View Full Version : New engines/cars for Atlantics
From a very reliable source at Cleveland: There are two companies interested in replacing Toyota, both have ties to chassis mfgrs. that are also interested. As far as MarkC's rumor about seven chassis mfgrs.... "I swear, he has to just make this crap up."
FCYTravis
06-27-05, 11:22 PM
Anyone who believes anything that MarkC makes up deserves what he gets.
coolhand
06-27-05, 11:44 PM
i cannot name 7 chasis mfcs.
Sean O'Gorman
06-27-05, 11:55 PM
Lola, Dallara, Panoz, Swift, Riley, and that is about it. Most of those are pretty unlikely, I'm sure.
coolhand
06-28-05, 12:04 AM
Lola, Dallara, Panoz, Swift, Riley, and that is about it. Most of those are pretty unlikely, I'm sure.
dome, courage all unlikely
How about Ralt? Is Van Deiman considered a G-Force? Tatuus?
Sean O'Gorman
06-28-05, 12:08 AM
Van Diemen is also owned by Panoz.
coolhand
06-28-05, 12:23 AM
we a digging deep to find the MAGNIFICENT SEVEN MarkC is talking about :laugh:
Tatuus, Courage.
do these people work out of their garage somewhere?
extramundane
06-28-05, 12:48 AM
Is Van Deiman considered a G-Force?
I don't think anything's considered a G-Force anymore. At any rate, I believe Panoz is keeping Van Dieman quite separate from the Panoz chassis group.
coolhand
06-28-05, 12:54 AM
somone on another board said they tlaked to the lady in charge of Atlantics and she said the new formual will have more HP! :thumbup:
devilmaster
06-28-05, 01:14 AM
Hopefully, the 2 biggest things that a new chassis/engine will do:
1) more HP - should be in the 350-400 range, imo
2) it should be cheaper.
JT can delve into it better than I can.....
FCYTravis
06-28-05, 01:57 AM
At any rate, I believe Panoz is keeping Van Dieman quite separate from the Panoz chassis group.
Was.
Napoleon
06-28-05, 05:18 AM
somone on another board said they tlaked to the lady in charge of Atlantics and she said the new formual will have more HP! :thumbup:
Vickie Connors (sp?) is that lady and she also said that at the Cleveland fan forum.
SpeedQueen
06-28-05, 09:27 AM
Vickie Connors (sp?) is that lady and she also said that at the Cleveland fan forum.
Vicki O'Connor ;)
I believe Ralt has called it a day.
Tatuus makes all Formula Renault chassis. Courage makes both P1 and P2 chassis for Le Mans. Neither are woodshop operations.
I hope Dallara or Panoz get the contract just to piss off everyone who can't see beyond their supply of irl cars.
coolhand
06-28-05, 01:46 PM
so the announcment is going to be next week?
cameraman
06-28-05, 02:06 PM
I hope Dallara or Panoz get the contract just to piss off everyone who can't see beyond their supply of irl cars. Especially if they have Honda engines in them... :eek:
Especially if they have Honda engines in them... :eek:
http://www.fota.co.uk/system/_showimg.php?key=838&size=3
Hopefully, the 2 biggest things that a new chassis/engine will do:
1) more HP - should be in the 350-400 range, imo
2) it should be cheaper.
JT can delve into it better than I can.....
Yoda proposed a 450HP V8 back in 2000 for the next gen car, I think it will come in around 350+.
The spec isn't bad, but maybe open it up to a couple of manu's as opposed to making 'kingHiro and Haas fat and happy. And bring the damn costs back down to reality. Thirty-plus year old tech ain't worth $32 large a pop guys. Sorry.
One other problem tho'. You almost have to homogulate a similar formula into SCCA or else you end up with a bastard spec and 8 car grids. Which is still two more than F1 can muster in the US, so I guess it ain't all bad. :w00t:
:D
Yoda proposed a 450HP V8 back in 2000 for the next gen car, I think it will come in around 350+.
The spec isn't bad, but maybe open it up to a couple of manu's as opposed to making 'kingHiro and Haas fat and happy. And bring the damn costs back down to reality. Thirty-plus year old tech ain't worth $32 large a pop guys. Sorry.
One other problem tho'. You almost have to homogulate a similar formula into SCCA or else you end up with a bastard spec and 8 car grids. Which is still two more than F1 can muster in the US, so I guess it ain't all bad. :w00t:
:D
I think they ought to adopt the Renault V6 spec. Half the price, twice the hp and a fleet of cars out there not being used.
coolhand
06-28-05, 03:22 PM
the renault V6 spec engine lasts all season and produces 400hp.
the costs should be under 500k a season for atlantics
also, they should ban carbon wings, the cost verse performance for them is not worth it at that level.
the renault V6 spec engine lasts all season and produces 400hp.
the costs should be under 500k a season for atlantics
also, they should ban carbon wings, the cost verse performance for them is not worth it at that level.
Renault V6 can be run for around $400k.
Carbon wings on a development car is ridiculous. A relic of the early to mid 90's.
