View Full Version : Unification - Tony "not optimistic"
jonovision_man
07-04-05, 12:47 PM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050704/SPORTS01/507040357
"I don't think (reconciliation) is possible for 2006; I don't think it's possible ever," he said at Kansas Speedway.
George confirmed that the stumbling block is Champ Car's desire to share ownership of the IRL, a business his family has owned and operated since 1994. Besides financial considerations, George is reluctant to yield control of Indy-car racing, particularly in lieu of last month's Formula One race at Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
Members of George's staff have said the grand prix fiasco is an example of why he created the IRL in the first place.
Why would CCWS want to own a piece of the IRL? That suggests that rather than a merger they were offering much much more, to consolidate two series under the IRL banner maybe?
:saywhat:
jono
Um... a merger is a consolidation. Cavin was assuming the merged series would be called the Indy Racing League. If they have half a brain, the merged series will be called the Indy Car World Series. Which, of course, was the series name in 1995.
devilmaster
07-04-05, 01:05 PM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050704/SPORTS01/507040357
Why would CCWS want to own a piece of the IRL? That suggests that rather than a merger they were offering much much more, to consolidate two series under the IRL banner maybe?
:saywhat:
jono
Perhaps not. I believe the major stumbling block is Tony's fragile ego. IF there ever was a merger, I feel (and past history supports this) that Tony's ego would need the IRL to continue, just to show that his vision was needed.
That is why, IMO, there will never be a merger. He would dismiss anyone who told him face to face that he made a mistake creating his IRL. He has a classic delusion of grandeur. In the end, its not about ratings, its not about the fans, its not about the money. Its about him being proved wrong - and he feels that can't happen.
TG lives in his own dream world. He's spinning the desire on the part of Champ Car principals to unite the two series in to there desire for partial ownership of the IRL. In realty, there only desire is for the Indianapolis 500 to be part of the Champ Car Series. They may be willing to take other parts of the IRL to get it. Don’t pay any attention to anything TG says.
George
jonovision_man
07-04-05, 01:11 PM
Um... a merger is a consolidation. Cavin was assuming the merged series would be called the Indy Racing League. If they have half a brain, the merged series will be called the Indy Car World Series. Which, of course, was the series name in 1995.
Sounded like he was talking about the organization, not some new merged entity... refered to it as "a business his family has owned and operated since 1994".
At any rate, it sounds like TG is completely unwilling to budge. I'm curious what exactly was offered by CCWS though, how far were they willing to bend??
I'm pretty bummed, I briefly thought there was a possibility here, with Clarke getting involved and the IRL's engine woes.
jono
chop456
07-04-05, 01:20 PM
"Members of George's staff have said the grand prix fiasco is an example of why he created the IRL in the first place."
Which also allows the twit to do things like not publish the rule book, so it can be changed around to allow things like, oh, I don't know, Danica not being penalized for fueling the car in closed pits during the 500.
Handy what you can do when 'yer dishonest, high, and stupid, ain't it? :gomer:
Since this is about Tony's delusions about what Champ car wants with no real Champ car content it belongs in the Others forum. Please try to keep Tony's coke addled meanderings where they belong.
Why does the unification talk always seem to be coming from the IRL side?
jonovision_man
07-04-05, 01:32 PM
Since this is about Tony's delusions about what Champ car wants with no real Champ car content it belongs in the Others forum. Please try to keep Tony's coke addled meanderings where they belong.
In my defence, the part I bolded was a comment specifically about what Champ Car had offered. And clearly unification (or lack of) impacts Champ Car.
jono
No freaking merger. :thumdown:
I'm disappointed that KK is even discussing anything with FTG.
Sean O'Gorman
07-04-05, 02:25 PM
We should have a rule that there is no unification talk until the IRL finally gets into the situation where they can't fill out their fields.
"Members of George's staff have said the grand prix fiasco is an example of why he created the IRL in the first place."
This is just a weak excuse the gomers have found to comfort themselves as they face the ruin they've brought to the sport they claimed to be out to save. There's nothing about ownership of the IRL that could prevent a supplier like Honda or Bridgestone from pulling the exact same kind of thing.
