Analysis

[Racing Truth]

OK, so Tayoter is gone, Chevy is gone, Honda appears gone.

I keep trying to figure out how Tony George is not seriously screwed. Sure, he can go with the "Illske" option, but you're losing a bunch of teams, cars, and drivers. And I doubt the Illske will be cheap enough to attract many new teams. Apparently, the GA option is gone. Hyundai? :laugh: :laugh:

Sure, he could try to go Vision v.1.0, but no one would be buying it.

Pssst, Tony, KK has some engines. If you stop demanding total control, you could save us all another 5 yrs. of stupidity. But you probably won't. :(

[JoeBob]

Penske will offer spec Illmors with Chevy badging, much the same way that Cosworth supplies spec engines with Ford badging.

The faithful will celebrate the departure of the Yen, the return of Foyt and Hemelgarn to prominence, refer to Tony George's vision of equal access to engines, and continue to the IRL's evolution into the Son of CART.

[devilmaster]

As this has dragged on over a decade now (ya know a decade just sounds longer than saying 10 years, even though its the same time length.... anyways), the one thing i know i've learned is that no matter how stupid it has been, no matter how dumb the participants can make it, it still hasn't hit the bottom.

What does that mean? Tony has more money than brains. He has a year and a half to find some sort of solution. I suspect there will be something out there. And no doubt, I probably won't like that solution.

[cart7]

I agree with Joebob but I don't think we'll see anywhere near the cars or teams that were present in the original version back in '96-97. Most of those teams are long gone There's no Galles, Treadway, Simon, Walker (too involved with Champcar) or Menard (IRS problem) most of the others couldn't sell the irl now to get enough money to buy a set of tires. I think you'll see a real car count issue in 07 and possibly even sooner.

[NismoZ]

Why do you think the GA engine option is dead and why would Chevy badge an Ilmor when Cosworth is doing such a great job for them now? Remember KK has said he'd build IRL engines because "it's good for business." Has anyone read differently? Do you really think Hyundai is the ONLY mfgr. who might ask Cosworth to win the "Indy 500" for them? With possible failing fortunes in F-1 might an IRL engine spec job for Cosworth be REALLY good for business? I just wish that could be parlayed into a common engine/chassis spec for '07 that might lead to a resurgence of openwheel racing here, with CC, KK and Cossie flourishing, if not calling the shots! :)

[devilmaster]

I suppose the logical (i know, i know, we're talkin bout TG) thing is that Cosworth was fine because it helped to prop up Chevy at a time it was reeling from the competition, and one could surmise, kept Chevy in the league for a few years longer.

With Chevy totally gone, the question becomes would TG see a value in having Cosworth engines from the rival series if they weren't badged to a major manufacturer?

[Racing Truth]

Why do you think the GA engine option is dead and why would Chevy badge an Ilmor when Cosworth is doing such a great job for them now? Remember KK has said he'd build IRL engines because "it's good for business." Has anyone read differently?

TSO has said as much, as have others. KK said that in regards to Hyundai. Honda's not gonna stick around to go against Hyundai, so you'd have "The Indy Racing League Powered by Hyundai?" :saywhat:

Again, they can go Illske I suppose, but unless they pull a rabbit out of a hat, I don't se much in car count.

[ChrisB]

Penske will offer spec Illmors with Chevy badging, much the same way that Cosworth supplies spec engines with Ford badging.

I agree.. I think that's plausably how it's going to play out.

[FTG]

Tony will write cheques. Someone will cash them. About 100
Internet gomers will think its great. No one else will care.

[Racing Truth]

Penske will offer spec Illmors with Chevy badging, much the same way that Cosworth supplies spec engines with Ford badging.

I agree.. I think that's plausably how it's going to play out.

I'm not saying that won't happen, but they'll be lucky to get 14 cars on the grid, IMHO.

No Yen= No teams.

[coolhand]

I dont see how going back to Vision 1.0 will work. It wont draw the car counts post-CART indy did. the Damage is done.

they will need new chasis and engines again. and who is going to invest in that equipment when Tony could sell out to the next manufactuer that comes along and driver the costs up? I dont think that people are waiting for costs to go down in the IRL so they can get back in. they cannot expect those small sponsors to support races outside indy in places like Sparta and Homstead.