Racing Truth
06-28-05, 03:30 PM
From a very reliable source at Cleveland: There are two companies interested in replacing Toyota, both have ties to chassis mfgrs. that are also interested. As far as MarkC's rumor about seven chassis mfgrs.... "I swear, he has to just make this crap up."
:laugh: :laugh: In other news, the War of 1812 started in 1812, though MarkC swears it started in 1810.
Racing Truth
06-28-05, 03:32 PM
In terms of engines, this could be what Honda and KK discussed. We'll see.
Renault V6 can be run for around $400k.
Carbon wings on a development car is ridiculous. A relic of the early to mid 90's.
I'd be all for a spec like that, and for 400K you could squeeze three cars out of a one car Lynx budget. Maybe even score some Nissan support too.
devilmaster
06-28-05, 05:12 PM
Yoda proposed a 450HP V8 back in 2000 for the next gen car, I think it will come in around 350+.
The spec isn't bad, but maybe open it up to a couple of manu's as opposed to making 'kingHiro and Haas fat and happy. And bring the damn costs back down to reality. Thirty-plus year old tech ain't worth $32 large a pop guys. Sorry.
One other problem tho'. You almost have to homogulate a similar formula into SCCA or else you end up with a bastard spec and 8 car grids. Which is still two more than F1 can muster in the US, so I guess it ain't all bad. :w00t:
:D
That's it?!?!?!?!? You ranted on and on into my ear for an hour at T.O. and that above is all you typed???? ;) :p
That's it?!?!?!?!? You ranted on and on into my ear for an hour at T.O. and that above is all you typed???? ;) :p
I have carpal tunnel. Deal with it. :p
:D
Dr. Corkski
06-29-05, 12:36 AM
I'd be all for a spec like that, and for 400K you could squeeze three cars out of a one car Lynx budget. Maybe even score some Nissan support too.RJS Motorsport 3-car super team. :gomer:
RJS Motorsport 3-car super team. :gomer:
Aw man.....feel the love. :rofl:
Steve99
06-29-05, 02:24 PM
Maybe it will be a Falcon chassis with a Kia engine? :rofl:
Maybe it will be a Falcon chassis with a Kia engine? :rofl:
Most of the time I think that April Phewl's press release about the Kia 3.5NA for CART was much more real than the Falcon chassis ever was in the IRL. Just another group of suckers taken in by the Vision™.
Mark521
07-30-05, 02:51 PM
Just announced:
Cosworth Engine (300hp, 2.3 litre, 4 cylinder)
http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=9442
$2MM toward CC seat for the next Atlantic Champ
http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=9443
Even with the advanced technology generated through Swift and Cosworth with the new series competition package, total operating costs for a full-season entry are expected to be a reasonable $500-600,000 per team in 2006.
According to the numbers I've heard, that would roughly cut the cost of a full-season effort in half. Good deal!
cameraman
07-30-05, 05:54 PM
The Cosworth D-power Kit 3 for the 2.3 l Duratech is supposed to yield 300 hp @ 7600 rpm.
Cosworth D-Power Graph (http://www.cosworth.com/content.php?pageid=3&contentid=59)
So, I assume this will be a professional version of the Kit-3?
But wouldn't Cosworth rather have someone elses name and CASH for that effort...or does KK see this as the big ad for a hugely expanded tuner market? "The Cosworth Atlantic Long Beach Grand Prix", brought to you by... Cosworth! (and Ford?)
I also think it would be more appropriate to see a Ford Focus Celebrity Race at Long Beach, but if the Toyota dealers are still pumping in big bucks...?
Dr. Corkski
07-30-05, 10:54 PM
According to the numbers I've heard, that would roughly cut the cost of a full-season effort in half. Good deal!No it wouldn't, but it would cost less than the current specs.
They are going to allow the 014 to run next year for C2 and Swift might even produce parts to update the 014 to 016 if there is enough interest. There should also be common parts between the 014 and 016.
But wouldn't Cosworth rather have someone elses name and CASH for that effort...or does KK see this as the big ad for a hugely expanded tuner market? "The Cosworth Atlantic Long Beach Grand Prix", brought to you by... Cosworth! (and Ford?)
I imagine Champ car will be talking to Ford about some money for putting the blue oval on the Atlantic cars. Cosworth will use this to make their pitch to the tuner market in return for a good deal on the engines but it will be up to Ford to decide if they want a piece of the publicity on that.
I don't think anything but Ford or Mazda badging is an option since it's a Ford engine.
cameraman
07-30-05, 11:43 PM
or does KK see this as the big ad for a hugely expanded tuner market? Why not? That looks to be a very good area for Cosworth to try to turn a profit. Do you see them turning a profit selling F1 lumps to Williams for one year?
My educated guess is that Atlantic budgets this year for most teams are in the $500k range. This new spec isn't helping that and actually hurting because teams have to buy brand new equipment and working through an untested chassis will cost time and money. And when the series says what a budget should be, multiply by at least 1.5 to be anywhere near the front.
The $2mil is fantastic but they could've done better on the tech side.
They are going to allow the 014 to run next year for C2 and Swift might even produce parts to update the 014 to 016 if there is enough interest. There should also be common parts between the 014 and 016.
