View Full Version : What if a 3rd party union of teams forced unificiation?
Famous racing boycotts:
1969: Richard Petty leads a bunch of major NASCAR teams to boycott the new Talladega track because they don't think the tires will hold up.
1971: Don Garlits leads a bunch of teams to run a rival event at Tulsa OK, opposite the US Nationals.
1978: CART. Major Champ/Indy teams form their own "union". They don't actually boycott any any USAC races until Pocono '81, in which Silver Crown cars had to be used as field fillers.
1996: US500. Most CART regulars band together and run their own 500-miler opposite Indy.
2005: 2/3 of F1 grid... many of whom are part of GPWC formation... pull off the track in unison at USGP.
History keeps repeating itself. Sometimes they work out their differences, sometimes they don't.
Here we are in 2005, and what do IRL and CCWS have in common? They're both essentially privately owned "portfolios" of a series of races. IRL is mostly oval, CCWS is mostly road racing. (They only races that are actually owned outright are Indy500 and LBGP).
Lotsa folks feel that ONE SERIES would be best. Up until now, most suspect it would occur by one series grinding down the other. But something new has been talked about lately... that maybe the major sponsors who support the series would try to force the 2 series together.
Here's a twist.. perhaps history would repeat yet again and the biggest (and mid-sized) teams of the IRL and CCWS would stand together with the threat of boycott to BOTH sides! Form a union... maybe they'd even call it "Indy Car Championship Teams" :) Then they'd say to KK and TG:
"Mr George, pick your 10 best ovals.. get a good TV and sponsor package... and we'll show up for those."
"Mr Kalkhoven, pick your 10 best road races.. get a good TV and sponsor package... and we'll show up for those."
...and then perhaps: "WE will have our own independent championship" and maybe even "WE will have the final say over the specs of the cars, because WE are ultimately the ones who must buy and race them." Of course, they would be reasonable and work with both sides, but they could hold the threat of boycott to either side to force an issue.
To put it simply... I'm not talking about TG "unifying" with KK as previously understood... I'm talking about a NEW third party arising (from the teams) and starting their own independent championship with TG and KK essentially as promoters of races within the new third party championship.
Would history repeat itself?
DagoFast
06-26-05, 05:08 PM
Dude, quit bogarting that doob. :D
Napoleon
06-26-05, 06:56 PM
(They only races that are actually owned outright are Indy500 and LBGP).
and Cleveland
Penske and NH are the only teams that have any appreciable power and NH are getting long in the tooth. TV ratings and MFG support are what will determine this battle.
fourrunner
06-26-05, 08:17 PM
Chris .... I'm figuring the only ones that will be staging a revolt will be IRL Teams .... I think the Champ Car Teams are Loyal & Committed to Kevin, Gerry, and Paul G .... plus that's 3 teams right there ... PLN has already stated his case & I don't think he's one to go back on his convictions, and after hearing Haas' involvement in saving KK's life, I think he's right where he want's to be now, plus he paid a HEAVY price for his vain glorious sojurn at Indy this year ... Moving down the line, I don't here much grumbling .. these are 'Non Oval" guys, and probably satisfied with things ... Plus engines are secured ... Chassis about to change ... venues are expanding and drawing well ... There's nothing really that the other side can offer ... They're the ones who would benefit from a re unification, but they're in denial
The IRL has Danica, but that will probably fizzle as she stagnates, and the press moves on to something "cheezier" than comparing wannabe's to greatness like Tiger Woods ... This fiasco is an insult to thinking people !
With Toyota pulling out, and Honda saying they won't stay without competition, and the Free Money to organize Mega Teams slowly disappearing, I'm figuring Either Penske is going to support Half the Teams with FREE Ilmors, or those teams are heading to NASCAR , but I doubt NASCAR will take them if they're not there already!
I think Champ Car has the edge... and Kevin has said he's around for the long haul!!!
TorontoWorker
06-27-05, 09:16 AM
"...and after hearing Haas' involvement in saving KK's life,"
Huh? Ok, I missed this, what happened? Are we talking about his ski injury - I thought that was just a broken shoulder?
fourrunner
06-27-05, 09:39 AM
"...and after hearing Haas' involvement in saving KK's life,"
Huh? Ok, I missed this, what happened? Are we talking about his ski injury - I thought that was just a broken shoulder?