Formula Illmor is all that i can see them do and that even wont work. there simply is no money.

The other option is to Can the IRl and make Indy an event open to all entrants with some dumb downed rule basically making it a vintage race.

[JT265]

Donnie Beechler would drive a Hyundai powered car. :p



















:rofl:

[coolhand]

hyundai Tiberon Pace cars (the poor mans ferrari) :gomer:

[DagoFast]

Somewhere in indyanner, someone is welding up another Silver Crown chassis. USAC will be ready to answer the phone when it rings. :gomer: :gomer:




:rofl:

[Brickman]

I'm not saying that won't happen, but they'll be lucky to get 14 cars on the grid, IMHO.

No Yen= No teams.

That's what I said about CART, and ended up writing a check for $100 because I was wrong. Tony will write checks like Pook did and like Kalkoven is to make a full field (18) happen.

It will be interesting to see who Penske ends up bringing, although Porche sounds outright wacky, I could see him structure a deal where they badge them, but Tony puts up the money an extension of his ALMS deal. Would that satisfy Honda? Who would satisfy Honda?

Also as someone else has pointed out, since the traditional manufacturers are just represented in the "badging" process, I wouldn't be surprised to see an engine badged by Bombardier or even an non engine entity.

[coolhand]

It will be interesting to see who Penske ends up bringing, although Porche sounds outright wacky, I could see him structure a deal where they badge them, but Tony puts up the money an extension of his ALMS deal. Would that satisfy Honda? Who would satisfy Honda?

Also as someone else has pointed out, since the traditional manufacturers are just represented in the "badging" process, I wouldn't be surprised to see an engine badged by Bombardier or even an non engine entity.

you got to be kidding

I could only see porsche on the engines with no porsche money.

the Money is the big loss, not the stickers on the cars.

[Ozarkian]

Personally, I don't see what would attract Porsche to be associated with the Indy 500 (in its current state) or the IRL. But, then again, they did build an SUV ...

[nrc]

The interesting thing is that it's Penske who commented that the engine manufacturers might be in a position to force some kind of common spec. Why would he bail George out with engines with no compromise if that's what he really believes should happen?

[Brickman]

you got to be kidding

I could only see porsche on the engines with no porsche money.

the Money is the big loss, not the stickers on the cars.

Like I said, Tony puts up the money. AGR can keep their "sponsors" Jim Beam, arca/ex, XM Satellite Radio etc.

[Brickman]

The interesting thing is that it's Penske who commented that the engine manufacturers might be in a position to force some kind of common spec. Why would he bail George out with engines with no compromise if that's what he really believes should happen?

Because he can't get others to force a common spec too. I doubt it's as much about the money side as it is controlling his own destiny side, but they could be equal.

[Ziggy]

FTG
Veteran

Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 408

Tony will write cheques. Someone will cash them. About 100
Internet gomers will think its great. No one else will care.


Thanks for the chuckle :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[DjDrOmusic]

I think Roger Penske holds the key to bringing this festering mess to a merciful end. He wants to be the savior of the Indianapolis 500, IMHO, and knows his last few wins there are tainted and meaningless. But if he can force an end to the IRL madness and return the once great race to it's status as the Greatest, he will then be hailed again as the Ferrari of NA racing and become more than just a legend in his own mind. I think we may see some interesting movement very soon with meetings between Penske and KK snowballing into an offer that Tony can't refuse!!

[Winston Wolfe]

The interesting thing is that it's Penske who commented that the engine manufacturers might be in a position to force some kind of common spec. Why would he bail George out with engines with no compromise if that's what he really believes should happen?

nice one, Boss...

I, too, believe that Penske ending up with Illmor is not an accident. Rather, it is a calculated effort by Roger to secure the only other real engine builder of note that could help ensure HIS cars are out front. Roger has always "bent" the rules, the unfair advantage, and always manages to stay ahead of others in many of business enterprises. Yeah, he pissed me off leaving CART for dead and taking TRD into the EARL, but ol Rog dont screw up too many deals.

I think this one plays out quite a bit.... there's alot more going on that we can see here.

