Making Cleveland Better

[Andrew Longman]

89,000 for the weekend is a respectable showing. It's nothing compared to the old days when they had at least twice the stands they do today, but that was then.

CCWS says they are looking for increased corporate participation in the event, and I think that means local corporate support similar to what they got from Intel in Portland.

I think their business model of "taking it to the streets" requires and assumes a level of community and corporate investment to make it work and I think its probably always been that way going back to old days.

I believe they are looking for at least a million more in sponsorship to get jumbotrons and lights for the event, which I agree are the greatest needs to attract fans, and they are undoubtably looking for much more.

But after three trips to Cleveland, I don't know where they will get it. The two largest office buildings downtown are for sale because their parent companies have been bought. The "Flats" is in decline and no longer drawing people to downtown. The Tribe no longer sells out. The mood around town seems to be that building the new stadium for the Browns at taxpayer expense was a mistake so asking more from the city is unlikely. Firestone, US Bank and Budweiser are already helping out. My sense is the Cleveland Clinic might be the biggest employer now and seem an unlikely motorsport sponsor.

I'm not trying to be doom and gloom and I've really seen progress in the last few years, but who specifically should they be targeting to get support?

One idea they don't seem to have tapped is promoting the race OUTSIDE of Cleveland. Word is that down the road in Columbus no one heard about the race. I would think that one of their goals would be to get people to come to Cleveland and experience a newer, cleaner, hipper and more fun place than they think of when they think of Cleveland. On the east coast Baltimore pulled that off and now people travel there for getaway weekends. RR Hall of Fame aside I don't think Cleveland is there yet.

[dando]

One idea they don't seem to have tapped is promoting the race OUTSIDE of Cleveland.
But, but, but I was there. :gomer:

That's true. There was little or no marketing in Cbus (I heard/saw nothing), and I assume that must be the same in Dayton, Toledo, and Detroit. I heard a radio ad for the race on the way home from the track on Sun on the Cleveland ESPN Radio affiliate, so I know they did them there.. They need to be doing that on The Fan in Cbus. There were ads all over the air for Indy and the USNP. Why not the GPoC? The local paper did cover the race, which was surprising, but the stories were tucked away on page 2 or 3 of Sports. The city also needs to get involved, as they have a vested interest in the success of the race and other events downtown. $1 invested in an event like this can easily return $2.

-Kevin

[RichK]

Placing the race 1 week from the USGP would've killed it for me (if I were a Midwesterner).

Regarding event sponsorship: it seems to be at the same level as the series' sponsorship. "Chicken and egg syndrome"....which comes first?

It was a great race & very well attended from the looks of it.

[Sean O'Gorman]

They need to find a way to harness the media and revive their image, which is tough because aside from the night race in '03, what exactly is noteworthy with the race these days? Two days after the race, there was zero mention of the GP in the Cleveland PD, and the series will pretty much fall off the map for the next 51 weeks.

Comments I've heard this year in the days/weeks leading up to the event include:

-"I thought they stopped holding that race years ago"
-"That is great that they are helping out us F1 fans, thanks for telling me"
-"The Cleveland GP is the easiest event in town to get free tickets for"
-"Indy cars are big money and it is an expensive event that most sized companies can't afford to sponsor" (this one came up in my advertising class, surprisingly enough)
-"the drifting was the most exciting thing there, I don't get why you hate this stuff" :mad:

Also, getting people downtown seems to be more of a Cleveland problem than a Champ Car problem. It has been my impression that alot of people here don't like leaving the suburbs to do anything, which is a shame, as I discovered in my last year here at CSU that downtown is alot cooler if you are willing to make the drive. Of course, it doesn't help things as far as corporate hospitality is concerned when Cleveland is more concerned with building casinos and turning old steelyards into retail space, rather than attracting REAL jobs. :rolleyes:

I think another thing is they have to work on their ads. This year's were just awful. The theme was that other sports use racing terms when doing play-by-play because racing is so exciting. I didn't quite get it. I don't want to bash them because I met the marketing guy and him and his wife were great people, but the radio ads were very uninspiring. I think this might've been the first year that I don't remember seeing any TV ads too.

I think the most telling sign of the decline of the race was an ad during the for Executive Caterers. I'll have to rewind the tape and watch it again to try and figure out the date, but it looked like early to mid-90s. There were DOZENS of hospitality tents all along the area where the hangars are, and the ad boasted of how Executive Caterers was serving 50,000 meals a day in hospitality. :eek: When I went last year, i don't remember much of any hospitality.

I honestly don't see this event making any money in the near future and it worries me, because if it ever goes away, it probably wont come back. I hope they can figure something out.

[dando]

Also, getting people downtown seems to be more of a Cleveland problem than a Champ Car problem. It has been my impression that alot of people here don't like leaving the suburbs to do anything
That's not just a Cleveland problem, SOG. That's a problem in many cities, especially in the midwest. Cbus is struggling mightly with this issue, as more and more employers move to the 'burbs.

-Kevin

[KLang]

Sean, you could try attending your own home race. ;)

[Sean O'Gorman]

That is because Columbus IS an endless suburb. :p

[dando]

That is because Columbus IS an endless suburb. :p
****! Cleveland is a suburb that almost stretches the length of Lake Erie.

-Kevin

[Sean O'Gorman]

Sean, you could try attending your own home race. ;)

They should work around my racing schedule. :)

[Andrew Longman]

Comments I heard this weekend...

In NJ, "You're going on vacation to Cleveland this weekend!?!"

In the stands from some old timers, "When did this race switch over to Champcar? Two, three years ago?"

Also, "Well it didn't really switch. A lot of the teams went over to that Indy racing whatchacallit"

Also, "I've had four tickets to this for 18 years. I was afraid to give them up and every year looked forward to the upgrades. Now my son and I come, but I have trouble getting folks to use the other tickets. I had someone back out just yesterday"

My sense is that a lot of Clevelanders (is that what they call themselves), including my cousin's wife and her brother, come to this race every year because it is what you do. It's the big thing of the summer, but decreasingly so. And they don't follow the series the rest of the year.

CCWS have their work cut out for them. They seem to be doing it carefully and with rightsized expectations, a reasoned budget and business plan. This weekend's race was the first race in years where I felt that Champcar had a clear brand identity. Lots of Champcar Swag. Very little confusion about what champcar is all about. Comments like the above about when this became a champcar event at least point out that someone is noticing.

And I was driving across the backroads of PA yesterday I realized that it has been a very long time since I went to a Champcar race and the attendance was up over the year before. :thumbup:

[dando]

In NJ, "You're going on vacation to Cleveland this weekend!?!"

Well, I get that in reverse each year before we make the trek out to OCNJ. ;)

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

Well, I get that in reverse each year before we make the trek out to OCNJ. ;)

-Kevin

Got me. But I will say it with pride to anyone who listens. :gomer:

Funny thing I was fueling my car in Richmond Heights on the way out of town and a guy at the next pump asked where in Jersey I was from. He goes to the beach in Manasquan every summer.

But anyone who doesn't know about how cool the Jersey Shore is didn't listen to old Springsteen albums :)

[TKGAngel]

Also, getting people downtown seems to be more of a Cleveland problem than a Champ Car problem. It has been my impression that alot of people here don't like leaving the suburbs to do anything, which is a shame, as I discovered in my last year here at CSU that downtown is alot cooler if you are willing to make the drive. Of course, it doesn't help things as far as corporate hospitality is concerned when Cleveland is more concerned with building casinos and turning old steelyards into retail space, rather than attracting REAL jobs. :rolleyes:

I stayed in downtown Cleveland this weekend, and aside from the Indians traffic on Friday and Saturday night, there was pretty much zero traffic on E 9th St. One other thing that bugged me was that many of the restaurants around the hotel were not opened. The stinkin Subway even closed early. I dont want to have to travel miles to get food. And perhaps they could educate the hotels that there is a race in town for the weekend. Just a thought.


