More IRL merger talk

[nrc]

In their desperation for a merger, the IRL continues to sew unification stories. It's pretty obvious that Fred Nation is making the rounds to get the IRL talking points out.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050707.wxwhindy07/BNStory/specialGlobeAuto/



Champ Car's plan allows no real role for George in the new series apart from running the Indy 500 and giving up 50-per-cent control of the family business. With that idea unacceptable, George and his negotiators put a counterproposal on the table about three weeks ago but have not had any response.

The main points of the IRL offer are a 50-50 split of oval and road/street course events, more international events, provisions for the IRL to help out a number of Champ Car teams financially, and the creation of an advisory committee made up of stakeholders and headed by Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven. Sharing ownership of the new series was not included.

So nothing has really changed other than the IRL's realization that they're going to be spending a lot of money to keep their series afloat if they don't work something out. Their "offer" amounts to throwing a few bucks in the pot and picking up some races that they'd dearly love to have anyway. It's laughable and we can only hope the reason they haven't gotten a response is that KK assumed that it was some kind of joke.

[cameraman]

The main points of the IRL offer are a 50-50 split of oval and road/street course events, more international events, provisions for the IRL to help out a number of Champ Car teams financially, and the creation of an advisory committee made up of stakeholders and headed by Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven. Sharing ownership of the new series was not included. So Tony George expects to get 100% ownership of Champ Car in a merger? I suppose it would help if Tony George actually knew what the term merger meant.

[coolhand]

So Tony George expects to get 100% ownership of Champ Car in a merger? I suppose it would help if Tony George actually knew what the term merger meant.

KK would never agree to handing over his stake. TG thinks he is negotiating with a bucket of bolts or something. "advisory comitee chair" is meaningless without any ownership stake

[jcollins28]

So Tony George expects to get 100% ownership of Champ Car in a merger? I suppose it would help if Tony George actually knew what the term merger meant.


Sounds to me like Tony is still hitting the Boogar Sugar.

[oddlycalm]

So nothing has really changed other than the IRL's realization that they're going to be spending a lot of money to keep their series afloat if they don't work something out. Their "offer" amounts to throwing a few bucks in the pot and picking up some races that they'd dearly love to have anyway. It's laughable and we can only hope the reason they haven't gotten a response is that KK assumed that it was some kind of joke. Good summary, I can't think of a thing to as I smile to myself and look forward to watching the cracks in the concrete get ever larger until that dumbass falls in.... ;)

oc

[Brickman]

In their desperation for a merger, the IRL continues to sew unification stories. It's pretty obvious that Fred Nation is making the rounds to get the IRL talking points out.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050707.wxwhindy07/BNStory/specialGlobeAuto/


So nothing has really changed other than the IRL's realization that they're going to be spending a lot of money to keep their series afloat if they don't work something out. Their "offer" amounts to throwing a few bucks in the pot and picking up some races that they'd dearly love to have anyway. It's laughable and we can only hope the reason they haven't gotten a response is that KK assumed that it was some kind of joke.

Well...

Mind you, Kalkoven isn't in this for mere loyalty to Champ Car, he's in it to turn a buck, and just as Pook found out... things might not be as Rosy as he thought they were, I think Kalkoven is in a leaking boat. I think the IRL will be 50% in a leaking boat after Toyota leaves. It's been pointed out how many Champ Car teams are Phony Baloney teams with no real sponsors, lawn mower engines and Chinese cities... The fully funded teams are few.

The IRL teams aren't really heavily sponsored by Jim Beam, Argent Mortgage, XM Radio etc, they are just fronts for Honda and Toyota. Appropriately both TG and KK have their own teams, nothing like playing with what you are paying for.

So now you have to guys with similar boats. Some races do good, some don't. Some are on good tracks, some would be ditched in a moment if they could.

George has Indy, and wants to keep that institution on track, (regardless of anyones opinion of it) Kevin has no such passion, he bought Champ Car as an investment. If you think he's only in it because he believes in turbos read no further. He wants to make money, not just have an expensive hobby.

I think this whole situation may come down making money. In a unified series there would be two promoters Champ Car gets promotion rights and a flow of money from their selected races, TG gets the same, Kevin gets income from Cosworth and guaranteed participation in engine rules, if either side drops a race from their combined schedule, they can add another, or let the other add one if they pass. Kevin derives income from promoting, and building engines, and loses the overhead of running a series. If you think there is money to be made in Champ Car, run! don't walk! run! away from this proposal.

If Kalkoven thinks just that he will. I'm sure he hasn't been out buying running shoes these past three weeks. Only he and his accountant know how red or how black the books are.


In a unified series toughest part is who is responsible for what amount of cars, or should anybody be. Kalkoven is feeding his car owners and himself dollars to run cars, because REAL sponsorships just aren't there. The same will happen to Tony if both Toyota and Honda leave, it's back to writing checks. It's not "Team GREEN" for nothing, and after Honda leaves (if they decide to do so) a Big Gulp won't cut it running that team.

Two men, two boats, writing checks to stay afloat.

Come up with a combined series, sharing costs and revenues, and the businessman that can promote better, will make more money, and feed their part of the series less, they will slowly take over the other's assigned venues, making themselves more money.

Reasons why the IRL should make a deal:

When CART lost Toyota/Honda after 2002, Pook had to scramble and pay out a lot of money because the major sponsors, "the manufacturers" left, gone was Ganassi (2) gone was Green (2) gone was Penske in 01' (2) gone was Rahal (2) gone was Fernandez (2).

Those same teams now have 16 starters in the Indy Racing League, each and everyone's main sponsorship dollars are tied to Toyota and Honda.

So if the manufacturer's dollars (yen) is not replaced in the IRL Tony could lose between 50% to 100% of the cars listed above. Honda's continued participation is the only bad/good news. It fuzzies up the picture, or may lead to a unified series with turbos for everyone.

Reasons why Kalkoven should make a deal:

From the onset he wasn't going to promote, and that's all they do, he wasn't going to lose money, but that's all they do. The 2007 specs is a pipedream, he has teams that can't afford the development and cost of new chassis, I doubt he would want to absorb the cost of a new engine program too. Buying Cosworth was brilliant, looking overseas for short term, is abandoning fans longer term isn't, because IF Tony weathers his storm he will continue to move into those traditional markets. Instead of the IRL having a 2 to 1 advantage on natural road courses, it could easily grow.

A decent schedule from a combination of the two series wouldn't be hard. They want to keep the ones that make them money and ditch the ones that don't.

Of course all this will probably go for not, and nothing will happen until the next "crisis" in open wheel. Probably NASCAR taking over Canada that Franky keeps pointing out. ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

I thought they weren't going to talk about what was being discussed behind closed doors? I thought the IRL had enough Plan B's lined up that they weren't worried about 2007? I thought Honda's withdrawal was just a formality and they were really going to come back and supply the entire field? I thought old lady Hulman was sewing a cape for Danica and she was going to bring GM back in with her superhero powers? I thought... I thought... I thought... :gomer:

I actually think someone's nads are in a vise and that someone is beginning to seem desperate. If you're in a position of power in a negotiation, you can keep your mouth shut. So why is Tony's boy talking? I think Kalkhoven has the money and the ego to slay the dragon... if for no other reason than just to show that he can do it.