But beyond that, there's the fact that they don't insist on control over biggest event at the speedway: the Allstate 400.
Beyond all of that, the notion that the ultimate result of any unification should be called "IRL" reflects just how parochial the thinking in Speedway is. Any successful unification is going to have to be presented to the world as a new, combined entity. Declaring that one side has surrendered or bought into the other will leave half the fans feeling abandoned and betrayed.
We should have a rule that there is no unification talk until the IRL finally gets into the situation where they can't fill out their fields.
Which may be sooner than later.
I think I agree with TG. CART's TMS debacle and this year's USGP show that it's quite a risk for a track owner to host a race that they don't control. So what needs to happen is the formation of the Richmond Racing League, The Kansas Racing League, The Kentucky Racing League, etc. It's the only way to make track owners feel safe.
extramundane
07-04-05, 02:58 PM
We should have a rule that there is no unification talk until the IRL finally gets into the situation where they can't fill out their fields.
Define "filling out" their fields. Is 22 really that much more "filled out" than 18, considering how many cars used to show up not that long ago?
Sean O'Gorman
07-04-05, 02:59 PM
"Filling out" as in meeting contractual obligations.
coolhand
07-04-05, 03:18 PM
"Members of George's staff have said the grand prix fiasco is an example of why he created the IRL in the first place."
this is my theory. TG is as insecure as all get out, and need the confirmation of the people around him that he is doing the right thing. I think that there are people around him who have alot to loose in a merger (there jobs) and they say things like above to convince him that a merger is a bad thing. TG does not think independantly. He would not have started the split if it was not for people around him saying it was the right thing to do.
Insomniac
07-04-05, 04:19 PM
Clearly TG still thinks he has everything and ChampCar has nothing. He is therefore unwilling to cede anything to allow a merger to happen.
jonovision_man
07-04-05, 04:53 PM
Clearly TG still thinks he has everything and ChampCar has nothing. He is therefore unwilling to cede anything to allow a merger to happen.
True, but the "waiting for CART to die" strategy hasn't exactly paid off... even when CART died, CCWS lives, and will as long as KK is willing. At least 5 years if you believe the guy will see out his 5-year plan.
jono
GOFAST1
07-04-05, 04:57 PM
No unification? Great news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Insomniac
07-04-05, 05:24 PM
True, but the "waiting for CART to die" strategy hasn't exactly paid off... even when CART died, CCWS lives, and will as long as KK is willing. At least 5 years if you believe the guy will see out his 5-year plan.
jono
I never said the strategy would pay off. :) Unification would be nice. CCWS can go on forever in it's current form and the IRL can go on forever with the Brickyard 400. TG is the only reason there is and won't be unification. He doesn't want it to happen regardless of his excuses/reasons. All this talk is pointless until the words "we need to unify" or "I want to unify" come out of his mouth. Mario, Honda and RP can go on and on. Their time would be better spent convincing the inheritor. No one else needs convincing and the CCWS side isn't going to roll over and die.
Brickman
07-04-05, 05:33 PM
We should have a rule that there is no unification talk until the IRL finally gets into the situation where they can't fill out their fields.
That's about it. IMO
But as Robin Miller reported on Wind Tunnel it looks like Honda will be IRLing in 2007.
If that's the case, I think that TG will get his field filled, and if the spec is more affordable, they will get Penske to badge another engine.
Now as to the Champ Car side, I can guess that KK wants to negotiate from their strengths and the IRL's weakness. But I don't think he has the strength in fully funded teams, or mouth watering venues (except LB). IF he sees the departure of Toyota and maybe Honda as a collapse, he will stick to his 50% control, but if Honda stays on board, it will lesson the terms for a joint series.