I think another thing is they have to work on their ads. This year's were just awful. The theme was that other sports use racing terms when doing play-by-play because racing is so exciting. I didn't quite get it. I don't want to bash them because I met the marketing guy and him and his wife were great people, but the radio ads were very uninspiring. I think this might've been the first year that I don't remember seeing any TV ads too.

I didn't see any of the ads in the PD or on the radio, but I know they did have a banner ad presence on the PD website. Since an increasing number of newspapers have growing online circ, maybe this was a smart move after all.

Putting on my media planner hat for a minute, you would think they would come up with a definition of who their target audience is, and then develop a media strategy from there. Is it those within 100 miles? 200 miles? Cities who formerly had a race but now don't? All of the above? Kind of sad when I see an ad in the PD for the casinos located on the US side of the Niagara Falls border, but no ads in the Buffalo Snooze for the race. Doubly sad considering we're starting to get hit over the head with ads for the Toronto race.



I honestly don't see this event making any money in the near future and it worries me, because if it ever goes away, it probably wont come back. I hope they can figure something out.

There was a tiny blurb in the Sunday or Monday PD about how the Cuyahoga County Board of Commissioners made a 200k "donation" to the Cleveland race this year, and how it probably won't happen again.

Sure this race and city have their challenges, but I really think tptb in charge of this race are getting their act together, and I think next year will be better than this year.

[Andrew Longman]

Going after fans within driving distance is fine, but the key they say is corporate sponsorship a la Intel in Portland. So what businesses in NE Ohio should they be targeting?

Obviously those that would also have an interest in spending marketing dollars reaching out to the target CCWS audience would be at the top of the list.

I just don't know Cleveland industry that well (what's left of it anyway)

One piece of interesting information was a piece in the PD over the weekend saying how important it is for Cleveland to market itself overseas, Immigrants in portals like NYC and LA have a lot of influence on who and where talent from around the globe come to. The case was being made that if Cleveland is to thrive in a global economy it must do a better job of becoming a destination city for immigrant talent.

Makes sense since Cleveland was built on the backs of German, Polish, Italian, Irish and other "muscle" talent that immigrated in the early 20th century. Now they must attract knowledge workers that can compete with New Delhi, Dublin, San Jose and Singapore

[Gnam]

I was at a Lincoln Electric seminar a couple of months ago. They are a huge welder/consumables manufacturer located just up the road from Cleveland in Eastlake. I was talking to one of the salesmen and he mentioned how they are involved in racing (NASCAR, NHRA, IRL) as part of their marketing plan.

When I asked them if they were involved with the Cleveland Grand Prix, all I got were blank stares. :shakehead

[TurboTodd]

Well, I went to Cleveland. Drove from Texas, I did.

Glad to attend my first champcar race since the TMS-CART debacle.

Todd (if you saw a guy in a crappie shirt, with a blonde in a pink Alpinestars shirt, that might have been me)

Ease of getting in and out of the track was nice, the pre-race seemed a bit dis-organized and amateurish. The seats were great, about 20 yards short of pit-in. Had some IRL yahoos in front of me (at least they were there.)

Tips? For the 4 days before the race, I was in Canada. And every 30 minutes, I heard an awesome promo for the Toronto race. I heard PT at a radio station in TO on Thursday morning. I heard promotion.

Cleveland? Didn't heard squat. Did see little spots on the news about how hot it was going to be.. Big draw of the weekend was the Tribe/Reds games..

Todd

[Winston Wolfe]

If you really want to "Make Cleveland Better" you should move it to Florida !

j\k

Really, I've never been to the race in person, but I have seen it EVERY YEAR since 1991... It is typically one of the best races of the year to see on TV, and there is usually plenty of wheel to wheel action, which is strange for non-fendered vehicles, and for the most part, there is really nothing for the drivers to crash into, except the T9 wall coming on to the main straight....

I am no expert on Marketing a race, but the lap speeds, the wheel to wheel action, the proximity to so many cities close by, the potential for a Downtown Street Festival before the race, and getting the locals to cooperate would be some suggestions....

YES, the LBGP has been around longer, but a few people from Cleveland and other cities should come and see how the entire city rally around the GP weekend and there are plenty of businesses, restaurants and the like who make plenty of money the weeks preceeding the race....

I was in Cleveland last year just two weeks before the race, and saw quite a few promotional banners and info about the race in the downtown area. Perhaps having the race "out" at the airport, instead of right in the downtown could affect restaurant\bar business, but someone has to try something !!!!

[Napoleon]

Funny thing I was fueling my car in Richmond Heights on the way out of town and a guy at the next pump asked where in Jersey I was from.

At the Sunoco on Wilson Mills just off 271? What were you doing there?

[mueber]

A free grid girl to the first ten three day ticket purchasers...

[Napoleon]

The two largest office buildings downtown are for sale because their parent companies have been bought.

Huh? Who?


The "Flats" is in decline and no longer drawing people to downtown. The Tribe no longer sells out.

It declined because in part the Warehouse District developed and competed with it. And the East Bank of the Flats is be redeveloped in a nearly ¼ Billion Dollar project which is far better then its prior use.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/111589040035220.xml&coll=2

The Tribe sold out last Sat. night, and you really can’t expect then to sell out as much as they did years ago. No other team does, why should they?


The mood around town seems to be that building the new stadium for the Browns at taxpayer expense was a mistake so asking more from the city is unlikely.

There is something to that.


Firestone, US Bank and Budweiser are already helping out. My sense is the Cleveland Clinic might be the biggest employer now and seem an unlikely motorsport sponsor.

That maybe true, but then again what about Marconi made them a natural? Or US Bank for that matter?



One idea they don't seem to have tapped is promoting the race OUTSIDE of Cleveland. Word is that down the road in Columbus no one heard about the race.

I suspect there is nothing to be gained. If a person wants something to do on a weekend and advertising is going sway them, it better be something that is easy and convenient to drive to. Ask yourself this question, if you never go to art shows (the ones where the artist sells his own creations) and decide you want to check one out, do you drive 100 miles to attend your first one or do you go to one 15 miles away? People coming from C-bus are going to do it because they already like the product (by the way, I forget, do they mention up coming races on TV broadcast? If so it seems to me that if you are somewhat interested you are watching some of the races on TV and would likely make your decision to go to a future race that way.

I think your take on Cleveland by an large is off the mark.

Also they do market it heavily locally. You can piss and moan about the quality of this ad vs. that ad, but its all but impossible not to know about the race if you live here. Even the local TV anchors can actually talk about the race and actually appear to understand/follow racing, and the Champcars. If there is a reason the event isn’t doing as well as it did, or you think it could, there are other reasons.

[Sean O'Gorman]

My sense is that a lot of Clevelanders (is that what they call themselves), including my cousin's wife and her brother, come to this race every year because it is what you do. It's the big thing of the summer, but decreasingly so. And they don't follow the series the rest of the year.

With only about 15-20,000 people showing up on race day (that 89,000 is bulls***, but I don't want to get into it), I don't think the race can be classified as the "big thing of the summer." Perhaps it used to be, but I get the impression that the media feels more obligated to cover it than they do compelled to.

I remember in the mid-to-late '90s, the morning show on WEWS-5 (ABC) was ALL about the Grand Prix, and they had anchors as pit reporters, and drivers on all week, etc. Hell, I remember the 6:00 news after the '96 race was 28 minutes of CART, and 2 minutes of some kid getting murdered and various other news, all of which was piled at teh back. Now it just doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

Anyway, getting back on track, you are 100% correct about the people at the event not following the series. This is where I start beating my dead horse. ;) My problem with the Champ Car schedule is that they concentrate solely on the local market at every event and do NOTHING to try and cultivate a fanbase that follows the series year round. "Ooh, ooh, we have an Argentinean driver, we need an Argentina round!" "Ooh, ooh, we want a Korean sponsor, let's add a Korean round!" Basically, IMO, what you end up with is a series that offers a little bit of a benefit to each sponsor or fan, but the complete package for no one.