I think Tony should get Ned Beatty on the phone and start practicing ASAP.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6305558159.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[SteveH]

George has Indy, and wants to keep that institution on track, (regardless of anyones opinion of it) Kevin has no such passion, he bought Champ Car as an investment. If you think he's only in it because he believes in turbos read no further. He wants to make money, not just have an expensive hobby.

The fact that KK wants to make money should be no surprise to anyone. Then why does 16th Georgetown Road think he, GF and PG will be willing to walk away from their investment after only a little over one year of ownership? I know you can't answer that question, Brickman but it boggles my mind to think that the owners of Champ Car should just throw in the towel along with the considerable sum they have paid for it and turn it all over to TG. Possibly the value of several million dollars is lost on TG. The three owners of Champ Car earned the money they invested in Champ Car. TG, not so much.

[coolhand]

George has Indy, and wants to keep that institution on track, (regardless of anyones opinion of it)

i have read this a couple of times and have decided its wrong on many levels.

Tony probably thinks that too.

when it turns into a vintage race with 25k in the stands will he still say he doesn't care what anyone thinks about it?

[nrc]

Mind you, Kalkoven isn't in this for mere loyalty to Champ Car, he's in it to turn a buck, and just as Pook found out... things might not be as Rosy as he thought they were, I think Kalkoven is in a leaking boat.
...
George has Indy, and wants to keep that institution on track, (regardless of anyones opinion of it) Kevin has no such passion, he bought Champ Car as an investment. If you think he's only in it because he believes in turbos read no further. He wants to make money, not just have an expensive hobby.

I think those who think KK is in it purely to make money are misreading or underestimating the man. There are a lot faster and more effective ways to turn a buck than turning around Champ car.

And of course, all of this is forgetting that KK is only part of the team running Champ car. The accountants over at Track Forum have been predicting that Forsythe would get tired of spending money ever since he started buying CART stock.


From the onset he wasn't going to promote, and that's all they do, he wasn't going to lose money, but that's all they do.
Implying that they thought that they weren't going to lose money going into this is just pure nonsense. Do you think Fosythe and Kalkhoven can't read a balance sheet? Are we supposed to believe that they thought Champ car's problems were going ot evaporate? That's just an idiotic statement.

[Brickman]

I think those who think KK is in it purely to make money are misreading or underestimating the man. There are a lot faster and more effective ways to turn a buck than turning around Champ car.

And of course, all of this is forgetting that KK is only part of the team running Champ car. The accountants over at Track Forum have been predicting that Forsythe would get tired of spending money ever since he started buying CART stock.


Implying that they thought that they weren't going to lose money going into this is just pure nonsense. Do you think Fosythe and Kalkhoven can't read a balance sheet? Are we supposed to believe that they thought Champ car's problems were going ot evaporate? That's just an idiotic statement.

No I think he thought that the problem was easier to fix than not, it was one of the amigos who repeatedly would comment that they weren't in the promoting business, they also said they weren't in the business of losing money 'we’re braced and planned with a budget that will have a deficit for 04. We also know what we have to manage in the equation to change that for 05 and 06. The succinct part of this is, did we buy it as enthusiasts to lose money? None of us, I can say, like to lose money, nor did we get to buy a fancy car because we lost money all the time, we know how to make money and have a plan here that takes us in that direction." But it is my opinion that although they aren't shy of investing in the series (Cosworth/Long Beach) they are less than excited about paying to run teams and lose money on races.

I think they have had a chance to run the business for two years and the opportunity is riper to solve the problems and unify open wheel. Not making the investment Champ Car, but sliding it over on managing their portfolio of races.

If they do they do, if they don't they don't.

[Brickman]

The fact that KK wants to make money should be no surprise to anyone. Then why does 16th Georgetown Road think he, GF and PG will be willing to walk away from their investment after only a little over one year of ownership? I know you can't answer that question, Brickman but it boggles my mind to think that the owners of Champ Car should just throw in the towel along with the considerable sum they have paid for it and turn it all over to TG. Possibly the value of several million dollars is lost on TG. The three owners of Champ Car earned the money they invested in Champ Car. TG, not so much.

I never said throw in the towel, I don't think they should take money and leave, I just think they should use their assets and make Tony pay them over the next ten or twenty years. Basically running the series with the teams they have, tracks they have, engines they have, and losing the overhead, losing the negative cash flow.

[Chief]

I never said throw in the towel, I don't think they should take money and leave, I just think they should use their assets and make Tony pay them over the next ten or twenty years. Basically running the series with the teams they have, tracks they have, engines they have, and losing the overhead, losing the negative cash flow.

Barring the comments made by then partner Carl Russo that they would build it up and sell it to TG after a few years (Russo is not a partner anymore), they (Amigos) are dug in investment wise and unless TG bends or breaks all these overtures are just dust in the wind. Frankly I'm sick of the rhetoric and could care less what happens to the IRL or the Indy 500. I've seen too much of this dangle the carrot crap to care anymore. You know, we've been through these wars over and over and the word is out....the IRL sucks and it's management and vision(s) are just that, a sick dream by a demented self-centered soul. NEVER have I heard 16th and Georgetown appeal to the fans THEY alienated. They've lost any angle on that and their time has run out.

[Brickman]

Barring the comments made by then partner Carl Russo that they would build it up and sell it to TG after a few years (Russo is not a partner anymore), they (Amigos) are dug in investment wise and unless TG bends or breaks all these overtures are just dust in the wind. Frankly I'm sick of the rhetoric and could care less what happens to the IRL or the Indy 500. I've seen too much of this dangle the carrot crap to care anymore. You know, we've been through these wars over and over and the word is out....the IRL sucks and it's management and vision(s) are just that, a sick dream by a demented self-centered soul. NEVER have I heard 16th and Georgetown appeal to the fans THEY alienated. They've lost any angle on that and their time has run out.

No doubt Russo had a clue to what the original intensions were. I agree that "THEY" alienated the fans. That's why a checkbook is never the answer to unification. I'm not sure about the "sick dream by a demented self-centered soul". I'm sure Kmart founder Sebastian Kresge would have had the same words for Sam Walton, but in reality, someone starting a new competeing business sucks, especially when it's not warrented. Sometimes in sports business there is a merger (NFL/AFL - NBA/ABA) because most of the time the new one fails, the WFL, XFL, USFL, for examples. Tony wanted control, and he got what he wanted, but he also got more than he wanted.

As to your comments about the Indy 500, I believe that Champ Car can survive without the 500, but I doubt open wheel can without the 500. I don't think "their time has run out" as you do. They only have to emulate what CART did, spec engines and writing checks, god knows they did it before.

[indyfan31]

Well...

Mind you, Kalkoven isn't in this for mere loyalty to Champ Car, he's in it to turn a buck, and just as Pook found out... things might not be as Rosy as he thought they were...

Brick, I saw you posted this same info elsewhere. KK & Co. bought CART in BANKRUPTCY court. How "rosy" a picture could he possibly have gotten from that? I'm pretty sure he knew what he was getting into before tossing a few million of dollars at it.

[Brickman]

Brick, I saw you posted this same info elsewhere. KK & Co. bought CART in BANKRUPTCY court. How "rosy" a picture could he possibly have gotten from that? I'm pretty sure he knew what he was getting into before tossing a few million of dollars at it.

Everyone always thinks the other guy screwed up and that you could do better. But I shouldn't have used "Rosy", it was a simplistic term to express confidence that it would be easier rather then insurmountable.

