would have agreed to adding the chicane and maybe there would have been something resembling a race.Went sniffing around? :saywhat: WTF are you talking about. The USGP was scheduled for at least a year, plenty of time for the teams to read the rulebook, prepare their cars and come to the grid. That is what Ferrari did and the Michelin teams failed to do. Once Max said a chicane race would not be a points race, why the hell should the Bridgestone teams participate in that after spending millions to prepare? There is not a single Michelin Team that would have agreed to a non-points race if the situation was reversed. Some of you people hate Ferrari so much you are delusional. And no, I don't care about the "show". I am a motor racing fan and If I wanted to go to a show I'd buy a ticket to broadway.
Methanolandbrats
06-20-05, 06:55 PM
:crickets:...........................this thread got kinda quiet......... :D
TrueBrit
06-20-05, 07:09 PM
:crickets:...........................this thread got kinda quiet......... :D
..um...okay..what show on Broadway would you buy tickets for?
incredible. they get it right and its their fault for not suddenly turning into club racers :laugh:
one of the largest tire manufacturers in the world could not design a tire to last ~75 laps (with qualifying) for a circuit that they've raced on for 5 years and you're blaming Ferrari. that is ultimate :gomer:
the fact you believe a flagship program of a major international commercial firm would get it so wrong w/o major unforseable problems thrown in the way is ultimate :gomer: as well
Mosley's paid to manage, and he failed completely. Blame comes last, solutions and execution of those solutions comes first. That is the chief administrator's charge, and he failed in a most pathetic manner.
Methanolandbrats
06-20-05, 09:50 PM
..um...okay..what show on Broadway would you buy tickets for? Not sure, I'm at a cultural low point and not up on the theater scene :D We still have to do that fish n chips and Bass Ale thing in Chicago..........remember the 7G conversation? :laugh: That is if I come to Chicago again, it took me three hours to get out of the ####ing place last time :mad:
TrueBrit
06-21-05, 12:32 AM
Yup..I'm still up for the F+C and beer gig...The Elephant and Castle, Adams St, Chicago they have much, MUCH better beer to offer than plain old Bass...Fuller's London Pride comes to mind.... :thumbup:
racer2c
06-21-05, 12:43 AM
Why should he care about Michelin? That's their own damn problem. Ferrari showed up and was ready to race, that's all Todt should have worried about. It's not his responsibility to make sure that his competitors show up with the right equipment to race.
Amen. :thumbup:
I have yet to see any solutions suggested by the folks who blame Max and company as to what they should have done. Put the chicane in? So penalize the Bridgestone shod teams. Wrong. Abandon the rules and let them run a different tire? Wrong. It really played out the only way that it could and should have played out. F1 was in the national news with this story. Even Shuey himself can't do that. The next green flag will put this in the history books and that will be the end of it. Except, the era of tire wars is over. There will be one tire supplier next year and it won't be Michelin.
Lizzerd
06-21-05, 01:04 AM
Bottom line is:
On Sunday, Bridgestone won, Michelin lost.
End of story.
Amen. :thumbup:
I have yet to see any solutions suggested by the folks who blame Max and company as to what they should have done. Put the chicane in? So penalize the Bridgestone shod teams. Wrong. Abandon the rules and let them run a different tire? Wrong. It really played out the only way that it could and should have played out. F1 was in the national news with this story. Even Shuey himself can't do that. The next green flag will put this in the history books and that will be the end of it. Except, the era of tire wars is over. There will be one tire supplier next year and it won't be Michelin.
solutions are his job, not ours. if you can't handle the task you oversee then step aside. lots of people fly from foreign countries and spend multiple thousands for their GP vacations, this isn't going to be forgotten by those thousands of people
Insomniac
06-21-05, 07:56 AM
Changing the tyre repeatedly, subjecting them to potential exclusion if the FIA didn't agree with the team's call that the tyre was about to go pop, is paying lip service, as is the "inform your teams of the maximum speed through turn 13" line..
I don't think they were risking exclusion. The rules allow tire changes based on safety reasons and one change for one tire no questions asked. There was a known problem that would allow the change. They also would not gain any advantage because they would not be able to fuel when they changed tires.
Insomniac
06-21-05, 07:59 AM
What was that safe alternative? Going slower in front of other cars going flat-out? Telling racing drivers to go slow? How slow?
Totally impractical, and Max didn't get the job done. The mark of a bad leader.
They offered to penalize Michelin cars that went over the limit set by Michelin. :)
Insomniac
06-21-05, 08:07 AM
Amen. :thumbup:
I have yet to see any solutions suggested by the folks who blame Max and company as to what they should have done. Put the chicane in? So penalize the Bridgestone shod teams. Wrong. Abandon the rules and let them run a different tire? Wrong. It really played out the only way that it could and should have played out. F1 was in the national news with this story. Even Shuey himself can't do that. The next green flag will put this in the history books and that will be the end of it. Except, the era of tire wars is over. There will be one tire supplier next year and it won't be Michelin.
I actually think they would've allowed the tire change with some type of penalty. Perhaps make them start on what they have and then change them. And add a stop and go for good measure.