Time will tell...
devilmaster
07-04-05, 05:34 PM
I think the term we're all looking for, that describes TG's attitude in this is:
MEGALOMANIA
Main Entry: meg·a·lo·ma·nia
Pronunciation: "me-g&-lO-'mA-nE-&, -ny&
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin
1 : a mania for great or grandiose performance
2 : a delusional mental disorder that is marked by infantile feelings of personal omnipotence and grandeur
From mirriam-webster's
jonovision_man
07-04-05, 05:34 PM
I never said the strategy would pay off. :) Unification would be nice. CCWS can go on forever in it's current form and the IRL can go on forever with the Brickyard 400. TG is the only reason there is and won't be unification. He doesn't want it to happen regardless of his excuses/reasons. All this talk is pointless until the words "we need to unify" or "I want to unify" come out of his mouth. Mario, Honda and RP can go on and on. Their time would be better spent convincing the inheritor. No one else needs convincing and the CCWS side isn't going to roll over and die.
I'm definately pro-unification, but not very optimistic about it. I was hoping the departure of Chevy and Toyota would force TG's hand, but seems he's willing to toss even more money fighting the fight.
Frankly, neither series is doing very well financially, where a unified series could probably do exceedingly well. I don't think engine manufacturers would be an issue, neither would field size, and 33 would be a no-brainer. Enough sponsors to go around, and the best events of each series would make a solid and largely profitable schedule.
Oh well.
jono
fourrunner
07-04-05, 05:53 PM
Less than a 50/50 split is capitulation ( on either side ), not unification
To Discount the Value of the Canadian Races & the Mexican Races is silly, and the American Street Races are certainly gaining strength !
The Name's CCWS & IRL must be tossed for an equal share of equity to be fair!
I doubt that KK & JF want an equal share of Indy ... Keep it separate like it was in CART ... Give points, don't give points ... who cares!
Call it "Tony Georges Indianapolis 500" who gives a crap!
Champ Car has a Business Plan that makes sense for the future... fighting over anachronism is stupid .. It's like fighting over the Rusting 56 Cadillac on blocks in the weed covered back yard! I want the 21st Century version of Open Wheel ... That's Champ Car, not the IRL !
Eliminate Tony George, and the Problem is solved !
devilmaster
07-04-05, 06:04 PM
Eliminate Tony George, and the Problem is solved !
Hang on, now.... you do that, and they might get someone competant in his place! ;)
But as Robin Miller reported on Wind Tunnel it looks like Honda will be IRLing in 2007.
I think you might be overstating Honda's position.
"It's not my decision, that's what we're discussing internally, but my feeling is that we need to stay -- regardless of the scenario," said Clarke, whose engines have powered the last two Indianapolis 500 winners, last year's IRL champion and 18 of the past 23 race winners in Tony George's series.
link (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/17979/)
Don't you remember Clarke's 'We're not going to the IRL' pronouncement a few years ago? I don't think Clarke's opinion really matters that much.
coolhand
07-04-05, 06:24 PM
But as Robin Miller reported on Wind Tunnel it looks like Honda will be IRLing in 2007.
clarke made his position clear about the terms in which honda would stay in the IRL. then when the situtation became clearer he discretely sent the letter of resignation to the IRL.
Now he is trying to down play it saying he will stay blah blah blah like he did when he was about to bail out of CART.
Actions speak louder than words
Frankly, neither series is doing very well financially, where a unified series could probably do exceedingly well.
You've been hanging out with wilke and indycool too much. None of us has any idea about the finances of either company, or any of the teams for that matter.
coolhand
07-04-05, 06:34 PM
You've been hanging out with wilke and indycool too much. None of us has any idea about the finances of either company, or any of the teams for that matter.
according to indycool the amigos have spent a "gazillion" dollors on champ car. gald he is on top of it
jonovision_man
07-04-05, 06:35 PM
You've been hanging out with wilke and indycool too much. None of us has any idea about the finances of either company, or any of the teams for that matter.
For the record, I mostly argue with them... :)
We don't know the exact dollars and cents, but we can make reasonable guestimates about the overall health of the series based on sponsorship, attendance, ratings. We know what things cost CART (for example, TV time-buys).
The IRL can't be doing well, especially with the looming financial hole when Toyota & Chevy pull out. And even if Honda does stay, they're competing against nobody, they'd be guaranteed to win every race and the championship before they turn a wheel. What's the motivation to pour money into AGR, for example?