Carl Haas, and Dan? Petit his partner in PKV convinced Kevin to go to the Mao Clinic to investigate his Shoulder, which was NOT healing, and was causing consistent pain .. He was on Pain Killers 24/7 ... They found out that his shoulder was infected and poisoning his system, caused by all the metal to repair the damage ... Kevin was resistant, but Carl & Dan called him persistantly to make sure he kept his appointment ... Doctors told him that if he hadn't come in, he could have been dead in 6 weeks ... Carl evidently was particularly persuasive on Kevin ! Thankfully so!
Lesson .....Watch Snowboarders when Skiing!
The only chance for any form of unification is for the suppliers (Honda, Toyota, Bridgestone, etc.) to insist upon it, even then I doubt it would happen. That would require the suppliers to put the well-being of the sport before short- term self interest, and we all know how much of that there is in open wheel nowadays.
indyfan31
06-27-05, 10:58 AM
Lesson .....Watch Snowboarders when Skiing!
That's why I ski with the ski poles pointing "out".
Insomniac
06-27-05, 11:29 AM
True reunification will only happen if TG wants it to happen. He can keep starting new series that revolve around his track as many times as he needs.
stroker
06-27-05, 12:34 PM
Chris, we never really had unification. We had "accommodation" by the Hulman/George group to run CART under similar rules.
As far as I'm concerned, we had a few years of great fun where we had the Indy 500 and great road racing. Now we've got street racing instead of road racing and no superspeedways. The .1RL is never going to be a roadracing series, but CC might be again once it gets back on its financial feet. More people saying "It's MY ball and I'm taking it with me!" are not going to solve any problems.
What is clear (at least to me) is that F1 is now so overrun with lawyers and contractual commitments that they can no longer put the interest of the fans ahead of their own. Until they demonstrate otherwise, the Amigos appear to place value on the fan base, and they're "dancin' with who brung 'em".
Any teams threatening to leave CC should be told "Thanks for your participation, just let us know if you'd like to come back. Enjoy the .1RL and make sure your insurance is paid up."
Winston Wolfe
06-27-05, 03:30 PM
True reunification will only happen if TG wants it to happen. He can keep starting new series that revolve around his track as many times as he needs.
BINGO.
Anyone who talks about re-unification outside of the month of May has not been following OW racing in the US for the last 10 years.
TG believes he has all of the marbles for this game, and cannot be trusted.
CCWS needs to forge its own road, exclusive of participation in the IRL500. Period.
DjDrOmusic
06-27-05, 05:13 PM
With all due respect ChrisB....I know a really good therapist that helped me through just this same problem! ;) :D
JLMannin
06-27-05, 06:15 PM
Please, no more unification threads until TG has passed on. It just isn't going to happen untile he is dead or no longer in control of the speedway.
Insomniac
06-27-05, 06:33 PM
Just go on your path until TG approaches you (CCWS). And tell everyone else to quit bothering you unless they come back with TG in agreement with whatever they want to do, including Mario Andretti.
Sorry to take a while getting back to this. One thing that's hard to get away from is the thinking that "party A" must unify with "party B". Instead, this new scenario is more like the stuff that happened in the Senate last month when John McCain led a group (IIRC) called the "moderate 7" which arose out of both parties and brokered a deal on those judges. In essence a new "party C" arises out of parties A & B and forces the issue.
Instead of IRL (party A) reconciling directly with CCWS(party B) as in previous thinking, a group of team owners (party C) arise from both sides, form a coalition, and dictate their terms to each side using their newfound majority power of boycott.
In the past, people said what does CCWS bring to the table that IRL would want? (or vice versa). In this scenario, the question is.. what does the coalition of teams bring to the table that IRL or CCWS would want? The answer is the power to show up or not show up on the grid.
Right now Rahal, Andretti, Ganassi, & Penske have the power to threaten to pull 9 or so cars into the pits after a pace lap. Or opening lap.
Personally, I'd like to see a good chunk of all the teams create an independent organization named something like "Indy Car Championship Teams" (Yes, the judge ruled in '96 that they can use "Indy Car" generically with the space in between) with their own Championship trophy which will draw from an equal number of races in the IRL and CCWS, thus relegating TG and KK to promoter status. The teams should also be the ones to dictate the final car specs, using their power of boycott if either side doesn't agree. (Though I'd hope all three sides would provide input).
I think a 50/50 oval-road mix might probably be best to differentiate a new Indy Car Championship from F1 and Nascar. Rolling starts on ovals and standing starts on roads would certainly place a premium on skills!
(and bring it all to Pocono too!)
DagoFast
06-28-05, 08:51 PM
No offense Chris, but your scenario is more appropriate for what is happening in F1 right now, and this discussion perhaps belongs there. JMHO.