Andrew Longman
06-21-05, 10:56 AM
According to the letter sent to Michelin (posted somewhere here), the Michelin engineers predicted the left rear tire could last 10 laps. The FIA suggest they pit every 9 laps and replace the tire without penalty since it was for safety reasons. If they went over their total allotment of tires for the weekend appropriate penalties will be considered.
Yes that's what the rules state, and anything else would have been unfair to Ferrari/Bridgestone, but it would also have produced a ridiculous result. Brainless. What's fair to the fan and what's in the interest of the sport must carry the greatest weight.
Put the darn chicane in, give everyone new rubber, reschedule the race, ANYTHING except what they did.
THEN, on Monday haul Michelin in, fine them, slap them about the face and tell them that if this ever happens again they will be thown out of F1 and face the marketing fiasco that will result for them.
AND MAYBE, haul the Michelin teams in and fine them and/or deduct points for bringing a sub standard supplier to the race. I think it is a matter of debate how responsible they were for all this but I think its likely a good idea to give them motivation to stay more on top of their tire suppliers (as if this wasn't enough).
Granted F1 would get dinged anyway for compromising on its purist image and Ferrari would complain, but the fallout would be much less than the path they chose. Someone said this will be forgotten at the next drop of the flag. No way. Not in Indy and the rest of the US anyway. Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes and Renault will not be forgetting this. I believe F1 imploded on Sunday.
Andrew Longman
06-21-05, 11:03 AM
Bottom line is:
On Sunday, Bridgestone won, Michelin lost.
End of story.
True, Bridgestone won, but that's not really the story.
How many of the 120,000 fans there paid a cent to see Bridgestone compete? How many are dying to see if they can kick Dunlops @ss next? How many Michelin fans can't wait for a rematch at France? Or Indy next year?
Dirty Sanchez
06-21-05, 11:39 AM
the fact you believe a flagship program of a major international commercial firm would get it so wrong w/o major unforseable problems thrown in the way is ultimate :gomer: as well
Mosley's paid to manage, and he failed completely. Blame comes last, solutions and execution of those solutions comes first. That is the chief administrator's charge, and he failed in a most pathetic manner.thanks for telling me what I believe :rolleyes:
don't be naive. there is more to the michelin teams' refusal to race than just this tire controversy. in my view, the FIA made reasonable attempts at getting the race in. it is documented. the gpwc teams thought they could throw their weight around :gomer: reminiscent of some of the CART powerplays by the manufacturers honestly. I'm glad it went over like a lead balloon... and I will be the first one :rofl: if they lose the driver or manufacturer's championship by less than 10/18 points, respectively.
ilferrari
06-21-05, 12:01 PM
Max Mosley:
"It seems the Michelin teams failed to bring a back-up tyre as usual with them to Indianapolis. The FIA offered them options which would have allowed them to compete safely within the limitations of their tyres. For some reason they chose not to accept those options."
Those options including "racing at reduced speed through turn 13". Things like this make me question Mosley's sanity.
The chicane solution was the right compromise. How is it "grossly unfair and unsporting" to the Bridgestone runners? Are they running on a different course?
Anything would have been better than what they decided. They should have decided on a penalty for Michelin or even their runners on Monday morning.
ilferrari
06-21-05, 12:02 PM
off topic: More Mosley insanity:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4102566.stm
Methanolandbrats
06-21-05, 12:10 PM
Sounds like he's trying build a very expensive Formula Ford.
I agree with him on one thing, F1 is divorced from reality. That's what makes it cool :D
Dirty Sanchez
06-21-05, 12:13 PM
The chicane solution was the right compromise. How is it "grossly unfair and unsporting" to the Bridgestone runners?because they came prepared to race.
you cleverly ommitted the FIA suggestion of allowing Michelin teams to pit repeatedly for new tires... eliminating any need to run turn 13 slower.
M teams to pay for tix refunds?
http://speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/17736/
And here's a preliminary list of the charges against the teams for the 6/29 meeting:
http://speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/17731/
-Kevin
cameraman
06-21-05, 01:27 PM
you cleverly ommitted the FIA suggestion of allowing Michelin teams to pit repeatedly for new tires... eliminating any need to run turn 13 slower.
How often? What is the mean time to failure of those tires?
Run how much slower? At what speed to the tires begin to encur damage?
Michelin did not have a clue as to the answers to those questions. You expect the drivers to go out during a race as guinea pigs to determine exactly when the tire is going fail and spin them into the wall?
Those suggestions were a recipe to get somebody killed.
Dirty Sanchez
06-21-05, 01:32 PM
buzzzzz... wrong. michelin had the data. they ran for two days before the race and had data on all 7 of their teams. it was reported that they could run in the neighborhood of 10 laps before seeing significant wear. I don't care if the teams have to do a 25-stop strategy in order to run within the limits of their tires... they could do it and not sacrifice any speed through the banked turn. and they could do so safely. Ralf would not have crashed if they ran proper tire pressure... I've heard that they were running insanely low pressures in order to maximize mechanical grip on the inflield section. they did so irresponsibly, imo. see any number of similar examples in Nascar in recent years.
stop whinging about the FIA... they do not make s***** tires.
coolhand
06-21-05, 03:28 PM
Bottom line is:
On Sunday, Bridgestone won, Michelin lost.
End of story.
it was like the tortois and the Hare
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