My uncle spends hundreds on tickets for the race every year, buying more tickets than he'll need, yet he wont watch a single race on TV this year. The same applies to the IRL race at Michigan. He hated the IRL, but when Michigan switched over, he kept going, even though he has no interest in the series.

Something is obviously broken. How do you fix this?

[nrc]

Anyway, getting back on track, you are 100% correct about the people at the event not following the series.
This weekend at Cleveland I saw the highest percentage of fans wearing actual Champ car gear that I think I've ever seen at an event.

Gosh, four popular champions battling in the top five with America's brightest young talent. How in the name of God and all that's holy can we FIX this?! :eek:

[Andrew Longman]

At the Sunoco on Wilson Mills just off 271? What were you doing there?

No, at the BP on the corner of Wilson Mills and Richmond. My cousin lives on Anderson and I bunked there for the weekend

[RaceGrrl]

Something is obviously broken. How do you fix this?

Figure it out.... You chose not to go to your home race, so as far as I'm concerned your words carry no weight. You always manage to write a dissertation about what Champ Car does wrong, but it's not enough of a priority to you to go to the races. That tells me all I need to know.

[Andrew Longman]

Huh? Who?

I was told by several locals that the SOHIO building went on the block when they became part of BP and HQs were consolidated. The second largest building was a bank HQ that met a similar fate and both are for sale.

It declined because in part the Warehouse District developed and competed with it. And the East Bank of the Flats is be redeveloped in a nearly ¼ Billion Dollar project which is far better then its prior use.

Don't get me wrong. I'm rooting for Cleveland and think that what they are doing downtown is great. Especially this latest round which will actually put people down their to live. Cleveland made the same mistake many cities do which is create attractions to visit but not stay. Places like Baltimore empty out after the workday or game is over. Cleveland seems the same way but going in the right direction

The Tribe sold out last Sat. night, and you really can’t expect then to sell out as much as they did years ago. No other team does, why should they?

I know. My son wanted to go and we were force to watch it from the parking garage across the street. Actually they were excellent seats, just lacking food and a bathroom and a little bit hard. But Saturday's game had the benefit of being a bobblehead night with fireworks against the Reds. Most game are far, far from a sellout and are not the draw expected to revitalize the downtown folks had originally hoped.

That maybe true, but then again what about Marconi made them a natural? Or US Bank for that matter?

I don't know the local business community. I was just looking for ideas for the business leaders CCWS should be targeting. I don't know what a natural fit is anymore. The Batman Begins 400? Who knows. But a hospital sponsoring a car race seems a stretch.

I suspect there is nothing to be gained. If a person wants something to do on a weekend and advertising is going sway them, it better be something that is easy and convenient to drive to. Ask yourself this question, if you never go to art shows (the ones where the artist sells his own creations) and decide you want to check one out, do you drive 100 miles to attend your first one or do you go to one 15 miles away? People coming from C-bus are going to do it because they already like the product (by the way, I forget, do they mention up coming races on TV broadcast? If so it seems to me that if you are somewhat interested you are watching some of the races on TV and would likely make your decision to go to a future race that way.

FWIW I heard here in NJ a radio ad asking me to come to Montreal this summer for, among many other things, to see "grand prix racing". Sold as a package the race can be seen as sweetening the city. But you're right, it help a ton if people already know and like the champcar product.

I think your take on Cleveland by an large is off the mark.

I don't claim to be an expert only an observant and interest visitor. Thanks for the enlightenment

Also they do market it heavily locally. You can piss and moan about the quality of this ad vs. that ad, but its all but impossible not to know about the race if you live here. Even the local TV anchors can actually talk about the race and actually appear to understand/follow racing, and the Champcars. If there is a reason the event isn’t doing as well as it did, or you think it could, there are other reasons.

People have gone on about how the coverage isn't what it used to be but I'll tell you I'm impressed by the coverage the PD gives it compared to what the local press gave Nazareth for what I see in many other cities.

[Napoleon]

No, at the BP on the corner of Wilson Mills and Richmond. My cousin lives on Anderson and I bunked there for the weekend

Ah, near The Mill bar and Catalano's.

You were in my neck of the woods more or less.

[Sean O'Gorman]

This weekend at Cleveland I saw the highest percentage of fans wearing actual Champ car gear that I think I've ever seen at an event.

I had the same thought last year, I think it means that all that is left are the hardcores who pretty much can't be chased away.


Gosh, four popular champions battling in the top five with America's brightest young talent. How in the name of God and all that's holy can we FIX this?! :eek:

Yes, the field is great, but what has it done to increase the fanbase? When was the last time you met a new fan in the past two years? Due to my encouragement, a friend of mine who is a NASCAR fan went on his own to the event on Friday (gen adm) and thought that it was amazing, but something kept him from buying a ticket, and he isn't likely to watch any events on TV without me constantly prodding at him to.

When the sidepods on the cars are covered in real sponsors and KK and GF don't have to subsidize any cars (including their own), and the races being run are all profitable, then I'll say its fixed. Even if it ends up being something I don't like, I'll still acknowledge their success. I just think they would be better off doing things my way. :)

[Sean O'Gorman]

Figure it out.... You chose not to go to your home race, so as far as I'm concerned your words carry no weight. You always manage to write a dissertation about what Champ Car does wrong, but it's not enough of a priority to you to go to the races. That tells me all I need to know.

Sorry for going to a race as a competitor rather than a spectator. :rolleyes: As far as I'm concerned, my words carry extra weight because if other people start following my lead (not that I expect to miss the GP every year), the series could be in even more trouble. I don't know if they will, but I know that oddlycalm has posted multiple times here that many of the people who spectated/sponsored Champ Car events are now doing track days and road racing instead. It is also asking a lot of a fan to keep dropping his or her favorite venues while expecting them to like the changes.

I just think that taking the stance that anyone who could potentially be lost as a fan should be ignored is an awful poor business practice.

[RaceGrrl]

"competitor"

Whatever. :rolleyes:

I could have been "competing" at the local Malibu Grand Prix myself. Instead, I chose to support my only local race instead of pontificating about what's wrong with the series and then going off to "compete."

[Sean O'Gorman]

Thanks for addressing my points instead of doing something petty like nitpicking at what I consider racing. :(

[RaceGrrl]

Did you record the races to watch later? Why not discuss that instead of continually harping on ChampCar's issues? We all know CC has its problems, but for cripe's sake- it's the racing season and the constant griping about ChampCar is a one note song that went out of tune a long time ago.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Did you record the races to watch later? Why not discuss that instead of continually harping on ChampCar's issues? We all know CC has its problems, but for cripe's sake- it's the racing season and the constant griping about ChampCar is a one note song that went ot of tune a long time ago.

Yes I did record the race, I just didn't really have anything to say about it. Y'all know that if I disliked the race I would've had a comment about that by now.

Besides, half the time it seems like I'm the only one who ever talks about Atlantics unless someone comes along to push their agenda on behalf of their favorite driver.

And anyway, isn't the topic about improving the promotion of the event? The business aspect is what I enjoy discussing the most, so I don't see what is wrong with me adding in my $0.02 as it relates to the GP.

[RaceGrrl]

All I'm saying is talk about the positives for once instead of spending so much time beating the dead horse. And now that you and I have hijacked this thread, I'd like to return it to topic by saying that this year's support races were really interesting to me. In the past I'd bring a book to read because there was so much dead time. It's been better the past few years.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Bring a book!? What at the events was so uninteresting to you? I can't think of a crappy support race since those stupid electric cars.