Winston Wolfe
06-28-05, 08:56 PM
Sorry to take a while getting back to this. One thing that's hard to get away from is the thinking that "party A" must unify with "party B". Instead, this new scenario is more like the stuff that happened in the Senate last month when John McCain led a group (IIRC) called the "moderate 7" which arose out of both parties and brokered a deal on those judges. In essence a new "party C" arises out of parties A & B and forces the issue.
Instead of IRL (party A) reconciling directly with CCWS(party B) as in previous thinking, a group of team owners (party C) arise from both sides, form a coalition, and dictate their terms to each side using their newfound majority power of boycott.
In the past, people said what does CCWS bring to the table that IRL would want? (or vice versa). In this scenario, the question is.. what does the coalition of teams bring to the table that IRL or CCWS would want? The answer is the power to show up or not show up on the grid.
Right now Rahal, Andretti, Ganassi, & Penske have the power to threaten to pull 9 or so cars into the pits after a pace lap. Or opening lap.
Personally, I'd like to see a good chunk of all the teams create an independent organization named something like "Indy Car Championship Teams" (Yes, the judge ruled in '96 that they can use "Indy Car" generically with the space in between) with their own Championship trophy which will draw from an equal number of races in the IRL and CCWS, thus relegating TG and KK to promoter status. The teams should also be the ones to dictate the final car specs, using their power of boycott if either side doesn't agree. (Though I'd hope all three sides would provide input).
I think a 50/50 oval-road mix might probably be best to differentiate a new Indy Car Championship from F1 and Nascar. Rolling starts on ovals and standing starts on roads would certainly place a premium on skills!
(and bring it all to Pocono too!)
Chris, while I appreciate your enthusiasm and support for the ideas presented here, I believe that WAY too much water has passed under the "Open Wheel Split" Bridge in the last 10 years.
Too many of the same players who first badmouthed TG (Pimpski, Rahole, Gasnassti, et al) are now in bed with him, preparing to move on the next one, once the TG den is over run with rats.
OW in North America aint on very steady ground right now, and the last thing CCWS and it owners need to do is have any joint ventures with TG.
A third party union is always a possibility, but I really feel as though the original divisions are still working - albeit in different avenues. In the current deal, it's not like Gentilozzi and Foyt are going band together in a common cause. Forsythe, Kalkhoven and Penske? Well, that's another matter.
C'mon. Within a few months K&F buy Cosworth while Penske buys into Ilmor? These deals take a long time to do.
fourrunner
06-28-05, 09:09 PM
I would be Shocked & Disappointed if ANY Champ Car Team pulled a boycott on Kevin & Company, after all the Money they risked Buying & SAVING this series for the Teams & the Fans of Champ Car Racing !
Haas is the only one who broke ranks this year, and he paid dearly for it!
If Rahal, Gannassi & their ilk want to unify , then just come back over to Champ Car. Easy remedy, after all If they boycotted they want to get together anyway ... Just Leave Tony George Behind
Trust me ... EVEN if he agreed to a 50/50 split in leadership ... He would make trouble after a short "truce" ... He isn't worth it !
Insomniac
06-28-05, 11:46 PM
Sorry to take a while getting back to this. One thing that's hard to get away from is the thinking that "party A" must unify with "party B". Instead, this new scenario is more like the stuff that happened in the Senate last month when John McCain led a group (IIRC) called the "moderate 7" which arose out of both parties and brokered a deal on those judges. In essence a new "party C" arises out of parties A & B and forces the issue.
Instead of IRL (party A) reconciling directly with CCWS(party B) as in previous thinking, a group of team owners (party C) arise from both sides, form a coalition, and dictate their terms to each side using their newfound majority power of boycott.
In the past, people said what does CCWS bring to the table that IRL would want? (or vice versa). In this scenario, the question is.. what does the coalition of teams bring to the table that IRL or CCWS would want? The answer is the power to show up or not show up on the grid.
Right now Rahal, Andretti, Ganassi, & Penske have the power to threaten to pull 9 or so cars into the pits after a pace lap. Or opening lap.
Personally, I'd like to see a good chunk of all the teams create an independent organization named something like "Indy Car Championship Teams" (Yes, the judge ruled in '96 that they can use "Indy Car" generically with the space in between) with their own Championship trophy which will draw from an equal number of races in the IRL and CCWS, thus relegating TG and KK to promoter status. The teams should also be the ones to dictate the final car specs, using their power of boycott if either side doesn't agree. (Though I'd hope all three sides would provide input).