Like KK said "The long-term belief is that open-wheel racing in the Americas and around other parts of the world can be an economic and viable product, particularly as the economy improves. This is not OPM, Other People’s Money, this is our own personal commitment to make this work.'

He's an investor, he likes to invest in the product, with his own money.

Yet they are talking with the IRL. Why? Just not to look like the bad guy keeping unification from happening? I think he sees the propping up of teams less like an investment, more like an expense. Whereas Cosworth and Long Beach as something tangible.

[cameraman]

Yet they are talking with the IRL. Why?

Because if by some miracle FTG actually agreed to a sane merger it would make it a whole lot easier to turn that profit.

Problem is there was no sanity in FTG's proposal.

So KK continues on as before.

[nrc]

No I think he thought that the problem was easier to fix than not, it was one of the amigos who repeatedly would comment that they weren't in the promoting business, they also said they weren't in the business of losing money You're trying to spin statements that Champ car is a viable product and that they don't expect to lose money forever to imply that they didn't expect to be losing money at this stage. That flies in the face Kalkhoven's comments that they're comfortable with their progress and ahead of schedule.

[Insomniac]

Well...

Mind you, Kalkoven isn't in this for mere loyalty to Champ Car, he's in it to turn a buck, and just as Pook found out... things might not be as Rosy as he thought they were, I think Kalkoven is in a leaking boat. I think the IRL will be 50% in a leaking boat after Toyota leaves. It's been pointed out how many Champ Car teams are Phony Baloney teams with no real sponsors, lawn mower engines and Chinese cities... The fully funded teams are few.

The IRL teams aren't really heavily sponsored by Jim Beam, Argent Mortgage, XM Radio etc, they are just fronts for Honda and Toyota. Appropriately both TG and KK have their own teams, nothing like playing with what you are paying for.

So now you have to guys with similar boats. Some races do good, some don't. Some are on good tracks, some would be ditched in a moment if they could.

George has Indy, and wants to keep that institution on track, (regardless of anyones opinion of it) Kevin has no such passion, he bought Champ Car as an investment. If you think he's only in it because he believes in turbos read no further. He wants to make money, not just have an expensive hobby.

I think this whole situation may come down making money. In a unified series there would be two promoters Champ Car gets promotion rights and a flow of money from their selected races, TG gets the same, Kevin gets income from Cosworth and guaranteed participation in engine rules, if either side drops a race from their combined schedule, they can add another, or let the other add one if they pass. Kevin derives income from promoting, and building engines, and loses the overhead of running a series. If you think there is money to be made in Champ Car, run! don't walk! run! away from this proposal.

If Kalkoven thinks just that he will. I'm sure he hasn't been out buying running shoes these past three weeks. Only he and his accountant know how red or how black the books are.


In a unified series toughest part is who is responsible for what amount of cars, or should anybody be. Kalkoven is feeding his car owners and himself dollars to run cars, because REAL sponsorships just aren't there. The same will happen to Tony if both Toyota and Honda leave, it's back to writing checks. It's not "Team GREEN" for nothing, and after Honda leaves (if they decide to do so) a Big Gulp won't cut it running that team.

Two men, two boats, writing checks to stay afloat.

Come up with a combined series, sharing costs and revenues, and the businessman that can promote better, will make more money, and feed their part of the series less, they will slowly take over the other's assigned venues, making themselves more money.

Reasons why the IRL should make a deal:

When CART lost Toyota/Honda after 2002, Pook had to scramble and pay out a lot of money because the major sponsors, "the manufacturers" left, gone was Ganassi (2) gone was Green (2) gone was Penske in 01' (2) gone was Rahal (2) gone was Fernandez (2).

Those same teams now have 16 starters in the Indy Racing League, each and everyone's main sponsorship dollars are tied to Toyota and Honda.

So if the manufacturer's dollars (yen) is not replaced in the IRL Tony could lose between 50% to 100% of the cars listed above. Honda's continued participation is the only bad/good news. It fuzzies up the picture, or may lead to a unified series with turbos for everyone.

Reasons why Kalkoven should make a deal:

From the onset he wasn't going to promote, and that's all they do, he wasn't going to lose money, but that's all they do. The 2007 specs is a pipedream, he has teams that can't afford the development and cost of new chassis, I doubt he would want to absorb the cost of a new engine program too. Buying Cosworth was brilliant, looking overseas for short term, is abandoning fans longer term isn't, because IF Tony weathers his storm he will continue to move into those traditional markets. Instead of the IRL having a 2 to 1 advantage on natural road courses, it could easily grow.

A decent schedule from a combination of the two series wouldn't be hard. They want to keep the ones that make them money and ditch the ones that don't.

Of course all this will probably go for not, and nothing will happen until the next "crisis" in open wheel. Probably NASCAR taking over Canada that Franky keeps pointing out. ;)

Of course KK is in it to make money, but don't think for a second he didn't jump in because he like racing. KK has made a lot of money, and I'm sure he could make a lot more doing something else. It doesn't seem like this is all about money to me. I also don't see how just handing the keys to TG will make him more money unless TG takes the burden of all the losses while KK profits from other things.

Both MO and RA were open to the IRL, they chose not to go after either or couldn't get either.

[Insomniac]

Yet they are talking with the IRL. Why? Just not to look like the bad guy keeping unification from happening? I think he sees the propping up of teams less like an investment, more like an expense. Whereas Cosworth and Long Beach as something tangible.

Beacuse they're willing to listen. Maybe they're hoping for the same miracle as the rest of us, that TG won't demand he own and control everything and that they can get back together. The difference now is that ChampCar isn't going to make changes until an agreement is in place. It doesn't hurt them to listen to them. Notice it isn't CC going to them. It's usually a go between.

He sees helping teams as necessary. He sees buying LB and Cosworth as ensuring certain cornerstones are in place that will provide stability and hopefully the sponsorship for teams so that they won't need to help them.

[SteveH]

I never said throw in the towel,

I know, I wasn't referring to you. It was directed at TG. Seems like he thinks the owners of CC should just turn the sport over to him and walk away. Until he realizes that KK, PG and GF have an investment in this that requires them to be made whole, either trhough sharing control or in some sort of financial reimbursement, then dealing with TG is just a waste of time.

[Andrew Longman]

I think when KK et al took on Champcar they saw assets that were underperforming and saw a way to make them work better under a different business model.

CART operated towards the end as a conduit for moving manufacturers money to teams. When that ended it became necessary to adopt a different business model. That model requires lower overall cost and greater cost certainty. It also required doing more with the Champcar product to make it more attractive to fans and sponsors. Pook began that change and going to the spec Cosworth was the first step.

Getting rid of loser events was another. Getting greater corporate sponsorships at the events themselves remains critical. Cleveland is moving in the right direction in this regard, but I fear too slowly. Toronto sponsorships are up this year. Going to China and elsewhere are specifically designed with this in mind. If the events make enough money then they can pay more for CCWS to show up and more flows to the teams.

Without these two things; cost control and profitable events they series simply can't work and so that's why they put their money and attention there first.