[devilmaster]

I just think they would be better off doing things my way. :)

Have you posted how your way should be? I have been waiting for that. Please enlighten me.

[RaceGrrl]

Yes... I used to bring a book. It wasn't that the support races were crappy, but I seem to remember a lot more dead time between the major races in years past.

The hardcore fans at the race this year improved the atmosphere, IMO. The energy was definitely up. It would be great to see all CC races have increased attendance with that kind of knowledgeable audience, but I'm not sure that will happen in the long-term. Hell, NASCAR fans wear Cup swag, but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of them don't know jack about the cars other than who drives what number.

[TKGAngel]

Yes... I used to bring a book. It wasn't that the support races were crappy, but I seem to remember a lot more dead time between the major races in years past.

small voice...I brought a book this year. With spending so much time in the Champions Club due to the heat and time at the hotel, I managed to get 3/4 of the way through "Skinny Dip" by Carl Hiassen (great writer BTW).

We all realize that the Champcar marketing at times is less than stellar. They're struggling at trying to reach new audiences while trying not to alienate their diehard fans. Market the SeaBass/PT rivalry, bring up the fact that AJ is smoking everyone, especially only after being in go-cars 4-5 years ago.

It probably wouldn't even bother me if they went after female using the eye candy aspect of some/all of the drivers. (Lord knows they go after the men using the Miss Indys of the world) Get the PR people to push someone - anyone - for People's sexiest people/men/bachelors issues that come out every other week. If it puts people in the seats, go for it.

[Stu]

I agree with most of what O'gorman is saying. He's a lot smarter than he looks. I was the friend of his that went down on Friday with a general admission ticket. And why not General Admission, there were only about a thousand people down there, you could sit where you wanted, it was pimp.

The thought that there were 89,000 people down there is a joke, even if you count drivers, crews, employees, parking attendants, hot dog stand workers, I still won't believe it.

The sad thing is that the track is horribly setup. Sitting in the grandstands, you can see all of half of the track. Now I'm a NASCAR guy, I like ovals. Why? Cuz you can see everything. I'm not saying they should redesign the track or anything, but redesign the seating to give the fans a better view of everything. Make it more elevated, and eventually, put it on both sides of the track if fan interest increases. Oh and who was the moron that painted the seats dark green? That was smart considering it was 95 degrees, sunny, and humid.

Sad thing number 2 is that the track is located in the middle of nowhere. Yes, it's in downtown Cleveland, but its not like you can walk to a bar or something after you leave. You have to cross the interstate, get to your car, and drive to a bar, there is no way around it and a lack of easy access isn't going to appeal to the casual fan.

Sad thing number 3 is that no one in Cleveland cares about Champ Car. Most people don't know what it is, and those that heard of the race thought that broad from the IRL was racing there. Like OGORMAN said, advertising is horrible and media support is incredibly low. No one is proud to have the race in Cleveland.

I'm sure I'll keep ranting later on.

[Sean O'Gorman]

The hardcore fans at the race this year improved the atmosphere, IMO. The energy was definitely up. It would be great to see all CC races have increased attendance with that kind of knowledgeable audience, but I'm not sure that will happen in the long-term. Hell, NASCAR fans wear Cup swag, but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of them don't know jack about the cars other than who drives what number.

Obviously this is just my personal opinion, but I actually think the exact opposite. When it is nothing but hardcores at the race (like Mid-Ohio '03 or Cleveland '04 were to me) I think it is a downer because it is a sign to me that no one new cares anymore. Newbies=good, and part of what makes a big race a big race is the fact that it draws people who normally wouldn't watch.

The absolute coolest thing about the race under the lights in '03 was all the new people it drew to the race. I had about ten friends and family members come with me who had either never gone to a Champ Car race, no longer followed the series, or had gone before and didn't care for it. They had an absolute blast until the actual race itself, which they thought was boring, and they didn't know who the drivers were besides Danica. I tried and tried to inform them but I think they all have a worse case of ADD than I do. ;)

I'm not expecting to sway anyone's opinion here, just give some background as to why I have my stance.

[Racing Truth]

Yes... I used to bring a book. It wasn't that the support races were crappy, but I seem to remember a lot more dead time between the major races in years past.

The hardcore fans at the race this year improved the atmosphere, IMO. The energy was definitely up. It would be great to see all CC races have increased attendance with that kind of knowledgeable audience, but I'm not sure that will happen in the long-term. Hell, NASCAR fans wear Cup swag, but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of them don't know jack about the cars other than who drives what number.

Wonderful, the hardcores are jacked. Too bad that does next to nothing to, you know, GROW THE SPORT.

So, if I've learned two things from this thread, they are as follow:

1. Don't worry, be happy. Reality need not always apply.

2. "I'd rather be righteous than, you know, successful." :shakehead

That said, it was a good race. The airport track, contrary to what Stu said, is IMHO, a great track for viewing. Perhaps the only lousy spot is the wheelchair seating, where I sit, b/c its further back and could be higher. Other than that, most would say it is one of THE BEST viewing tracks out there.

Hate to end on a negative, but nearly 90k for the weekend? For that to be reasonable, the place would have had to hold 50k. No way it holds 50k b/c, AFAIK, they haven't added grandstands in the past year. My guess? 30-35 k, with 40k being max.

[Racing Truth]

Obviously this is just my personal opinion, but I actually think the exact opposite. When it is nothing but hardcores at the race (like Mid-Ohio '03 or Cleveland '04 were to me) I think it is a downer because it is a sign to me that no one new cares anymore. Newbies=good, and part of what makes a big race a big race is the fact that it draws people who normally wouldn't watch.

The absolute coolest thing about the race under the lights in '03 was all the new people it drew to the race. I had about ten friends and family members come with me who had either never gone to a Champ Car race, no longer followed the series, or had gone before and didn't care for it. They had an absolute blast until the actual race itself, which they thought was boring, and they didn't know who the drivers were besides Danica. I tried and tried to inform them but I think they all have a worse case of ADD than I do. ;)

I'm not expecting to sway anyone's opinion here, just give some background as to why I have my stance.

Yep, and let me pose this question to the group:

Pre-split, was Indy the event it was b/c there were 300k hardcore fans there? My opinion: Obviously not. The broader national interest made it the event it was.

[Sean O'Gorman]

That said, it was a good race. The airport track, contrary to what Stu said, is IMHO, a great track for viewing. Perhaps the only lousy spot is the wheelchair seating, where I sit, b/c its further back and could be higher. Other than that, most would say it is one of THE BEST viewing tracks out there.

Agreed, although Cleveland doesn't really give you an opportunity to see the cars take various corners up close, like a permanent road course or a "traditional" street course would.

Stu hasn't come with me to Mid-Ohio yet so he hasn't had things put in perspective as far as road racing sightlines are concerned. And before any of y'all get all bent out of shape about one of my friends posting here, he has been lurking for a couple months, and really dislikes the IRL.

[Stu]

again, my viewpoint on the track is from an Oval background.

It didn't seem too bad, although you couldn't really see the east side of the track if you were on the west side of the grandstands.

I think the best place to sit would have been on the lake side of the track right smack dab in the middle, between turns 4 and 5. Longer walk but I think it would have been worth it. Heck, put in a bridge.

Very true OGORMAN, the IRL sucks big time.

Oh and one more thing, OGORMAN wanted me to enter my girlfriend in and dangit, she could have done really well. There were some incredibly ugly women entered into that contest.

[dando]

Sad thing number 2 is that the track is located in the middle of nowhere. Yes, it's in downtown Cleveland, but its not like you can walk to a bar or something after you leave. You have to cross the interstate, get to your car, and drive to a bar, there is no way around it and a lack of easy access isn't going to appeal to the casual fan.