[Jag_Warrior]

Has Porsche ever badged someone else's racing engine? I dunno... I'm asking.

[Ankf00]

Has Porsche ever badged someone else's racing engine? I dunno... I'm asking.

they started badging cars for GA, why stop at engines?

[pchall]

they started badging cars for GA, why stop at engines?

Didn't Porsche tell Grand Sham to stop putting Boxster style headlights on cars that just happened to use an ancient flat six to shove them around?

[trauma1]

ftg will get menard to build his famous hand grenade engine that r gordon uses and blows up every week, of fast eddies mechachrome, i don't see FRP building engines for ftg

[Sean O'Gorman]

Didn't Porsche tell Grand Sham to stop putting Boxster style headlights on cars that just happened to use an ancient flat six to shove them around?

http://www.grandamerican.com/CONTENT/Photos/Gallery/2005/05WGIjunFRR800-06.jpg

http://content2.us.porsche.com/prod/911/911_common.nsf/Resources/c_gallery_exterior03/$file/stg_3.jpg

[FanofMario]

I think Roger Penske holds the key to bringing this festering mess to a merciful end. He wants to be the savior of the Indianapolis 500, IMHO, and knows his last few wins there are tainted and meaningless. But if he can force an end to the IRL madness and return the once great race to it's status as the Greatest, he will then be hailed again as the Ferrari of NA racing and become more than just a legend in his own mind. I think we may see some interesting movement very soon with meetings between Penske and KK snowballing into an offer that Tony can't refuse!!

Agreed. 10 years of decline is enough. Roger's ego might be the ticket to end it and then I will have Penske to root against again!

[Ankf00]

Didn't Porsche tell Grand Sham to stop putting Boxster style headlights on cars that just happened to use an ancient flat six to shove them around?

I recall reading something that they were pissed about it but I guess they were powerless to do anything if the cars are stll around

[Insomniac]

That's what I said about CART, and ended up writing a check for $100 because I was wrong. Tony will write checks like Pook did and like Kalkoven is to make a full field (18) happen.

It will be interesting to see who Penske ends up bringing, although Porche sounds outright wacky, I could see him structure a deal where they badge them, but Tony puts up the money an extension of his ALMS deal. Would that satisfy Honda? Who would satisfy Honda?

Also as someone else has pointed out, since the traditional manufacturers are just represented in the "badging" process, I wouldn't be surprised to see an engine badged by Bombardier or even an non engine entity.

You did see how fast CART burned through $100M, right?

[Insomniac]

The interesting thing is that it's Penske who commented that the engine manufacturers might be in a position to force some kind of common spec. Why would he bail George out with engines with no compromise if that's what he really believes should happen?

$$$. It RP we're talking about.

[NismoZ]

Oh, yes, Penske is still the major player, here, closely followed by Honda. Penske is announced as the Porsche P2 team then Honda soon follows with similar plans. Do you NOT believe Honda wants the competition? If they can't get it in the IRL they'll go to ALMS. Neither one of those two are going to GA, that's for sure. Let Chippie play with that one. Most here have already guessed who would head the Honda team. Fine, I say. I LOVE sportscar racing, and would be properly excited to see Porsche, Audi (R10?) and Honda mix things up at Road America. That'd be the next best thing after losing ChampCar for this fan. Racing has always morphed and 12 years is actually a long time to be at status quo. Sure was fun watching Mark Donohue move from Trans Am to Can Am to Indy Cars and F-5000...then CART is born, ChampCar etc. I'll watch GA but an expanded more lively ALMS would please the CRAP out of me...IF this open wheel crisis is not soon resolved.

[Brickman]

You did see how fast CART burned through $100M, right?

Yea and Kalkoven is doing the same thing to a lesser extent. Propping up teams is around to stay unless you have manufacturer teet support.

I agree that the answer is in the 90's would have been manufacturers putting the squeeze on both series to have the same engine, the closest you got to that was Toyota stating that they would be in both series IF the engines were common.

But in the here and now it's either going to be a common engine with Kalkoven and Penske doing it. The Chevyworth becoming a Ford, and the Honda/Ilmor becoming a Chevy.