That sounds good. Now, is there any movement on the SCCA front? It would be nice to see some cars running at regionals and nationals with FB on the side instead of FC. ;) BTW, I'm still dreaming of FA featuring slightly used Champ Cars. :)
Whatever our concerns may have been it sounds like full speed ahead for the series...27 new orders by 8-8, estimates of over 30 by this time next week, including new entrants. Sounds like most were READY for "new" and new has drawn in even more! Good deal. I'd have thought just 60hp more than the Mazdas wouldn't be enough to separate the Atlantics onto a distinctly higher rung, but I'm guessing if a problem IS seen along those lines, Cosworth would have little problem supplying a more powerful "solution."! :)
indyfan31
08-09-05, 03:24 PM
That sounds good. Now, is there any movement on the SCCA front? It would be nice to see some cars running at regionals and nationals with FB on the side instead of FC. ;) BTW, I'm still dreaming of FA featuring slightly used Champ Cars. :)
Isn't "FC" used by Formula Continental in SCCA?
Whatever our concerns may have been it sounds like full speed ahead for the series...27 new orders by 8-8, estimates of over 30 by this time next week, including new entrants. Sounds like most were READY for "new" and new has drawn in even more! Good deal. I'd have thought just 60hp more than the Mazdas wouldn't be enough to separate the Atlantics onto a distinctly higher rung, but I'm guessing if a problem IS seen along those lines, Cosworth would have little problem supplying a more powerful "solution."! :)
30 cars ordered is great. Now find 20-25 drivers who can write a $750,000 check or you'll have a lot of fresh cars laying around.
The Atlantics currently have only 15-20 hp on the Star Mazda and outrun them comfortably.
So, you think those guys are ordering new cars on mere speculation? Possible, I guess, but to me it feels more like, lets get in on the ground floor of a new revitalized series, and "they will come." Confidence, I think. I know the Atlantics were/will be faster than the Mazdas, I was thinking more about how they might compare to anything from the Renault series to IPS to A1, etc. I'm guessing the honey pot of cash at the end of the season is the BIG draw, not just the honor of it all.
Jervis Tetch 1
08-10-05, 12:14 AM
:thumbup:
So, you think those guys are ordering new cars on mere speculation? Possible, I guess, but to me it feels more like, lets get in on the ground floor of a new revitalized series, and "they will come." Confidence, I think. I know the Atlantics were/will be faster than the Mazdas, I was thinking more about how they might compare to anything from the Renault series to IPS to A1, etc. I'm guessing the honey pot of cash at the end of the season is the BIG draw, not just the honor of it all.
The $2mil could draw the guys who otherwise might have chosen a Cadillac Star Mazda effort ($450K) or guys with a so-so shot in GP2 or World Series by Renault who would rather have a guaranteed chance of moving on. But how many of those guys are there at $750,000 and probably more to win.
The car should be faster than IPS on road courses and short ovals but not quite up to World Series by Renault spec Dallaras.
Consider that a current Atlantic is about on par with an F3.
So, you think those guys are ordering new cars on mere speculation?
Hmm...do the teams have to pay the full cost upfront, or can they just put down a deposit when they place their order?
Hmm...do the teams have to pay the full cost upfront, or can they just put down a deposit when they place their order?
Deposit with progress payments probably. Paid in full before its delivered.
Really? Those IPS cars are F-Nippon's right, V-8s with over 400 hp? Why would they be slower on a road course? How did Atlantic vs. IPS times compare at St. Pete (knowing the track was "speeded up" for the "League") I mean for the competition alone and more road course races you'd think anyone aspiring to something besides an oval career would rather compete in Atlantics anyway. If Marco is running Kentucky next year while Matos or Rahal is in Atlantics at, say RA...well...it's over. :shakehead
Really? Those IPS cars are F-Nippon's right, V-8s with over 400 hp? Why would they be slower on a road course? How did Atlantic vs. IPS times compare at St. Pete (knowing the track was "speeded up" for the "League") I mean for the competition alone and more road course races you'd think anyone aspiring to something besides an oval career would rather compete in Atlantics anyway. If Marco is running Kentucky next year while Matos or Rahal is in Atlantics at, say RA...well...it's over. :shakehead
IPS are World Series by Renault/Nissan Dallara chassis and gearbox.
The Atlantics can make up the horsepower deficit due to lower weight and better aero. Don't forget an Atlantic can corner and brake better than a Champ Car in some turns.
extramundane
08-10-05, 08:55 PM
30 cars definitely looks possible... (http://www.toyotaatlantic.com/News/Article.asp?ID=1848)
Walker/Team Australia, Conquest, Brooks, Polestar, Condor, US Racetronics and Dan Cobb to all run 2 cars each
Sierra Sierra to run four (!!!) cars
Rahal to run 1 for Graham "pending necessary sponsorship"
RoomStore in for 1
PR1 to run 3 cars
Gelles to have a "multi-car" effort
Jensen to run something or other (unless F3000 parties at Monaco interfere, no doubt...)
That's at least 26 right there...
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