One series could be so much better. Take the top dozen teams from each, the top 8-10 venues from each, and you'd have a financially viable series.
jono
Sean O'Gorman
07-04-05, 06:38 PM
At the very least, a unified series would mean a dramatic reduction in the number of cars that would be series-funded, leaving the powers that run the series to spend more money on propping up unprofitable events and TV time buys. :shakehead
coolhand
07-04-05, 06:44 PM
At the very least, a unified series would mean a dramatic reduction in the number of cars that would be series-funded, leaving the powers that run the series to spend more money on propping up unprofitable events and TV time buys. :shakehead
yep, and no more problems with car counts
jonovision_man
07-04-05, 07:02 PM
At the very least, a unified series would mean a dramatic reduction in the number of cars that would be series-funded, leaving the powers that run the series to spend more money on propping up unprofitable events and TV time buys. :shakehead
The IRL already has their ABC deal, I'd assume a unified series would either inherit it or do even better.
As for unprofitable events, if you dropped the bottom half of each series' races there wouldn't be many left, and the top half would more than compensate for it.
All a dream for now. :(
jono
For the record, I mostly argue with them... :)
We don't know the exact dollars and cents, but we can make reasonable guestimates about the overall health of the series based on sponsorship, attendance, ratings. We know what things cost CART (for example, TV time-buys).
Do we? Or do we know what they cost in the past and you're just making assumptions that the costs are the same now?
Chris Pook was playing with an open hand and under a different set of rules. Forsythe and Kalkhoven have shown that the rules are different now that the deals are secret and they're bringing their connections to the table. Assuming that Champ car's economics are identical CART's is a mistake.
Sean O'Gorman
07-04-05, 07:23 PM
Chris Pook was playing with an open hand and under a different set of rules. Forsythe and Kalkhoven have shown that the rules are different now that the deals are secret and they're bringing their connections to the table. Assuming that Champ car's economics are identical CART's is a mistake.
True, but there are still things that we can assume are costing money because the situation hasn't changed since 2003. Cars are still being subsidized, several races are being self-promoted at a loss (for the short term, hopefully), TV is still a time buy with very little in the way of commercial revenue (my dad's company bought ad time for the Cleveland GP and he said it was ridiculously cheap), etc. Hopefully the losses are being brought to a more manageable level, and they really will be into the black by the end of '05 as Kalkhoven speculated. Then they can come back to MO and RA. :)
jonovision_man
07-04-05, 07:33 PM
Do we? Or do we know what they cost in the past and you're just making assumptions that the costs are the same now?
Chris Pook was playing with an open hand and under a different set of rules. Forsythe and Kalkhoven have shown that the rules are different now that the deals are secret and they're bringing their connections to the table. Assuming that Champ car's economics are identical CART's is a mistake.
Sure, there's some assumptions and guesswork, otherwise there wouldn't be any debate. Not identical, no, but we can at least figure out the ballpark.
CART was probably much worse, as you say, there didn't seem to be much restraint. The team assistance was accross-the-board, for instance, rather than targetted to the teams that absolutely needed it. Like you said, with the transparency it would have been tough to negotiate one-off deals without other teams crying foul, but it's more possible now.
jono
oddlycalm
07-04-05, 08:45 PM
One series could be so much better. Take the top dozen teams from each, the top 8-10 venues from each, and you'd have a financially viable series. There's only one guy that doesn't get it. Until he does your wasting your time preaching to the choir.
oc
News at 9:
tony "on powder"
fourrunner
07-04-05, 11:02 PM
Fortunately, or unfortunately, the regular rules of business concerning profit & loss, mean nothing in "this" world ... You have two different entities of unlimited means playing high stakes poker ... Making Money for both is down the road if it exists at all ...
Kevin has stated that we'd be surprised how little they spend to keep the series going ... and he could do it forever .
