Anyone Want to Discuss Champ Cars on Ovals?

[racer2c]

I know we have awhile before the first oval, I thought we'd lay a few things out on the table (just in case Chris is looking in).


While reminiscing in another thread about the ChampCars at Nazareth, it made me think of one of the reasons that I do enjoy the ovals. Now, I know I may be in the minority on this issue, in that I hope that CART will retain some ovals on the schedule. I particularly enjoy the one milers. The reason momentum racing bothers me so much is this, in a race where the driver has the throttle control with overhead to accelerate and enough power to get back quick if he needs to lift (or even brake) helps to create an energy and frantic action when the checkered are looming.

Anyone who has been at a CART one mile race knows what I am talking about. With ten laps to go, you can 'feel' the top runners start going in deeper and getting back on it sooner. It's intensity. An intensity that is dramatically missing from the momentum series. I've actually never read anyone mention this before, but it something that I always think about when I'm at the one milers, or watching them on TV.

I've seen comments on boards over the last few years where people claim "the IRL has the better oval package and CART is suited to road courses". I beg to differ. Champ Cars could actually be better on road courses than they are, we all know that. They are a few hundred pound too heavy, steel rotors etc. So do they keep that configuration to justify a couple of ovals? If the racing is awesome like it was awhile back, I'm for it.

Super speedways. We've all said it before, we might as well say it again, especially since we know CART listens to its fans (unlike other series), write the Hanford to the history books or get off the big tracks all together. Nuff said.

I'm a bit concerned with the CWS becoming an all road course series. It seems to me as if the sports car fans look to the ALMS as the premier road racers (?) and I'd hate for CART to get into a battle along those lines. I've been a fan of CART because of the diversity of the circuits. Not because I'm a road racer first or an oval fan. There's history in the diversity and I want CART to keep it.

[FortyOneFord]

I'd love for CWS to keep ovals. 3 to 4 is perfect, and my choices would be Milwaukee, Fontana, Lausitz and Pheonix.

I know it's cliche, but I really do like the diversity, and something about these 800hp beasts screaming around an oval at 200+ mph is just really awesome.

But the old days are past. The oval market is now too saturated, and the business models are changing. I hope we get to keep a few, because CWS is the best at it; but things change and the loss of ovals might be one of the first major changes we see.

So, I won't worry about it, and instead see them while I can.

[cart7]

I like the short tracks and especially tracks like Gateway, Naz, Phoenix where it's more than just accelerate, turn left. I also enjoyed the years the 500 mile triple crown was around. Those days are long over with though.

[WickerBill]

I don't enjoy "foot in it all the way" ovals like Fontana, as breathtaking as they are, because there's very little racing involved. Gil says it's a "lottery".

But I do like ovals. I also would vote for the "driving" ovals; Gateway, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Loudon, Homestead. However, we all know that Homestead and Gateway can't draw flies, and Phoenix and Loudon have been corrupted, possibly, beyond repair.

My "perfect mix" of ovals to roads to streets would be (assuming a current 19 race schedule) would be five ovals, seven roads, seven streets.

Perfect never happens though.

[pchall]

When this whole CART thing started some of my racing acquaintances complained that CART dates were being wasted a Milwaukee and Phoenix. They thought it was a shame that a championship could be decided on a mile oval instead of a road course.

Right now I just wish the rat bastards who control the tracks would just let CART run on the few remaining real ovals in the US. They are kind of cool.

Ironically, now the two best new ovals for formula cars are in England and Germany.

[Railbird]

count me as a fan of diversity.

While I was growing up in Indy I could watch the same championship drivers compete on a speedway, a road course and a dirt mile all within a few miles of my house.

Diversity has always been CART's strong point in my eyes.

However

I was suprised when Pook spoke of his commitment to ovals in this day and age. The extra aero equipment alone makes it an expensive proposition and the new spec chassis will have to be designed with oval safety in mind.

Also

I'm almost inclined to believe Mark C's rantings about Nascar sucking up all the oval interest in America.

[nrc]

I want to see Champ cars continue to race on a variety of courses. That has always been an important part of the attraction for me.

The problem with CART's oval package was that they ran out of ways to regulate engine power when they reached the practical limit of turbo boost adjustments. That left aerodynamic tinkering as their only option for controlling speeds on ovals and that ruined their racing on ovals.

If CART's team owners had been willing to forget about Indy and create a new engine formula that problem could have been solved years ago.

Fortunately that problem can be solved now that CART controls the engine package. But years of the split, bad racing and bad promotion have left CART's oval events in trouble.

CART and their oval promoters have to overcome two big problems with oval events. The first is that oval race fans tend to show up for the race, watch and go home. So the promoter has to make money on race day alone. Add to that the fact that it's difficult to create an "event" at an oval when you've got people coming in just an hour or so before the race to sit in half full (or worse) stands and then leaving right after the race.

I think that's why CART has chosen to try a night oval race. They're hoping to restore the event feel again. Of course it can't hurt that empty seats may not be so obvious under the lights, either.

If it works at Milwaukee CART should take the opportunity to try to get back into Phoenix for a night event there. Phoenix is clamering for another IRL date and by offering up a CART date CART could either force the IRL's hand or pick up a good market for themselves.