The third priority is direct sponsorship of the teams. That's tougher because NASCAR soaks up so much of this sponsorship and it is hard to compete without better TV numbers. If they can make the events successful enough this won't matter, but it is a missed opportunity to make serious coin. It also is about the only reason to talk to TG IMO. The generally better TV deal (actual production and announcers aside) of the IRL and the exposure of the I500 will make it easier to fill sidepod. Not easy, mind you. Just easier. To the degree that will accelerate attracting sponsors and to the degree that is valuable should be the basis for any conversation with TG.

If 711, Jim Beam, Argent, etc are indeed sham sponsors then TG has little on even the narrow basis for negotiation I see.

[NismoZ]

That "offer" is no offer, it isn't even a fair proposal. All it says is "give us your series, WE'LL run it and even do more international races (Montreal, Mexico City, Surfers, maybe China and Korea if they're really big for you next year) and, OH LOOK!, That's 8 road races,with our three, a 50/50 split AND more international events! We'd really be helping you out, just TRUST us!" :rolleyes: Wouldn't HALF of a family business that had great prospects for future success, including a probable resurgence of it's marquee event, be worth more than a whole family business bleeding like a stuck pig with it's marquee falling to the sidewalk!?

[oddlycalm]

Reasons why Kalkoven should make a deal: None. You post all this nonsense as if TG was a rational person that will act rationally in a business transaction. The truth is that he isn't and he won't. The reason that KK's proposal was to relegate TG to running the IMS is that it's all he's capable of, and then just barely. This is the same reason why the EARL's counter offer hasn't gotten an answer. KK has met with this idiot and seen his behavior first hand, and I'm sure that his offer was based on that experience. If you are waiting for this position will soften or change, don't hold your breath.

Perhaps this will bring it into focus for you. Would you want to be in business with TG....? I rest my case. Nobody wants to be in business with that incredible dumbass other than to take his money once a year.

oc

[RacinM3]

After all the hand-wringing in this thread, I'm only picturing the big hearty laugh KK got after reading that simpleton's proposal. I wonder if the proposal was written in crayon?

[Brickman]

After all the hand-wringing in this thread, I'm only picturing the big hearty laugh KK got after reading that simpleton's proposal. I wonder if the proposal was written in crayon?

We have no idea what the proposal is, I'm g-u-e-s-s-i-n-g that it would look like this:

Say they went about choosing venues like picking teams in pickup game of baseball. KK would go first picking his three road courses.

1.Long Beach
2.Toronto
3.Montreal

4. Indy
5. Kansas
6. Chicagoland

Then they have some joint tracks where they both share money from the TV and Gate.

7. Michigan
8. Fontana
9. Milwaukee

Then dividing up the remaining tracks

10. Mexico

11. Sears Point

12. Denver

13. Kentucky

14. Road America

15. Las Vegas

16. Watkins Glen

Jettisoning these tracks or substituting them for others already listed.

Portland
Monterrey
Edmonton
San Jose
Korea
Australia
Homestead
Phoenix
Texas
Richmond
Nashville
Pikes Peak

Now obviously if KK didn't think the economics were of interest to him, control, equity in the tracks, or TG being involved in anyway he could turn it down, if he thought otherwise he could counter offer.

I just hope details come out about this one if it goes down the tubes, so we can see how far apart they were, or how unfair it was structured. We never heard details in the late 90's... it would just be nice to know.

[Steve99]

Brickman, in your last scenario, who would own and control the series? Most of those tracks are owned by someone else or already have promoters. Are they just going to step out of the way and let TG and KK take all the revenue?

IMO we have already seen enough of what was proposed. TG wants full control of the series, which is just ridiculous. Are the OWRS investors just supposed to walk away from their investment.

How the IRL went from being "TG's failed experiment" to the "Hulman Family Business" this week is beyond me. I thought the Hulman family business was Clabber Girl and IMS.

[nrc]

Kentucky instead of Australia. Ha. Ha ha.

[Brickman]

Kentucky instead of Australia. Ha. Ha ha.

No... that would be one of TG's tracks, he would keep the money made or absorb the money lost. KK could eliminate one of the other road, street circuits if he thought Australia was more important than another of HIS races.

[coolhand]

No... that would be one of TG's tracks, he would keep the money made or absorb the money lost. KK could eliminate one of the other road, street circuits if he thought Australia was more important than another of HIS races.

sufers is the crowd jewel of overseas races and the formula that CCWS is trying to repeat in Korea.

i dont see the same importance in Kentucky

[Lizzerd]

Brickman, am I getting you right? You propose 16 races, 8 for I-Don't-Know, 8 for CCWS. The Idiot Grandson gets the profit or accepts the loss for his races and CCWS gets (and loses) nothing for those races and vice versa?

Why would KK et al even think about that if they could have even, say, 12 profitable races?

Makes no sense.

[Brickman]

Brickman, in your last scenario, who would own and control the series? Most of those tracks are owned by someone else or already have promoters. Are they just going to step out of the way and let TG and KK take all the revenue?

IMO we have already seen enough of what was proposed. TG wants full control of the series, which is just ridiculous. Are the OWRS investors just supposed to walk away from their investment.

How the IRL went from being "TG's failed experiment" to the "Hulman Family Business" this week is beyond me. I thought the Hulman family business was Clabber Girl and IMS.

With control of the venues and an income stream to either of the promoters ownership wouldn't be an issue. NASCAR could own it, but as the promoter of the ovals TG would derive income from tracks under his umbrella, KK would derive income from his road and street circuits. Neither TG or KK could have their tracks removed from the schedule without mutual agreement.

Come up with a set of rules they both agree on. Come up with a set of specs they agree on. Come up with car counts they are responsible for. Come up with a per race expenditures that would pay officials for. Come up with binding arbitration for disputes.

Example: Long Beach race, KK gets ticket income, TV income, pays out IF he is short his quota of cars (if needed), pays out for officiating expenditures. IF the race loses money he loses money, if it makes money, he makes money.

Example" Kentucky :gomer: TG gets ticket income, TV income, pays money to field his quota of cars (if needed), pays out for officiating expenditures. IF the race loses money he loses money, if it makes money, he makes money.

[Brickman]

Brickman, am I getting you right? You propose 16 races, 8 for I-Don't-Know, 8 for CCWS. The Idiot Grandson gets the profit or accepts the loss for his races and CCWS gets (and loses) nothing for those races and vice versa?

Why would KK et al even think about that if they could have even, say, 12 profitable races?

Makes no sense.

They would consider it if he's paying money to field 70% of the field. He would consider it if he's losing money on TV, he would consider it if the 12 races he has aren't profitable.

If his world is wonderful and profitable and has nothing but upside he will pass.

Again... I'm just guessing what a fair unification would be like. It's not often anyone attempts something that is fair for both sides.

[Lizzerd]

So, using your example, what does CCWS get if Kentucky makes money?

I still think your idea is folly.

[Brickman]

sufers is the crowd jewel of overseas races and the formula that CCWS is trying to repeat in Korea.

i dont see the same importance in Kentucky

I don't see much sense in having 1.5 cookie cutter ovals, but they are "officially" sellouts. So I figured TG would have them, and have Kentucky under his umbrella too. I got rid of Texas, because I don't like Texas.

How you mix your 8 or 9 street circuits, road courses, or ovals is up to the individual. How KK and TG would do them is up to them.

[Brickman]

So, using your example, what does CCWS get if Kentucky makes money?

I still think your idea is folly.

CCWS makes no money, loses no money.

At Long Beach TG makes no money, loses no money. It's not a race under his umbrella.