Middle of nowhere? :confused: It's not convenient to city central, but I did manage to walk to The Jake Sat after the race (w/o crossing a highway, mind you). It would be nice if they included some public transport to the RTA terminal to go to the Flats, Jake, etc., as well as maps to the Cleveland hot spots. BUT it is w/in walking distance of a few watering holes (~1 mile), as well as the Rock 'n Roll HOF. Hardly the 'middle of nowhere' as you suggested. Check out MO sometime, and you will understand 'the middle of nowhere' concept.

-Kevin

[Stu]

Middle of nowhere? :confused: It's not convenient to city central, but I did manage to walk to The Jake Sat after the race (w/o crossing a highway, mind you). It would be nice if they included some public transport to the RTA terminal to go to the Flats, Jake, etc., as well as maps to the Cleveland hot spots. BUT it is w/in walking distance of a few watering holes (~1 mile), as well as the Rock 'n Roll HOF. Hardly the 'middle of nowhere' as you suggested. Check out MO sometime, and you will understand 'the middle of nowhere' concept.

-Kevin

How did you get from the track to the jake without crossing the shoreway?

All I am saying is that its not a good enough race to justify the walk for the casual fan. My boss didnt even like the walk and hes a very big champcar fan. I park in the muni lot to go to Browns games and thats a heck of a walk but its worth it.

[dando]

How did you get from the track to the jake without crossing the shoreway?

I walked west on N. Marginal to 9th St., and south on 9th from there. No illegal jaywalks or anything. No lazy @zz, who will wait 10 minutes for a parking spot close to the mall, will attempt it, but it is possible for derranged folks like myself. :) According to MapQuest, the trip was 1.5 miles, but I think it was closer to 2 miles (due to the track location rather than the airport 'terminal').

-Kevin

[Stu]

I walked west on N. Marginal to 9th St., and south on 9th from there. No illegal jaywalks or anything. No lazy @zz, who will wait 10 minutes for a parking spot close to the mall, will attempt it, but it is possible for derranged folks like myself. :) According to MapQuest, the trip was 1.5 miles, but I think it was closer to 2 miles (due to the track location rather than the airport 'terminal').

-Kevin

Right so you crossed the shoreway at east 9th. Thats highway. Thats all I am saying.

[Sean O'Gorman]

All I am saying is that its not a good enough race to justify the walk for the casual fan. My boss didnt even like the walk and hes a very big champcar fan. I park in the muni lot to go to Browns games and thats a heck of a walk but its worth it.

Unless something changed since last year, they offered RTA service to the track from the muni lot, I just can't remember if it was free or $1.

[dando]

Right so you crossed the shoreway at east 9th. Thats highway. Thats all I am saying.
No. 9th street has an overpass over 90. The way you describe is like I was dodging cars travelling 70mph.

-Kevin

[dando]

Unless something changed since last year, they offered RTA service to the track from the muni lot, I just can't remember if it was free or $1.
I asked the ladies @ the Info desk...transport was available to the reserved parking area on N.Marginal, but not to the terminal or muni lots.

-Kevin

[Stu]

Unless something changed since last year, they offered RTA service to the track from the muni lot, I just can't remember if it was free or $1.

LOL, that would be 20% of the cost of the ticket on friday.

Anyway, still, that was a minor gripe that I just saw as an inconvenience for some people.

[rabbit]

A newspaperman's perspective on Cleveland promotion:

Did anyone see the special section that the Plain Dealer did for the race? It had Legge on the cover with the headline, "The Lady is a Champ." It was a 12-page section. Now, the size of these special sections, aka "tabs," as with any newspaper section, is determined by the number of ads sold. Ads will make up, on average, 33% of a section. The other 2/3 is articles and photos. Tabs are printed in four-page increments. A four-page tab isn't worth your time, so they print 8, 12, 16, 20 (etc.) page sections, based on the number of ads sold. A 12-page tab is tiny. When a local high school basketball team won the state tournament, The Lima News ended up printing a 32-page tab because of the volume of ads. Very few ads were sold for the GP tab, which indicate very little interest from local advertisers. Which would support SeanO's argument, IMHO.

And I don't think calling him out on his support of the series because he didn't attend this race is fair. He has invested a lot of time and money to attend races and to encourage friends, family, and other misc. new fans to attend races.

[RHR_Fan]

...It probably wouldn't even bother me if they went after female using the eye candy aspect of some/all of the drivers. (Lord knows they go after the men using the Miss Indys of the world) Get the PR people to push someone - anyone - for People's sexiest people/men/bachelors issues that come out every other week. If it puts people in the seats, go for it.

I'll be first in line to buy the 2006 Champ Car driver calendar! :D Shoot, I'll coordinate the whole thing.

~Nicole

PS--> I thought Cleveland was a good race. :)

[nrc]

How did you get from the track to the jake without crossing the shoreway?

All I am saying is that its not a good enough race to justify the walk for the casual fan. My boss didnt even like the walk and hes a very big champcar fan. I park in the muni lot to go to Browns games and thats a heck of a walk but its worth it.

This is a forum for Champ car enthusiasts. I'm afraid that if you don't think the walk from the municiple lot to the track is worthwhile then you're in the wrong place.

[Stu]

This is a forum for Champ car enthusiasts. I'm afraid that if you don't think the walk from the municiple lot to the track is worthwhile then you're in the wrong place.

This is getting overblown. I made the walk, I had no problem with it. Its not a problem for champ car fans cuz they would walk across hot coals to get to a race. All I am saying, is that its an issue the track has to deal with to get fans to the track. I did hear and see people complaining about it when I was walking, especially sine it was 95 degrees out. Whether its a better bussing system (which I never saw when I was there) or something else that they need, I don't know. This thread was about making the race better, to get more people there, and improve the image of champ car in Cleveland. There is no parking very near the track, and I feel that that can be improved for future races.

[Sean O'Gorman]

There is no parking very near the track, and I feel that that can be improved for future races.

Yes there is, 2005 was the first year for it. I have no idea how one goes about getting access to it (not sure if you have to order it in advance or not), but my dad used the at-the-track parking on Saturday and I don't even remember him buying tickets for the event.

And then of course there was the year I came across a Media parking pass and got to park in the paddock next to the Million Air hangar. Man was that convenient, I even had a place to keep a cooler full of drinks. :)

[Stu]

Yes there is, 2005 was the first year for it. I have no idea how one goes about getting access to it (not sure if you have to order it in advance or not), but my dad used the at-the-track parking on Saturday and I don't even remember him buying tickets for the event.

And then of course there was the year I came across a Media parking pass and got to park in the paddock next to the Million Air hangar. Man was that convenient, I even had a place to keep a cooler full of drinks. :)

Hmm, that gives me an idea. Remind me next year to talk to my dad's buddy, he should be good for at least media parking passes.

[Methanolandbrats]

This is getting overblown. I made the walk, I had no problem with it. Its not a problem for champ car fans cuz they would walk across hot coals to get to a race. All I am saying, is that its an issue the track has to deal with to get fans to the track. I did hear and see people complaining about it when I was walking, especially sine it was 95 degrees out. Whether its a better bussing system (which I never saw when I was there) or something else that they need, I don't know. This thread was about making the race better, to get more people there, and improve the image of champ car in Cleveland. There is no parking very near the track, and I feel that that can be improved for future races. Geezus, now I understand why there is no hope. If f'n downtown Cleveland is in the middle of nowhere, then Road America and any real racetracks must be the equivalent of climbing Everest without oxygen. F it, I give up.