Or the IRL doing their best to keep Honda in the mix by coming up with a more cost effective package that gives them the opportunity to even throw some money at teams. Badging Penske's engine with Porche or a name Honda can live with.

I'm still waitng to hear about the Autoweek blurb that Mark is reporting "AutoWeek reports that Tony George made an offer to Kevin Kalkhoven, and Kalkhoven apparently is still considering it. Champ Car sources say series owners met with IRL president Tony George at Mario Andretti's home in Pennsylvania in early May. George initially agreed to common equipment, but the IMS board rejected the idea shortly thereafter, according to the same sources says AutoWeek".

[Insomniac]

Yea and Kalkoven is doing the same thing to a lesser extent. Propping up teams is around to stay unless you have manufacturer teet support.

A much lesser extent. I don't thing the two are mutually exclusive. ChampCar has reduced the costs of running a team significantly (last I heard was <$5M a car (or team?) for a full season). Someone please correct me if I am wrong. They have dropped almost every venue that had poor attendance. It's tken some time, but they got it to this point right now. I would expect the IRL to face similar consequences, with the unfortunate side effect that the majority of teams have all proven to switch loyalties to whereever the grass is greener.


I agree that the answer is in the 90's would have been manufacturers putting the squeeze on both series to have the same engine, the closest you got to that was Toyota stating that they would be in both series IF the engines were common.

That turned out to be B.S. Toyota said they wouldn't even put there name on it and the ChampCar teams would have to buy them, in effect propping up the IRL program/teams.


But in the here and now it's either going to be a common engine with Kalkoven and Penske doing it. The Chevyworth becoming a Ford, and the Honda/Ilmor becoming a Chevy.

Or the IRL doing their best to keep Honda in the mix by coming up with a more cost effective package that gives them the opportunity to even throw some money at teams. Badging Penske's engine with Porche or a name Honda can live with.

I'm still waitng to hear about the Autoweek blurb that Mark is reporting "AutoWeek reports that Tony George made an offer to Kevin Kalkhoven, and Kalkhoven apparently is still considering it. Champ Car sources say series owners met with IRL president Tony George at Mario Andretti's home in Pennsylvania in early May. George initially agreed to common equipment, but the IMS board rejected the idea shortly thereafter, according to the same sources says AutoWeek".

I don't know what they will do. I wouldn't put too much hope into any type of unification, or even similar cars for 2007. Until TG wants to cooperate, the split/war will continue.

[Rocketdoc]

Tony will write cheques. Someone will cash them. About 100
Internet gomers will think its great. No one else will care.


No truer words said.

[Rocketdoc]

hyundai Tiberon Pace cars (the poor mans ferrari) :gomer:


Rather a destitute man's Pinto....

[Rocketdoc]

The interesting thing is that it's Penske who commented that the engine manufacturers might be in a position to force some kind of common spec. Why would he bail George out with engines with no compromise if that's what he really believes should happen?

I wonder what Roger did with all those 209 pushrod engines that Tony made worthless?

This is a time where Roger Penske could assassinate George for the carnage the idiot played so many years ago.

Unfortunately, Penske is the consummate businessman and money talks, and bullsheet walks.

[coolhand]

I would forgive roger if he seriously screws up the IRL.

Pull his illmores out of the league at the last minute leaving them scrabbling for engines

[Racing Truth]

Yea and Kalkoven is doing the same thing to a lesser extent. Propping up teams is around to stay unless you have manufacturer teet support.

I agree that the answer is in the 90's would have been manufacturers putting the squeeze on both series to have the same engine, the closest you got to that was Toyota stating that they would be in both series IF the engines were common.

But in the here and now it's either going to be a common engine with Kalkoven and Penske doing it. The Chevyworth becoming a Ford, and the Honda/Ilmor becoming a Chevy.

Or the IRL doing their best to keep Honda in the mix by coming up with a more cost effective package that gives them the opportunity to even throw some money at teams. Badging Penske's engine with Porche or a name Honda can live with.

I'm still waitng to hear about the Autoweek blurb that Mark is reporting "AutoWeek reports that Tony George made an offer to Kevin Kalkhoven, and Kalkhoven apparently is still considering it. Champ Car sources say series owners met with IRL president Tony George at Mario Andretti's home in Pennsylvania in early May. George initially agreed to common equipment, but the IMS board rejected the idea shortly thereafter, according to the same sources says AutoWeek".