Tony has obviously been playing that game for years now
So we can throw away the calculators on this one
The only difference is that if Kevin & Gerry want Long Beach, they buy Long Beach ... If he needs Engines, he buys Cosworth! I'm sure it won't end there... If Tony George needs Engines, he asks Roger Penske to buy Illmor, If he wants Long Beach, he asks Gannassi to Buy it ... Tony's problem is he needs a third party to do anything ... and that way doesn't always succeed.. further he needs the third party to be willing to lose money forever if necessary .... It's easier and more realistic to use that method, if your by yourself!
devilmaster
07-05-05, 01:56 AM
Sure, there's some assumptions and guesswork, otherwise there wouldn't be any debate. Not identical, no, but we can at least figure out the ballpark.
CART was probably much worse, as you say, there didn't seem to be much restraint. The team assistance was accross-the-board, for instance, rather than targetted to the teams that absolutely needed it. Like you said, with the transparency it would have been tough to negotiate one-off deals without other teams crying foul, but it's more possible now.
jono
Jono - if you can't prove how much both series are spending now, IMO you can't say that a combined series will be viable. Because i have never known what TG has wasted on his league (and indycool, if yer reading this, and you think KK has spent a gazillion dollars, then TG has spent 100 trillion gazillion dollars.... see how stupid that sounds? Don't be dumb. :gomer: )
Since nobody has intimate knowledge of either of the books and is willing to share it, and if one assumes both series are in the red, one should also assume that a merger won't automatically make it better.
In the end, this debate really is academic. The truth sucks - and the truth is Tony is a megalomaniac with a large inheritance who thinks he must control open wheel. And I believe, if he can't control it, he'll destroy it first. And until he is out of the OW landscape, there is no point debating a merger or anything like that. He'll buy CC or two series will exist. It sucks, it blows, and nobody feels better in the morning.
And to anyone who gives money to his races or events, use that money to buy a hooker instead. At least you'll feel like you got something in return.
pedroskova
07-05-05, 12:38 PM
For the record, I mostly argue with them... :)
One series could be so much better. Take the top dozen teams from each, the top 8-10 venues from each, and you'd have a financially viable series.
jono
There aren't 3-6 CC venues that I'd want to lose, and there sure as **** ain't 8-10 EARL venues that I'd like to see added...and the thought of Capt' Liverspots, Ganassi, Rahal, and Whiney... :saywhat:
no merger, no way
cameraman
07-05-05, 12:41 PM
There aren't 3-6 CC venues that I'd want to lose, and there sure as **** ain't 8-10 EARL venues that I'd like to see added...and the thought of Capt' Liverspots, Ganassi, Rahal, and Whiney... :saywhat:
no merger, no way
Exactly.
But as Robin Miller reported on Wind Tunnel it looks like Honda will be IRLing in 2007....
Hunda just doesn't want me to buy their products anymore, and I don't.
Racing Truth
07-05-05, 04:08 PM
I think I agree with TG. CART's TMS debacle and this year's USGP show that it's quite a risk for a track owner to host a race that they don't control. So what needs to happen is the formation of the Richmond Racing League, The Kansas Racing League, The Kentucky Racing League, etc. It's the only way to make track owners feel safe.
:laugh: That's classic.
In terms of the topic, I think I'll finally agree with Sean and cart7. I'm done with this "non-topic", except to say, TG really thinks he can dictate everything? :saywhat: :shakehead :mad:
Racing Truth
07-05-05, 04:12 PM
Oh h=ll, one more thought.
At the very least, a unified series would mean a dramatic reduction in the number of cars that would be series-funded, leaving the powers that run the series to spend more money on propping up unprofitable events and TV time buys. :shakehead
True, not to mention not being obsessed (esp. Tony vis-a-vis ChampCar) with killing each other. The best thing KK and GF can do is pretend the IRL doesn't exist. If that means barring, officially, CC teams from Indy, so be it.
jonovision_man
07-05-05, 05:26 PM
True, not to mention not being obsessed (esp. Tony vis-a-vis ChampCar) with killing each other. The best thing KK and GF can do is pretend the IRL doesn't exist.
Well, this is really the last unification gasp... if the IRL and CCWS come up with separate specs for 2007 and beyond, that's the last "nail in the coffin" (so to speak) for a single series.
And IMO that's a damn shame, I would love to see everyone back under one tent. I think US OW has a lot of potential that neither series will realize as long as they run stubbornly in their own direction.
jono
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