The winner is the best promoter of their tracks.

Folly, foolishness, but is it fair? If not why not? Equal say on the specs, 100% say on their tracks. 100% profit or loss for their pieces of the pie.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Meanwhile, back in REALITY, we have two seperate series that aren't getting back together anytime soon. Wake up!

[Brickman]

Meanwhile, back in REALITY, we have two seperate series that aren't getting back together anytime soon. Wake up!

Yea... back to reality.

It would be nice that if they can't get this "involved" at least they could meet somewhere between this and where they are now.

[Lizzerd]

CCWS makes no money, loses no money. At Long Beach TG makes no money, loses no money. It's not a race under his umbrella.

The winner is the best promoter economically of their tracks.

Folly, foolishness, but is it fair? If not why not? Equal say on the specs, 100% say on their tracks. 100% profit or loss for their pieces of the pie.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Let me try again, for those of us who are comprehension-challenged.

Why the hell would TG take his "league" to race at LB if he had NO CHANCE of making money? To cut his likely losses by racing at Phoenix? (Hint to TG, don't go to Phoenix). Why the hell would KK and Co. race in Kansas if they, as an organization, had NO CHANCE of making any money. Forget about the potential loss at any circuit, because it's all about MAKING MONEY, and taking the risk that you might not MAKE MONEY. If you don't MAKE MONEY conducting an event, CHANGE YOUR APPROACH for the next event you have at that venue or DON'T RETURN to that venue.

Help me out here, people. Am I the only one here that thinks Brickman's idea is (now beyond folly), ridiculous?

[CART T. Katz]

Help me out here, people. Am I the only one here that thinks Brickman's idea is (now beyond folly), ridiculous?

nope.

unless ccws gets ticket revenues from 3 patrons at kentucky, myself included who actually would care if the real indycars came, i say this plan sucks. looking at this list, i see the road courses of ccws making more money because we obviously know that their revenues generated (other than consessions) are specifically for the champ cars. in cleveland, i didn't see too much f2000 or trans-am or swc swag around. granted i didn't look real hard for it but you see my point.

meanwhile, other than indy and kentucky, the more successful races for the crapwagons are tied on to the trucks. having never gone to their races, i don't know how their souvenier setup is. what specific irl revenues can be determined from those other successful events if ticket sales are lumped in with the winston cup tickets as well? it isn't fair to list those events as being successful because of artificial enhancement.

all this plan really ensures is a larger bump in profits for anton at his tracks while we essentially get no real change at ours. we help them and they don't help us. NO THANKS.

[Brickman]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Let me try again, for those of us who are comprehension-challenged.

Why the hell would TG take his "league" to race at LB if he had NO CHANCE of making money? To cut his likely losses by racing at Phoenix? (Hint to TG, don't go to Phoenix). Why the hell would KK and Co. race in Kansas if they, as an organization, had NO CHANCE of making any money. Forget about the potential loss at any circuit, because it's all about MAKING MONEY, and taking the risk that you might not MAKE MONEY. If you don't MAKE MONEY conducting an event, CHANGE YOUR APPROACH for the next event you have at that venue or DON'T RETURN to that venue.

Help me out here, people. Am I the only one here that thinks Brickman's idea is (now beyond folly), ridiculous?

There would be one officiating and technical staff. They would be paid by KK or TG depending on if it was a road couse ot oval, just to cover officiating costs, it wouldn't be fair for TG to make dollars from Champ Car's track would it?

KK isn't the one racing at Kansas, the teams under his umbrella are and they will be getting purses, the purses would be the same regardless if it was an oval or road course. So therefore KK isn't losing a dime.

So once again, Long Beach would be a revenue stream for KK, all profit is KK's except for costs. Phoenix would be a revenue stream or negative cash flow for TG, all profit is TG's except for costs.

IF TG doesn't promote and does a lousy job at Phoenix, only he suffers, the teams make the same amount, KK doesn't lose a dime.

IF KK does a great job at Long Beach, he doesn't suffer but makes money. TG doesn't make a dime, but his partner in the series does.

IF the race was at Laguna last year, and KK got lousy ticket sales, spent money out on promotion and got nothing in return, paid his purses, and took a financial bath, he could move the race to a new venue and try it all again.

It's quite a simple way of bringing two series together by shifting the power to the venues they race at, not the series itself, the series is just a platform in which to set the schedule on.

[CART T. Katz]

i think we (lizzard and i) understand that.
i pose the question i think he was getting at: what financial sense does it make for merger under your plan if anton gets more benefit for racing at his tracks because of the infusion of champcar entries than does ccws get for racing at their tracks because of the crapwagon entries?

[Brickman]

i think we (lizzard and i) understand that.
i pose the question i think he was getting at: what financial sense does it make for merger under your plan if anton gets more benefit for racing at his tracks because of the infusion of champcar entries than does ccws get for racing at their tracks because of the crapwagon entries?

Why wouldn't the infusion be not be equal? It seems that it would be equal.

[Brickman]

Just because trucks race at Texas on Friday night doesn't make Saturday night for Indy Cars a success. Just because ARCA ran on Saturday in Kansas didn't make Indy Cars a success on Sunday.

CART had trucks before races at Fontana and there we far more fans on Sunday seeing the CART race than attended the truck race.

It's true that most people who fly into a race like to see more than a single race, but I don't know anybody who has flown to see a race because they ALSO have trucks running the day before.

[CART T. Katz]

Why wouldn't the infusion be not be equal? It seems that it would be equal.
who normally goes to champcar races? casual fans, champcar fans and champcar fanatics.

who normally goes to crapwagon races? casual fans and a few irl fanatics.

because the crapwagons have alienated their fanbase and a lot of the hardcores, there could only be growth in the areas of casual fans or champcar fans going to those venues. i really don't think that there are a lot of irl fans that are going to put a huge dent in the revenue gate at champcar run events to make a blip. and if there are irl hardcores that would be willing to go to a ccws event, that number would be minute because then essentially they would have to admit that their way of thinking for the past ten years has been wrong and would be forced to associate with us, the champcar fans. i know most of us (me included) love our series enough to not really give two craps about venue be it gallatin county or marion county, but i cannot say the same for them. therefore i say that in the long run, ccws at anton's events will generate more profit for anton than crapwagons at ccws will generate for ccws.

[Lizzerd]

i think we (lizzard and i) understand that.
i pose the question i think he was getting at: what financial sense does it make for merger under your plan if anton gets more benefit for racing at his tracks because of the infusion of champcar entries than does ccws get for racing at their tracks because of the crapwagon entries?

Thank you. :thumbup:


Why wouldn't the infusion be not be equal? It seems that it would be equal.

By equal, according to your formula, TG will cede half his income for the i500 to CCWS? Or, would CCWS teams spend 40% of their annual budget in May at IMS while CCWS realizes zero income as an entity? This was, by the way, an issue between CART and USAC/IMS five or more years before Lord Tony's temper tantrum.. Please, Brickman... you are making me laugh now.

[devilmaster]

Brick - the reason why this, imo, would never work - the concept of: race irl races and the irl makes the money, and race CC races and CC makes the money, is that no race is equal with another in terms of how much money is to be made, so one has to assume that one side, at the start of this 'merger' is technically the poor cousin.