[FCYTravis]

This is a forum for Champ car enthusiasts. I'm afraid that if you don't think the walk from the municiple lot to the track is worthwhile then you're in the wrong place.
Apparently, so were any casual fans looking for a good first impression of Champ Car. It's ironic that you'd make that statement in a thread that's asking how to make Cleveland a more attractive outing. Fine, so the Champ Car enthusiasts might think the walk is OK. All 100 of us. The potential new fans that Champ Car desperately needs to thrive might not.

How hard is it to run a bunch of shuttles from the parking lot? Daytona does it, Sears Point does it...

[dando]

Yes there is, 2005 was the first year for it. I have no idea how one goes about getting access to it (not sure if you have to order it in advance or not), but my dad used the at-the-track parking on Saturday and I don't even remember him buying tickets for the event.

Premium parking could be ordered in advance for $30/weekend sans ticket.

-Kevin

[Ankf00]

how bad is this walk compared to montreal going through the metro all the way to the gold stands/pits?

then again, I walk or cycle everywhere and anywhere wherever I can so I never care :)

[dando]

How hard is it to run a bunch of shuttles from the parking lot? Daytona does it, Sears Point does it...
FCY, it's a two-lane road (and tight), that doesn't have easy access to the highway next to it. Not impossible, but not really plausible.

-Kevin

[Sean O'Gorman]

And I don't think calling him out on his support of the series because he didn't attend this race is fair. He has invested a lot of time and money to attend races and to encourage friends, family, and other misc. new fans to attend races.

Thanks, John. :thumbup:

The race could've been 100% everything I wanted to see and I still would've made the same choice. I watch racing because I want to do it myself, and anytime the opportunity comes up to race in a major (by autocross standards) event for cheap, I'm going to take it. I simply have more fun as a participant than I do a spectator. Obviously some people don't think that way, but it is their opinion, nothing wrong with that.

I still did everything I could to help out the race (like get tickets out to dando and Lizzerd, and get my friend to at leaset check it out), because ultimately, all I want out of the sport is to make as many new fans as possible. I criticize because I'd like to provoke thought that could hopefully lead to improvements. That is all. :)

[dando]

how bad is this walk compared to montreal going through the metro all the way to the gold stands/pits?

then again, I walk or cycle everywhere and anywhere wherever I can so I never care :)
Come up once and find out f00boy. :gomer:

-Kevin

[RaceGrrl]

Boo hoo, you had to walk a mile in 95 degree heat. You're going to a road race- of course you're going to walk. If what it's about for you is parking close and your personal comfort instead of the excitement and well gee, folks.. the RACING, then you're following the wrong sport. You'd really hate the REAL road courses.

This isn't about Champ Car cheerleading. This is about people whining because they're inconvenienced a little for the sake of a good event. So what, you couldn't see all the track... that's what it means to go to a Champ Car race. You suck it up and you walk, in all kinds of weather.

[RaceGrrl]

How hard is it to run a bunch of shuttles from the parking lot? Daytona does it, Sears Point does it...

Not hard at all, the shuttles WERE running.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Do we really need this much discussion about PARKING? I think everything that could be said has been said by now.

Moving along...

[Ankf00]

Come up once and find out f00boy. :gomer:

-Kevin

to quote a great man...

"cleveland is the college station of the midwest"

:gomer:

[Stu]

Boo hoo, you had to walk a mile in 95 degree heat. You're going to a road race- of course you're going to walk. If what it's about for you is parking close and your personal comfort instead of the excitement and well gee, folks.. the RACING, then you're following the wrong sport. You'd really hate the REAL road courses.

Me walking in 95 degree heat = not a problem

Other Clevelander's walking in 95 degree heat = a minor inconvenience that could keep people that live in the 6th fattest city in the world from deciding to go to the track on a Friday or Saturday. Make things easier and you'll make people happier. My question is, why is everyone complaining about this, would you rather have worse parking or better? Lets get off such a minor issue.

[Methanolandbrats]

to quote a great man...

"cleveland is the college station of the midwest"

:gomer:No way. VEry insulting statement. No f'n Aggie retard would ever last a day in the midwest. :)

[RaceGrrl]

I criticize because I'd like to provoke thought that could hopefully lead to improvements. That is all. :)

Ok, that's valid. So what are your suggestions for improving it?

Devilmaster asked you this same question a page and a half ago and you still haven't answered it.

[Ankf00]

Yep, and let me pose this question to the group:

Pre-split, was Indy the event it was b/c there were 300k hardcore fans there? My opinion: Obviously not. The broader national interest made it the event it was.

"hardcore" fans don't make all 84,000 seats at Darrell K Royal Texas Memorial Stadium sold out with EVERYONE holding season tickets nothing less...

"hardcore" fans didn't have the Dallas Stars selling out for years on end all the way down in Texas

hardcore fans are great, they're us, but you've got to have that casual interesti to make $ otherwise you'll never sell out...

[Sean O'Gorman]

Ok, that's valid. So what are your suggestions for improving it?

Devilmaster asked you this same question a page and a half ago and you still haven't answered it.

I've answered this before, but I suppose I'll write them again tomorrow. I just have to finish studying for my last 2 finals first. :o

[RichK]

No way. VEry insulting statement. No f'n Aggie retard would ever last a day in the midwest. :)

Hmph! :mad:

[FCYTravis]

Boo hoo, you had to walk a mile in 95 degree heat. You're going to a road race- of course you're going to walk.
And herein lies the reason for the death of spectator road racing in North America. Attitudes like yours. "Oh, I'm a HE MAN ROAD RACING FAN, I WALK... those sissy oval fans just ride shuttles to their seats. I'm better than them."

Walk? Who are you kidding? Self-respecting road racing fans bring their own friggin' golf carts, quads or scooters.

Fine, real road racing fans walk. There aren't enough real road racing fans left in America to fill a AAA baseball stadium.

Y'all are always saying that the future of Champ Car is not the traditional road racing fan, but to capture the casual event fan. Well, then you better not bitch about those casual event fans not enjoying a mile-long walk in 95-degree heat because they just don't know that it's road-racing tradition to suffer for the glories of road courses.

Perhaps, if you're so enamored of these casual event fans, you should listen to their gripes and deal with them in a positive, respectful manner.

Or you could just pretend that their opinions don't matter. Whichever you prefer.

But I know which one is more constructive.

[nrc]

FCY, it's a two-lane road (and tight), that doesn't have easy access to the highway next to it. Not impossible, but not really plausible.

-Kevin
Actually there are shuttles. They run from Gate B over to the muni lot then back. These days most people are close enough to the bridge that they just walk.

There's also on site parking, $30 for the weekend. There's also on site RV parking, $100 for the weekend. There are also shuttles that run up and down inside the track.

If anything maybe they just need to do a better job of communicating what's available.

[dando]

Boo hoo, you had to walk a mile in 95 degree heat. You're going to a road race- of course you're going to walk. If what it's about for you is parking close and your personal comfort instead of the excitement and well gee, folks.. the RACING, then you're following the wrong sport. You'd really hate the REAL road courses.

This isn't about Champ Car cheerleading. This is about people whining because they're inconvenienced a little for the sake of a good event. So what, you couldn't see all the track... that's what it means to go to a Champ Car race. You suck it up and you walk, in all kinds of weather.
Grrl, watch folks @ a supermarket or a mall sometime. It's amazing how many folks will wait 5 minutes for a spot that's closer rather than drive 20' for a spot further away. Parking is an issue when fans need to find a way from a remote lot across a freaking highway.

Secondly, my suggestion was for better access to the RTA so that folks wouldn't need to walk 2-3 miles to get to entertainment options like the Jake or the Flats. Aye? Might may for better parking options as well.

-Kevin

[extramundane]

Boo hoo, you had to walk a mile in 95 degree heat. You're going to a road race- of course you're going to walk. If what it's about for you is parking close and your personal comfort instead of the excitement and well gee, folks.. the RACING, then you're following the wrong sport. You'd really hate the REAL road courses.