I think a 50/50 oval-road mix might probably be best to differentiate a new Indy Car Championship from F1 and Nascar. Rolling starts on ovals and standing starts on roads would certainly place a premium on skills!
(and bring it all to Pocono too!)
Again, I don't see TG letting anyone dictate to him what to do. He will say good riddance, start the OWRL and do this all over again. The teams won';t be at Indy and they'll have ChampCar to run around in until Indyitis strikes again and they jump ship to the OWRL. The impedement to this entire thing is TG. Until he decides he wants the war to end, it won't.
oddlycalm
06-29-05, 01:22 AM
It would take a total boycott of Indy by the teams and equipment suppliers, which ain't gonna happen. Anything less and TG would wiggle out of the corner. He's just as stubborn as he is stupid and he had zero regard for the fans, the city his track is in, the drivers or the teams, so even if he did capitulate he would be working overtime to queer the deal as quickly as possible. Indy is dead for us.
Edit- RA and MO on the other hand should be priorities for CCWS. They matter in ways that are tangible and intangible to CCWS, and the permanent loss of them will reduce the number of core fans that the three amigos counted as the single most valuable asset CART had.
oc
Insomniac
06-29-05, 09:47 AM
Edit- RA and MO on the other hand should be priorities for CCWS. They matter in ways that are tangible and intangible to CCWS, and the permanent loss of them will reduce the number of core fans that the three amigos counted as the single most valuable asset CART had.
Doesn't it have to be a two way street? The tracks have to actually want them there too. I think it's made clear that they really don't since the IRL didn't seize the opportunity now that they are road racing.
Racing Truth
06-29-05, 04:32 PM
A third party union is always a possibility, but I really feel as though the original divisions are still working - albeit in different avenues. In the current deal, it's not like Gentilozzi and Foyt are going band together in a common cause. Forsythe, Kalkhoven and Penske? Well, that's another matter.
C'mon. Within a few months K&F buy Cosworth while Penske buys into Ilmor? These deals take a long time to do.
True. I've been impatient too, but thinking, if something were to happen, that it would be quick was not realistic.
Also, the Grand-Am deal appears off the table, so let me say this: Penske can dictate what happens here. If he's OK w/ supplying spec Illmor's, then no merge. If he demands a merge...
Rocketdoc
06-29-05, 08:36 PM
Famous racing boycotts:
1969: Richard Petty leads a bunch of major NASCAR teams to boycott the new Talladega track because they don't think the tires will hold up.
1971: Don Garlits leads a bunch of teams to run a rival event at Tulsa OK, opposite the US Nationals.
1978: CART. Major Champ/Indy teams form their own "union". They don't actually boycott any any USAC races until Pocono '81, in which Silver Crown cars had to be used as field fillers.
1996: US500. Most CART regulars band together and run their own 500-miler opposite Indy.
2005: 2/3 of F1 grid... many of whom are part of GPWC formation... pull off the track in unison at USGP.
History keeps repeating itself. Sometimes they work out their differences, sometimes they don't.
Here we are in 2005, and what do IRL and CCWS have in common? They're both essentially privately owned "portfolios" of a series of races. IRL is mostly oval, CCWS is mostly road racing. (They only races that are actually owned outright are Indy500 and LBGP).
Lotsa folks feel that ONE SERIES would be best. Up until now, most suspect it would occur by one series grinding down the other. But something new has been talked about lately... that maybe the major sponsors who support the series would try to force the 2 series together.
Here's a twist.. perhaps history would repeat yet again and the biggest (and mid-sized) teams of the IRL and CCWS would stand together with the threat of boycott to BOTH sides! Form a union... maybe they'd even call it "Indy Car Championship Teams" :) Then they'd say to KK and TG:
"Mr George, pick your 10 best ovals.. get a good TV and sponsor package... and we'll show up for those."
"Mr Kalkhoven, pick your 10 best road races.. get a good TV and sponsor package... and we'll show up for those."
...and then perhaps: "WE will have our own independent championship" and maybe even "WE will have the final say over the specs of the cars, because WE are ultimately the ones who must buy and race them." Of course, they would be reasonable and work with both sides, but they could hold the threat of boycott to either side to force an issue.
To put it simply... I'm not talking about TG "unifying" with KK as previously understood... I'm talking about a NEW third party arising (from the teams) and starting their own independent championship with TG and KK essentially as promoters of races within the new third party championship.
Would history repeat itself?
Right after I learn to herd cats....
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