That, basically would continue the battle between the series that we have now. Both would be trying to be more profitable, and therefore be the dominant side of the merger. If that were to happen, now both series have a say in what races and where they should go. If one race starts to fail, then the debate becomes where the replacement race should be. As an example, if Portland were to fail, and CC decides the race should be held in South Africa because they'll pay big to have it there, and TG et al don't want to go, then I can see the start of more boycotts and the like. In fact, that scenario would basically be a repeat of CART in the early 90's, when the new races that Tony 'claimed' were destroying oval OW in america and it was one of his reasons for the IRL.

This merger plan you have offered lays out too many extra costs(by having two groups of officials,etc), levels of confusion (as the average fan wonders whose running the show this week), and in honest reality, opens the doors for a split all over again, because both sides now have an official voice in the other's business and when one side doesn't like how the other does their business, then major problems will arise.

And, IMO this idea that you have offered, makes the situation worse than it is now.

[Brickman]

who normally goes to champcar races? casual fans, champcar fans and champcar fanatics.

who normally goes to crapwagon races? casual fans and a few irl fanatics.

because the crapwagons have alienated their fanbase and a lot of the hardcores, there could only be growth in the areas of casual fans or champcar fans going to those venues. i really don't think that there are a lot of irl fans that are going to put a huge dent in the revenue gate at champcar run events to make a blip. and if there are irl hardcores that would be willing to go to a ccws event, that number would be minute because then essentially they would have to admit that their way of thinking for the past ten years has been wrong and would be forced to associate with us, the champcar fans. i know most of us (me included) love our series enough to not really give two craps about venue be it gallatin county or marion county, but i cannot say the same for them. therefore i say that in the long run, ccws at anton's events will generate more profit for anton than crapwagons at ccws will generate for ccws.

Not sure why you didn't list Indy Car fans along with "casual" and "a few" fanatics?

Well... first off when watching Speedvision News the other day they were showing a race fan showing his two F-1 USGP tickets to the ticket window at Cleveland. A USGP ticket holder going to a CCWS race wearing and IRL hat. One would hope that would occur.

Secondly, who cares if TG got more ccws fans going to his races than irl fans going to ccws races? It's still potentially more than what they would have if there were two series and fan confusion among the casual fan base. Plus I don't think that would be a sure thing at all. Would it be fair to say a lot of ccws fans don't really care for ovals?

If "fanatics" didn't want to go to joint tracks like Michigan and Fontana (from my myth schedule) or if IRL fans are so anal as to embrace St. Pete one weekend but reject Long Beach the next because of the linage of who ran at the track before, or who promotes the race they would be pretty foolish. In all honesty, people don't look to see what school their doctor went to while sitting in a waiting room, fans won't look to see if KK or TG is promoting the event.

I just don't see that it would be a problem. It really comes down to promotion of the product and attracting RACE fans.

For open whee I go to Phoenix because I like the Bullring, Long Beach because it's a great beach party (wife's preferance too) and Fontana because it's less of a momentum track for the IRL, along with Vegas, and not just because it's free.

[Brickman]

Thank you. :thumbup:



By equal, according to your formula, TG will cede half his income for the i500 to CCWS? Or, would CCWS teams spend 40% of their annual budget in May at IMS while CCWS realizes zero income as an entity? This was, by the way, an issue between CART and USAC/IMS five or more years before Lord Tony's temper tantrum.. Please, Brickman... you are making me laugh now.

Hosh posh, I never believed that 40% of budget stuff, I doubt if you added up all the tracks days, at all the races, it wouldn't even equal 15% of the total days to and from and at the other tracks on the schedule. No KK would not get 1/2 of the income, but the teams would get a heck of a paycheck though.

[Brickman]

Brick - the reason why this, imo, would never work - the concept of: race irl races and the irl makes the money, and race CC races and CC makes the money, is that no race is equal with another in terms of how much money is to be made, so one has to assume that one side, at the start of this 'merger' is technically the poor cousin.

That, basically would continue the battle between the series that we have now. Both would be trying to be more profitable, and therefore be the dominant side of the merger. If that were to happen, now both series have a say in what races and where they should go. If one race starts to fail, then the debate becomes where the replacement race should be. As an example, if Portland were to fail, and CC decides the race should be held in South Africa because they'll pay big to have it there, and TG et al don't want to go, then I can see the start of more boycotts and the like. In fact, that scenario would basically be a repeat of CART in the early 90's, when the new races that Tony 'claimed' were destroying oval OW in america and it was one of his reasons for the IRL.

This merger plan you have offered lays out too many extra costs (by having two groups of officials,etc), levels of confusion (as the average fan wonders whose running the show this week), and in honest reality, opens the doors for a split all over again, because both sides now have an official voice in the other's business and when one side doesn't like how the other does their business, then major problems will arise.

And, IMO this idea that you have offered, makes the situation worse than it is now.

Well hold on here. I always thought that IRL races were full of alluminum and with little or no fans, now all of a sudden that's changed? People are afraid the TG would make more? Let me put that aside because it doesn't matter if TG scores big at Indy or KK at Long Beach. They have equal races under their umbrella, 1/2 road/street 1/2 oval.

You make a good point about what happens if one race fails, or an opportunity is seen elsewhere. But I think they could from the onset secure the dates for KK and TG in their agreement. $10 million dollar fine to TG if he objects to moving Portland to South America, besides he shouldn't care. KK has to foot he bill of shipping to his venue if he goes overseas just as TG does. He makes no money and loses no money if KK finds a better venue to fit his part of the schedule.

As I said it doesn't matter who's running the show, it would just be one series, call it the Indy Champ Car World Series, it would have only one set of officials, paid from TG's and KK's coffers. I believe there is a crossover between crews, officials, teams already. Officials benefit no one because TG and KK don't own the teams, they own the promoting rights and ticket sales and TV income for their venues.

They come up with a set of rules, changes have to be unanimous, or binding arbitration.

The thing that works on this plan is that you basically have two promoters working for one series, deriving their income from their assigned races, not from the series itself. Pretty damn equal footing.

[KLang]

If "fanatics" didn't want to go to joint tracks like Michigan and Fontana (from my myth schedule) or if IRL fans are so anal as to embrace St. Pete one weekend but reject Long Beach the next because of the linage of who ran at the track before, or who promotes the race they would be pretty foolish. In all honesty, people don't look to see what school their doctor went to while sitting in a waiting room, fans won't look to see if KK or TG is promoting the event.


I'm that 'anal' and 'foolish'. I will never support an event that involves FTG in any way. I suppose there probably aren't that many like me but he will never see one dime of profit from me, ever. I can spend my money on other things. I don't see any sort of merger happening anyway. IMO both will survive or fail on their own.

[pchall]

Brick - This merger plan you have offered lays out too many extra costs(by having two groups of officials,etc), levels of confusion (as the average fan wonders whose running the show this week), and in honest reality, opens the doors for a split all over again, because both sides now have an official voice in the other's business and when one side doesn't like how the other does their business, then major problems will arise.

And, IMO this idea that you have offered, makes the situation worse than it is now.

We call it the IRsmelL now. And Brick's plan has the smell of cetyl alcohol applied over an oval field heaviliy manured for the past ten years.

[fourrunner]

Even in a "Perfect" re-unification ... Tony George would be a troublemaker ... He grew up getting his way through temper tantrums & holding his breath till he was blue ... He would make life miserable, or work behind peoples backs to disrupt & frustrate ... Once the Teams were under one umbrella, he would play sides to draw support, then he would have a Palace Coup to take over the series .... contract be damned !