This isn't about Champ Car cheerleading. This is about people whining because they're inconvenienced a little for the sake of a good event. So what, you couldn't see all the track... that's what it means to go to a Champ Car race. You suck it up and you walk, in all kinds of weather.

Yep. If Overweight and Drunk Bubba can walk the 1.4 miles from the average RIR parking place, in the Mid-Atlantic humidity, to his seat for the NASCAR event, then anyone can do it.

[Methanolandbrats]

I cannot believe anyone would bitch about walking a mile in 95 degree temps. A mile? 5280 feet? Are you kidding? We're not talking about a sub-three hour marathon here. The average 100 pound overweight mall rat walks more that that on the way from Sears to the food court.

[dando]

If anything maybe they just need to do a better job of communicating what's available.

Bingo! As I posted, I asked the ladies @ the Info desk. Also, I did not see a bus going from the main gate past the premium parking lot. The busses to the muni lots must have been going east on N. Marginal, which is the opposite direction of the RTA terminal (as I was told). The only other option was to grab a cab ride, which really doesn't sit well w/midwesterners outside of the airport.

-Kevin

[FCYTravis]

Yep. If Overweight and Drunk Bubba can walk the 1.4 miles from the average RIR parking place, in the Mid-Atlantic humidity, to his seat for the NASCAR event, then anyone can do it.
No, that's what the umpteen jillion shuttle trams and buses are for. I'm at the Daytona International Speedway this weekend and I've never seen so many friggin' parking and infield transportation vehicles in my life. Sears Point hires a fleet of airport-style buses to take people around the track, from parking lots to grandstands to the paddock and everywhere in between.

Walking? What's that?

This is the market we're dealing with. We can either try to work with this reality or stick our heads in the sands and tell people who don't want to walk that they aren't worthy of attending Champ Car races.

[dando]

I cannot believe anyone would bitch about walking a mile in 95 degree temps. A mile? 5280 feet? Are you kidding? We're not talking about a sub-three hour marathon here. The average 100 pound overweight mall rat walks more that that on the way from Sears to the food court.
I said I had no problem with it...I walked to and from the track Sat and Sun (do you folks comprehend inglish? :mad: ). Checkout yer other fellow Americans, and their behaviors around malls/supermarkets, will ya? Then, just then, you may come to understand *normal consumer* behavior.

Oh, and if you want Bubba to make that walk, ya better not exclude coolers from the track, like I witnessed on Sunday.

EDIT:

And while I'm ranting...M&B, while I empathize w/your feelings about the series and the state of auto racing in general, this thread is about improving an existing race. Some have offered suggestions, and from my perspective as a first-time attendee, as objective as possible. Pissing all over the suggestions of those who attended the race is not constructive. Period. Sorry, but that's a fact, jack. Peace.

-Kevin

[RaceGrrl]

I also find the comment about dark green seats rather amusing. A Nascar fan complaining about hot seats? Get real... you'll pay some ridiculous price to sit in an aluminum frying pan, but you complain about rented bleachers facing the lake with a view of the entire track in front of you?

Oh that's right, can't see every bit of the track so the stands should be taller, right? Heck no, it might inconvenience people to walk up all of those steps. We'd need escalators to get them up there.

[Methanolandbrats]

[QUOTE=d

Oh, and if you want Bubba to make that walk, ya better not exclude coolers from the track, like I witnessed on Sunday.

-Kevin[/QUOTE] What? Cleveland did'nt let ya bring the traditional 12" cooler?If true, screw them, that violates the most sacred of racefan traditions. It calls for a Jihad.

[FCYTravis]

Even the ISC ****s let you bring one cooler!

[RaceGrrl]

What? Cleveland did'nt let ya bring the traditional 12" cooler?If true, screw them, that violates the most sacred of racefan traditions. It calls for a Jihad.


:laugh:

Coolers were allowed, as were backpacks and other bags, but all were subject to a cursory inspection. They allowed plastic bottles but no cans or glass bottles.

[RaceGrrl]

And while I'm asking for the world, I'd like permanent bathrooms, please, and free refreshments.

[nrc]

Fine, real road racing fans walk. There aren't enough real road racing fans left in America to fill a AAA baseball stadium.
So why do some folks say that the series can't survive unless they run more natural terrain courses to please half a triple-A baseball stadium full of fans?

Here is the problem. Some people complain when champ car does something that appeals to the diehard fans and they complain when they do something to try to create events for casual fans. That's the frustration that RaceGrrl is expressing.

This is a forum for champ car enthusiasts who want to talk about racing. We don't expect, nor do we want, that to mean cheerleaders. But we are also not going to have this forum dominated by people with no enthusiasm for the series who never have anything to offer but complaints. Constant, never-ending, incessant, mind-numbing whining about the same things over and over and over and over.

We're tired of it. It's not what we do this for. It's going to stop.

[Methanolandbrats]

So why do some folks say that the series can't survive unless they run more natural terrain courses to please half a triple-A baseball stadium full of fans?

Here is the problem. Some people complain when champ car does something that appeals to the diehard fans and they complain when they do something to try to create events for casual fans. That's the frustration that RaceGrrl is expressing.

This is a forum for champ car enthusiasts who want to talk about racing. We don't expect, nor do we want, that to mean cheerleaders. But we are also not going to have this forum dominated by people with no enthusiasm for the series who never have anything to offer but complaints. Constant, never-ending, incessant, mind-numbing whining about the same things over and over and over and over.

We're tired of it. It's not what we do this for. It's going to stop.Fine then, enjoy your dying series and goodbye.

[nrc]

What? Cleveland did'nt let ya bring the traditional 12" cooler?If true, screw them, that violates the most sacred of racefan traditions. It calls for a Jihad.Soft 12" coolers are permitted. Plastic bottles only. Again, maybe it's a communication thing.

Of course if you pay to park on-site you can bring the biggest cooler your trunk will hold.

[Ankf00]

I also find the comment about dark green seats rather amusing. A Nascar fan complaining about hot seats? Get real... you'll pay some ridiculous price to sit in an aluminum frying pan, but you complain about rented bleachers facing the lake with a view of the entire track in front of you?

Oh that's right, can't see every bit of the track so the stands should be taller, right? Heck no, it might inconvenience people to walk up all of those steps. We'd need escalators to get them up there.

i've never been burnt by aluminum, steel's another matter, but aluminum doesn't hold in the radiation very well.

[dando]

i've never been burnt by aluminum, steel's another matter, but aluminum doesn't hold in the radiation very well.
They were wood bleachers.

-Kevin

[Tifosi24]

These types of thread are always a pleasure to read. I always find it funny how everyone complains about casual fans and how promotors cater to them, and I will admit that I am guilty of this all the time. However, to say that these people should be tough enough to walk in the heat is laughable. You will have a hard time increasing your numbers at an event if you don't make it easily accessible. As a promotor of any kind, you are not selling an event to your loyal customers, as long as the product is slightly better than crap they will keep coming back. For that reason you need to go after new people, which might be folks that don't care to walk long distances in the heat, enjoy ricers doing lots of stupid donuts, or people just looking to have a good time. I look at new or casual people giving constructive criticism of an event as a good thing. If they think there should have been more buses, bigger stands, more bratwurst, etc. It means that they got some kind of enjoyment out of the event. If they didn't care about there time they probably wouldn't be complaining.

The real road racing fans walk around statement is also quite comical. I know it is true, but why make it in the first place. You can still be a diehard fan and have an event with casual people as well. While they are glued to their seats, why don't you just continue to roam around having a good time and having a better experience. It is more productive to think of ways to coexist with the casual fan then to make arrogant comments that they aren't real for wanting this or that. If the demands of the casual fan interfer with others, then you certainly have a problem, but I don't see that as a problem for this series in the foreseeable future.