On the AutoWeek thing, :saywhat: . Sorry, that makes no farkin sense. Not the offer part. The Indy Star reported the same thing. No, its the part about George accepting common specs, but the IMS board rejecting it. Seriously, the rest of the Hulman-George wants this to go on? It makes no sense.

I think nrc is on to something.

[Rocketdoc]

I would forgive roger if he seriously screws up the IRL.

Pull his illmores out of the league at the last minute leaving them scrabbling for engines

I would wish that Roger were to do just that, but again, Roger is THE (at the level of Jack Welch) consummate businessman, and he has either spied that remaining seat when the music stops, or it’s a serendipitous opportunity to get his Illmor guys making money again. I tend toward the latter.

I’ve known Roger Penske since the early sixties (not intimately, or in the Biblical sense) and at one time was going to buy one of his race cars; even my dear daughter works for him, but one thing I’ve learned in all that time; when you’re good for Roger, he’s more than good to you.
He seldom makes business mistakes, other than that stupid Potampkin Cadillac deal in New York City and the K-Mart back door deal that his son phugged up royal (in all honesty, it was a stinking/sinking hole that K-Mark left, but to pour size large money into, to this day, I cannot understand Roger’s logic in going for that stupid deal).

Do I wish that he throws Tony to the wolves? Yeah, probably more than any ill-directed hatred that I’ve experienced.
I’m too old to finally read the place that Tony George will have in American Racing History, but I would venture a guess that it’s as one of the worst kind of malignant cancer the sport has ever experienced.

Everyone knows that Roger looks after Roger first, and if Tony George really is between a rock and a warn turd, Roger could become the future owner of the IMS through a convoluted series of leveraged moves, and would grease the skids for the idiot into the scrapheap of history.

[NismoZ]

Whoa! :eek: ...and all I was hoping for was really fast cars and the best drivers and teams running in full fields on a variety of great tracks in maybe the top open wheel series ANYwhere! :)

[nrc]

The Indy Star reported the same thing. No, its the part about George accepting common specs, but the IMS board rejecting it. Seriously, the rest of the Hulman-George wants this to go on? It makes no sense.

Actually, it might. If all they get is common specs that means that George has to keep pouring money into the IRL to make sure that his side of the split gets enough entries to keep their races outside of Indy going.

So someone may have said, "Common specs isn't enough. Make them a unification offer. " Whether George is capable of eating crow and coming up with one acceptable to KK & GF, I guess we'll see.

[Napoleon]

On the AutoWeek thing, :saywhat: . Sorry, that makes no farkin sense. Not the offer part. The Indy Star reported the same thing. No, its the part about George accepting common specs, but the IMS board rejecting it. Seriously, the rest of the Hulman-George wants this to go on? It makes no sense.

I think nrc is on to something.

I agree with you, it makes no sense at all.

[Andrew Longman]

On the AutoWeek thing, :saywhat: . Sorry, that makes no farkin sense. Not the offer part. The Indy Star reported the same thing. No, its the part about George accepting common specs, but the IMS board rejecting it. Seriously, the rest of the Hulman-George wants this to go on? It makes no sense.

I think nrc is on to something.


Are you saying that the rest of the Hulman-George family is not from the same gene pool as TG? Sounds like a story there. :)

I agree. It either shows that the board has always been about as bizzaro as TG or there is disagreement on how unification would actually shake out. I imagine TG and the board would want 51% control of any resolution. KK will not do that.

If they simply agree on a common spec, I suspect he will have a real car count and competitive issue as most teams and the best teams would likely rin the CCWS schedule plus the I500. It is easier on equipment than running on ovals, the races are better attended, and run in markets that have sponsor possibilities. Add the I500 to the CCWS equation and there is little reason to run the IRL (except the better TV deal, but at this point it hardly matters because the ratings are the same and the teams aren't paying for the time buy anyway).

The board may have seen this and realized that going to a common spec without some sort of unification take away all of TGs leverage, except the I500, which of course is as it should be.