This guy is poison, KK & Company should distance themselves as far away as they can!

[CART T. Katz]

Not sure why you didn't list Indy Car fans along with "casual" and "a few" fanatics?

that statement is so out there i don't really think it deserves a response, but i'll give you one anyway. remember the initial vision? all american, all ovals, low cost, that thing that attracted his first fanbase? anton has turned his back on all of that and the only ones who still follow with a passion are those with a bka (blood/kool-aid) level of .5. a lot of those people have finally seen the truth and have given up with his racing leeege. therefore, there are no fans, just casual fans who enjoy racing and his one or two fanatics.


Well... first off when watching Speedvision News the other day they were showing a race fan showing his two F-1 USGP tickets to the ticket window at Cleveland. A USGP ticket holder going to a CCWS race wearing and IRL hat.

i consider him a causal fan.


Secondly, who cares if TG got more ccws fans going to his races than irl fans going to ccws races? It's still potentially more than what they would have if there were two series and fan confusion among the casual fan base. Plus I don't think that would be a sure thing at all. Would it be fair to say a lot of ccws fans don't really care for ovals?

uh, no. champcar fans know what's up. that's why they never have actively supported that series other than maybe the 497.5. those people who say they do are just RACE FANS not particular to either series. champcar fans are particular to one series, they will not follow that other one because of who is in charge. any other people who go to crapwagon races are either ccws fans with a free ducat, casual fans or irl fanatics.

to your first point, what is the general purpose of running a business? to make money. if anton gets more benefit from ccws than ccws gets from the irl, what was the point of the merger from the ccws perspective? a few more entries? from that perspective, tg can rightly claim to command more of a controlling intrest in the merged series which means that our events that are marginal go away and his events that are sub-par come in. game over, anton wins. not what i want. not what any reasonably thinking logical champcar fan wants.

and your last point, would it also be fair to say that a lot of crapwagon fans really don't care for road and street circuits?


If "fanatics" didn't want to go to joint tracks like Michigan and Fontana (from my myth schedule) or if IRL fans are so anal as to embrace St. Pete one weekend but reject Long Beach the next because of the linage of who ran at the track before, or who promotes the race they would be pretty foolish. In all honesty, people don't look to see what school their doctor went to while sitting in a waiting room, fans won't look to see if KK or TG is promoting the event.

casual fans maybe. fans of either series no because either the champcar fans won't go because they are supporting the one figure who started this whole mess or the crapwagon fanatics won't go because they hate everything champcar. besides, going to a doctor is pretty much a life and death situation, going to an open wheel race is something strictly for personal entertainment value. clearly nowhere in the same ballpark, zip code, or league.


I just don't see that it would be a problem. It really comes down to promotion of the product and attracting RACE fans.

For open whee I go to Phoenix because I like the Bullring, Long Beach because it's a great beach party (wife's preferance too) and Fontana because it's less of a momentum track for the IRL, along with Vegas, and not just because it's free.

this is why i would consider you a casual race fan. as long as it has four wheels and an engine, you go watch it. if we raced under your plan, i know who is getting my ticket revenue, and it isn't phoenix or fontana unless both hosted a ccws promoted and officiated race there.

you are trying to convince the choir that giving anton money he doesn't deserve is a good thing. give better reasons or stop trying at all because it isn't working.

[pchall]

You forgot to mention that IRL fans are, to a large extent, fans of a single track who will gladly eat shite sammiches a dozen and more times a year so that they can have track dogs in May. :shakehead

[Brickman]

I'm that 'anal' and 'foolish'. I will never support an event that involves FTG in any way. I suppose there probably aren't that many like me but he will never see one dime of profit from me, ever. I can spend my money on other things. I don't see any sort of merger happening anyway. IMO both will survive or fail on their own.

Sure, there are fans like you on both sides as I said at TF "Fans don't care because both sides think they are on the high ground. One would have to wait until the water is up to their knees before even considering any proposal, and by the time it gets up to their chin they will have regrets about not being more sensible."

Gurgle away.

[Brickman]

You forgot to mention that IRL fans are, to a large extent, fans of a single track who will gladly eat shite sammiches a dozen and more times a year so that they can have track dogs in May. :shakehead

Those are worshippers of the holy ground of IMS. Everyone worships their home track to an extent. I use to walk Riverside every race, watch from every nook and cranny, it didn't matter if it was scca, usac, cart, nascar, 6 hour races. It was a damn good track, it died when it was only 31. IMS will be 90 bext year. So I expect track fanatics to be just that. They can gurgle away to for being closed minded.

[racer2c]

Sure, there are fans like you on both sides as I said at TF "Fans don't care because both sides think they are on the high ground. One would have to wait until the water is up to their knees before even considering any proposal, and by the time it gets up to their chin they will have regrets about not being more sensible."

Gurgle away.

Something to be said for a man who quotes himself. :gomer:

[Brickman]

that statement is so out there i don't really think it deserves a response, but i'll give you one anyway. remember the initial vision? all american, all ovals, low cost, that thing that attracted his first fanbase? anton has turned his back on all of that and the only ones who still follow with a passion are those with a bka (blood/kool-aid) level of .5. a lot of those people have finally seen the truth and have given up with his racing leeege. therefore, there are no fans, just casual fans who enjoy racing and his one or two fanatics.



i consider him a causal fan.



uh, no. champcar fans know what's up. that's why they never have actively supported that series other than maybe the 497.5. those people who say they do are just RACE FANS not particular to either series. champcar fans are particular to one series, they will not follow that other one because of who is in charge. any other people who go to crapwagon races are either ccws fans with a free ducat, casual fans or irl fanatics.

to your first point, what is the general purpose of running a business? to make money. if anton gets more benefit from ccws than ccws gets from the irl, what was the point of the merger from the ccws perspective? a few more entries? from that perspective, tg can rightly claim to command more of a controlling intrest in the merged series which means that our events that are marginal go away and his events that are sub-par come in. game over, anton wins. not what i want. not what any reasonably thinking logical champcar fan wants.

and your last point, would it also be fair to say that a lot of crapwagon fans really don't care for road and street circuits?



casual fans maybe. fans of either series no because either the champcar fans won't go because they are supporting the one figure who started this whole mess or the crapwagon fanatics won't go because they hate everything champcar. besides, going to a doctor is pretty much a life and death situation, going to an open wheel race is something strictly for personal entertainment value. clearly nowhere in the same ballpark, zip code, or league.



this is why i would consider you a casual race fan. as long as it has four wheels and an engine, you go watch it. if we raced under your plan, i know who is getting my ticket revenue, and it isn't phoenix or fontana unless both hosted a ccws promoted and officiated race there.

you are trying to convince the choir that giving anton money he doesn't deserve is a good thing. give better reasons or stop trying at all because it isn't working.

That's a hell of a casual fan, going to three different series. :shakehead

"our events that are marginal go away and his events that are sub-par come in"

I don't know where you come up with that, KK would control his dates and his part of the series. TG couldn't take them away anymore than KK could take his, equal footing.

you are trying to convince the choir that giving anton money he doesn't deserve is a good thing.