[Ankf00]

The thought that there were 89,000 people down there is a joke, even if you count drivers, crews, employees, parking attendants, hot dog stand workers, I still won't believe it.

The sad thing is that the track is horribly setup. Sitting in the grandstands, you can see all of half of the track. Now I'm a NASCAR guy, I like ovals. Why? Cuz you can see everything. I'm not saying they should redesign the track or anything, but redesign the seating to give the fans a better view of everything. Make it more elevated, and eventually, put it on both sides of the track if fan interest increases. Oh and who was the moron that painted the seats dark green? That was smart considering it was 95 degrees, sunny, and humid.

Sad thing number 2 is that the track is located in the middle of nowhere. Yes, it's in downtown Cleveland, but its not like you can walk to a bar or something after you leave. You have to cross the interstate, get to your car, and drive to a bar, there is no way around it and a lack of easy access isn't going to appeal to the casual fan.


no, Texas Motor Speedway is in the middle of nowhere, it's ****ing South Oklahoma, it's bad enough Fort Worth is deader than dead, but that track is way the **** north, yet it has no problem bringing in 50K for the earl race, hell, you can't even get Hoegaarden on the tap in Fort Worth anymore thanks to Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission agents... and well, down in Texas, you drive everywhere so *shrug* party on, w/ cars... I rented a car and drove all over LB, and I attend 1/10th the champcar races everyone else here does. If you're a local I'd imagine you'd have your car and actually know where the heck you're going....

the 89,000 is a weekend total, not one day

can't see the whole track in one fell swoop? gee, welcome to road racing...
do you bitch at football games b/c you're not on the 50 in the first 10 rows? instead you're on the 35 or 15 near the bottom where you've got no height to look down upon the action 200 yards away from you on the opposite side of the field... but do you bitch? hell no, you're at a god damn football game having a blast
do you bitch at a ball game b/c you're too far away to see that 95mph slider break?
do you bitch at a hockey game b/c the puck is all of 4 inches and getting whacked around at 100+ mph on the slapshot and you have to watch the hoow the players react to figure out what's going on rather than just follow the puck?

welcome, hope you enjoy it here, but I'm sorry, I may be an idiot w/ actual mental issues, but I'm capable of appreciating nuances beyond checking out all of 1.5 mile loops with cars going in circles, tracks have screens, screens let you watch action, hell, I love my seats on the senna curve in Mtl, who cares if that's all I see, I'll watch the drivers in practice take their diff braking points and lines all day through that section seeing em approach down the front straight toward me and then take the left kink before the switchback, if my dumbass is capable of that much, I'd hope it's within the realm of possibility for others to be able to appreciate things just as much if not more if they're racing fans

[extramundane]

No, that's what the umpteen jillion shuttle trams and buses are for. I'm at the Daytona International Speedway this weekend and I've never seen so many friggin' parking and infield transportation vehicles in my life. Sears Point hires a fleet of airport-style buses to take people around the track, from parking lots to grandstands to the paddock and everywhere in between.

Walking? What's that?

This is the market we're dealing with. We can either try to work with this reality or stick our heads in the sands and tell people who don't want to walk that they aren't worthy of attending Champ Car races.

Richmond has city busses running shuttle service from multiple locations. Guess what...the crowd doesn't use it. They'd rather sit in traffic for 3 hours on Laburnum Ave than take public transport from downtown. I live very close to 2 different shuttle stops; during the last NASCAR weekend, NOBODY used them.

As much as I love public transportation, it flat-out doesn't work for race traffic in certain markets.

[Opposite Lock]

There is a word strangely missing in this thread - "taxi" - which makes transportation really easy for us out-of-towners.

We flew in, took a "taxi" to the hotel downtown, which we'd chosen because it was an easy +/- 1 mile walk to and from Burke. No rental car or parking required. Took a long walk through the downtown on Saturday morning for sightseeing (the arcade buildings rock!), meandered from the Public Square down to around the Browns stadium, (could hear CC practice from there), past the R&R HOF, and finally arriving in the Paddock with enough time to explore before finding our seats for the beginning of the TA race (and simultaneous copter crash :gomer: ). Walked back to the hotel at the end of the racing day. Took a "taxi" over to Great Lakes Brewery in the evening. Hailed a "taxi" back at the end of the night. Had a great day!

Running late, took a "taxi" from the hotel to the track Sunday morning, after watching a live remote of the CC warmup on some local newscast. Had another great day at the track. Walked back to the hotel after the CC race, took the hotel limo (kind of like a "taxi" - same price) back to the airport to fly home.

"Taxis" also seemed comparatively cheap in Cleveland, at least compared to Chicago. I talked racing with a couple of the cabbies, ("Well, yes, technichally there is an "Unser" here" :shakehead ), but tipped well anyway as usual.

Overall, I thought Cleveland was pretty easy to get around in.

[rabbit]

The customer is always right, right?

[Andrew Longman]

CCWS said their top three priorities were 1) jumbotrons, 2) lights and 3) greater involvement (re sponsorship) from local business. The first two can't happen without the third and all are a heck of a lot more important than parking (which they addressed this year with the three day parking on site pass).

So, what can be done to get greater business involvement and who should they go after in the NE Ohio area?

[Elmo T]

I think some of these complaints fall under the "Cindy Crawford has an ugly mole" category. ;)

My Champcar visits have been limited to M-O, Cleveland, and Nazareth. We purchased an onsite parking permit for Cleveland, brought our backpack, left the cooler in the van, and walked back and forth between the two several times. Same as we have done with the other venues. We even walked to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame on Saturday. :rolleyes:

There were parking spots for the physically challenged - even a covered seating area. I saw hotel vans and buses shuttling folks from somewhere. We had no complaints about parking. It was easy in and easy out, with traffic control at the intersections. My only concern was dodging the broken glass in the parking area - but that was easily done.

[Stu]

no, Texas Motor Speedway is in the middle of nowhere, it's ****ing South Oklahoma, it's bad enough Fort Worth is deader than dead, but that track is way the **** north, yet it has no problem bringing in 50K for the earl race, hell, you can't even get Hoegaarden on the tap in Fort Worth anymore thanks to Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission agents... and well, down in Texas, you drive everywhere so *shrug* party on, w/ cars... I rented a car and drove all over LB, and I attend 1/10th the champcar races everyone else here does. If you're a local I'd imagine you'd have your car and actually know where the heck you're going....

It is in the middle of nowhere. But it still packs in the joint because they have something people want. Obviously Burke Lakefront Airport does not. I was just pointing out one downfall of the track in downtown Cleveland. More people would go if it were easier to get to, closer to work, or closer to the bars. That's all I am saying. Don't compare Texas to Cleveland, its like comparing Yankee stadium to a AA ballpark.


the 89,000 is a weekend total, not one day

Well aware of this, and I don't believe it. Considering that I doubt I saw 1000 people there on Friday and I am not ignorant enough to believe their numbers.


can't see the whole track in one fell swoop? gee, welcome to road racing...
do you bitch at football games b/c you're not on the 50 in the first 10 rows? instead you're on the 35 or 15 near the bottom where you've got no height to look down upon the action 200 yards away from you on the opposite side of the field... but do you bitch? hell no, you're at a god damn football game having a blast
do you bitch at a ball game b/c you're too far away to see that 95mph slider break?
do you bitch at a hockey game b/c the puck is all of 4 inches and getting whacked around at 100+ mph on the slapshot and you have to watch the hoow the players react to figure out what's going on rather than just follow the puck?

Yea I complain at Browns games when I don't have good seats. So what I do is buy better seats. Why settle for what you have now when there can be better. Thats all I am saying, I think it can be improved, so look into it. Do me a favor though, next time you have good seats to a baseball game, give me a call, I'll buy the nosebleeds, and we can trade. Since you don't care.