[RARules]

Originally posted by Railbird
I was suprised when Pook spoke of his commitment to ovals in this day and age. The extra aero equipment alone makes it an expensive proposition and the new spec chassis will have to be designed with oval safety in mind.

Where's ChrisB and 1.5L high-boost turbos when we need them? I know it's been discussed a thousand times (well, maybe only 20-100), but a reasonable-displacement high-boost turbo allows CART to dial the boost levels to control HP and therefore oval speeds.

Sounds like a good plan to me. Larger displacement NA engines don't provide for this advantage. A ricer formula has a lot of advantages...

[Napoleon]

Anouther vote for diversity.

[ChrisB]

dial the boost levels to control HP and therefore oval speeds

Well, if they go to a V10, hopefully they'll build the engine toward making 750hp for road races, but also keep in mind using some kind of inlet restrictor to bring the power down to 700hp for the ovals... to keep the 750/700hp thing they're doing now with the XFE.

I wouldn't put a lot of faith in CART running anymore ISC ovals, including Fontana for very much longer... not as long as the BY400 exists and team Penske runs in the IRL with Roger or Greg Penske sitting on the ISC board. CART will need to look outside of ISC to run ovals.

As long as CART can tailor the power for ovals vs roads, I'm generally in favor of diveristy. But if the market for the ovals gets any worse than it is now, and/or IMS makes a play for CART's road events with undercutting sanction fees and fendered Indycars, then maybe it might be prudent to market themselves as "NA's premier road-racing series" and go even harder after the road-race market than playing the field with "diversity".

[tomahawk]

Personally, I've been hoping for Bristol. Tell me that wouldn't be exciting!

:tomahawk

[RTKar]

Originally posted by pchall


Ironically, now the two best new ovals for formula cars are in England and Germany.


...don't forget Rio, I thought it was an incredibly interesting circuit..... Having grown up attending races at Milwaukee I came to enjoy and appreciate ovals. It's really only since the last several years when CART specs out grew (short) ovals that they became boring follow the leader affairs. I remember the days of Milwaukee being a three groove track with guys like Robbie Gordon making comments about inching his way up the track on the outside over the course of the race to try to sweep off the marbles so he could pass on the outside. Sitting their watching those races from the early 90's was like being in a pin ball game, so much action going on all around the track it was hard to keep an eye on everything(remember Mansell at Loudon?). Developing a spec that can once again race on ovals and don't need the contrived hanford racing on large tracks will do alot to bring interest back to CART oval racing. Another point I see is the expectation due to NASCAR and the irl, that EVERY race needs to be a barn burner with multiple cars on the lead lap and a close split second finish. It seems to me that sentiment is creaping into CART which does not sit well with me. Races need to develop naturally, as a seasoned racefan one learns the drama and excitement isn't only about who wins but about races deeper in the pack, who finishes well with lesser equipment. As far as CART goes, diversity of circuits is needed as selling point for the series. With the dumbing down of NASCAR and the irl, CART needs to distinquish itself from other series both by it's circuits, it's caliber of drivers, and it's speed relative to the irl.

[Ziggy]

I enjoy ovals, very much. The only road course's that I will pay to attend on a seasonal basis, year after year would be and are Mid Ohio (see note)Road America and Cleveland. The Hanford device really killed the big oval tracks, while the smaller ovals were killed by stupid wing regulations. St. Louis and Milwaukee staged some great races. The Mile is one of historical significance for Me. They did need to do something about the horsepower issues on the ovals. Another point of contention is if the cars are going to run on ovals, they have to be built to crash on ovals. This makes the cars a bit overweight on the roadcourses in comparison to F1 machinery. Its a problem for many, who believe that RoadRacing is the be all and end all. I enjoy Road Racing just as much as the next guy. Formula One is the pinnacle of that discipline of the sport. Small wonder the past CART champs have gone on to compete in this arena.

Mid Ohio is too narrow to really have a race on. If not for the tremendous atmosphere, and the ease of getting there from a Midwest home, I would not bother. They had better figure it out, like a smaller car. They need a V10 like they need Andrew Craig back calling the shots. When you don't have much going for you on the manufacture side of things, they better be damn sure of Ford's wishes. I don't really think MG and Mr. Hart will take that bait again........

Ziggy

PS - You guys crack me up with all the talk of new engines. How healthy do you think this sport really is??? Did you see the sidepods from St Pete??? I think it much more important to see through this season and next, and a way to fix what they have, than to speculate on 2005. I hate to break it to you, but 2005 is but a pipe dream at this point.

[oddlycalm]

If CART gets to the proper equipment package for ovals, and if a couple promoters that can do the job are on board, then I would love to see the ovals continue.

As has already been aptly pointed out, an oval race with the right package can be exciting racing. Otherwise, can the ovals and evolve the equipment package accordingly.

On the subject of ovals, we lost our dirt 1/2 mile so yet another uneeded cineplex can be built in an area of town where nobody lives, so no more WOO for us. I'd like to have 10 minutes alone in a room with the fools responsible for this brain fart.

oc

[Gurneyflap]

We can stand one 500 mile race at a foot to the floor track. ONE! Other ovals, with a lift or two, from 1.0-1.25mi. in length would be fine. Ovals, streets and roads, an airport or two...But JUST SAY NO to a "City Racing League"! (See my new topic)