Hell don't go to anton's races, just support KK's races. It would be interesting to know what percentage of fans at Long Beach or Cleveland are "fanatics" or casual fans, would a series survive or die because those fans from either side don't cross the line?

and your last point, would it also be fair to say that a lot of crapwagon fans really don't care for road and street circuits?

I've proved by polling the faithful that the majority 2/3's would like road and street circuits. No I don't think they would want 50%, but I doubt ccws fans may want 50% ovals.

anton has turned his back on all of that and the only ones who still follow with a passion are those with a bka (blood/kool-aid) level of .5. a lot of those people have finally seen the truth and have given up with his racing leeege. therefore, there are no fans, just casual fans who enjoy racing and his one or two fanatics.

Yea some took the full hook line and sinker, but it was always about control, I don't think the majority have given up on the league, but some USAC sprint fans follow their drivers in NASCAR, but I think you are focused too much on TF. Texas had 90,000 fans, I think two or three people from Texas post at TF. You've dismissed a lot of people with your generalization.

[Insomniac]

I just want to say that 1. Brickman's plan is confusing. :) 2. Who would run a buisiness like that?

[Brickman]

I just want to say that 1. Brickman's plan is confusing. :) 2. Who would run a buisiness like that?

I tried to bridge the gap. Giving full control of KK's venues to him.

The alternative would be a unification of like specs, and not running on the same day, but fans would still be confused as to where Danica is. ;)

I haven't heard of anything else from anyone else, except running a few joint races, which they could do for a couple of years before they adopted a full schedule of joint races.

[Winston Wolfe]

Something to be said for a man who quotes himself. :gomer:

yeah, and not only that.... this fence sitter of dubious dinstinction expects that we are all over at TF reading his dual position statements over there, and will perpetuate his own threads by answering every question and response with additional spin.... a la "Silva".... :shakehead

I dont believe I have read or seen a goofier proposal that this one.... Brick seems pretty dead set on it thought, because HE thought of it....

KK and GF and the rest of the CCWS need to stay just as far away from TG as possible, that way, they dont get caught up in his Vision statements, which seem to change at least a couple of times PER SEASON, now that the joint if becoming unglued over in the .1RL....

Unification.
Merger.
Absorption.
Schedule Sharing.

None of it will work as long as TG, the individual, is invovled. That dood has proven he cant make a decision to assist the institution of OW in North America. He has spent the last 10 years trying to ruin it, and has had MANY MANY chances to make it a better place for EVERYONE involved...

[Steve99]

I think Brickman's plan is nonsensical. TG should love it.

KK is not the promoter for most of the CCWS races, and no one ever explained what would happen to the existing promoters.

[Winston Wolfe]

Everyone always thinks the other guy screwed up and that you could do better. But I shouldn't have used "Rosy", it was a simplistic term to express confidence that it would be easier rather then insurmountable.

Like KK said "The long-term belief is that open-wheel racing in the Americas and around other parts of the world can be an economic and viable product, particularly as the economy improves. This is not OPM, Other People’s Money, this is our own personal commitment to make this work.'

He's an investor, he likes to invest in the product, with his own money.

Yet they are talking with the IRL. Why? Just not to look like the bad guy keeping unification from happening? I think he sees the propping up of teams less like an investment, more like an expense. Whereas Cosworth and Long Beach as something tangible.

Why would a smart business exeucutive like KK and his partners for that matter, effectively WASTE all of that money buying LBGP and NOT think that the race was going to be around for a few years ?

[CART T. Katz]

and yet brick, you have failed again to answer my question, one that i have asked directly:

what financial sense does it make for merger under your plan if anton gets more benefit for racing at his tracks because of the infusion of champcar entries than does ccws get for racing at their tracks because of the crapwagon entries?

if all of the ccws events are marginal and all of anton's races are boons what motivation does ccws have in continuing to support their races? NONE.


I don't know where you come up with that, KK would control his dates and his part of the series. TG couldn't take them away anymore than KK could take his, equal footing.

ccws also loses money in moving dates to another venue; the total loss in profit from that venue plus the loss in establishing a new venue. for comparison, i am sure that ccws lost a lot of money in total from the losses of laguna and the establishment of san jose. this race will have to be extremely profitible to make up for the total losses.

there are no guaranteed increased profits through crapwagon infusion for any dates because the audience that went the years before would still go for years afterwards. there are guaranteed increased profits through ccws infusion for all dates because the casual fan only knows that there are more cars and different people and some ccws fans will go to those events.

because of the same marginal profits from the ccws events, no event is stable enough to make any financial sense, especially if the profits don't come close to one event of anton's. a continuous money loss. therefore any businessman worth his leadership position and responsibility drops the event. there is now an uneven level with anton at least plus 1. anton has rights to say that he should have more responsibility and say in the running of the series because he has more events still on the schedule, therefore more interest in the health of the series. he would have valid reason to demand an addition to his list because ccws failed to be successful. or, because he is generating more money he has rights to say that he should have more responsibility and say in the running of the series and an addition to his list. or, ccws gets out completely because no event they run is viable. a no gain situation for ccws if anything, a no risk situation for anton. game over, anton wins.


I've proved by polling the faithful that the majority 2/3's would like road and street circuits. No I don't think they would want 50%, but I doubt ccws fans may want 50% ovals.

make a similar poll here and cw (if you are still allowed to) for a comparison, otherwise this is a pointless stat. and here is the obligatory link demand for proof. THIS champcar fan wants 50% ovals because that is what it used to be before anton screwed it up. the crapwagons have frightened most of the fanbase into what open wheel oval racing is nowadays. i remember side-by-side action at michigan before the hanford device. i remember close races at nazareth. i have seen replays of tight action at new hampshire and at milwaukee. those were good races because they had the right package for them and there was skill involved. the crapwagon formula promotes the tight action because they are underpowered and overgripped and relatively little skill is needed. had the champcars not been forcefully removed from domestic ovals or had better packages for others champcar fans would greatly support oval racing. i am sure that there are others as well who want more ovals.


Yea some took the full hook line and sinker,... but I think you are focused too much on TF. Texas had 90,000 fans, I think two or three people from Texas post at TF. You've dismissed a lot of people with your generalization.

i don't care about tf. i don't visit tf. i never even brought up tf (just like i never brought up the champcar fanatics forum. i said champcar fanatics, aka hardcore champcar fans and crapwagon fanatics, aka hardcore irl fans). they can do whatever they want at tf. and i wasn't talking about tf. there are other racing websites as well. are those non tf-fans who followed the leeege from the inception still there with the leeege now? more than likely no, but that's my assumption. and as for the ovals comment and the texas attendance comment, you've dismissed a lot of people with your generalization because you simply don't know.

[Brickman]

Why would a smart business exeucutive like KK and his partners for that matter, effectively WASTE all of that money buying LBGP and NOT think that the race was going to be around for a few years ?

He had to buy it. It was a guarantee of being around, if he had lost Long Beach, it would have doomed CCWS... IMHO. Besides, he could have always signed up the IRL if worse came to worse. He has it guaranteed for the next 5 years. Kudos to KK for getting it.

[Brickman]

I think Brickman's plan is nonsensical. TG should love it.

KK is not the promoter for most of the CCWS races, and no one ever explained what would happen to the existing promoters.

The existing promoters don't get TV revenue, so KK retains that income and you'd have to list what tracks are soley promoted by others, I believe most are joint or done by KK. It's not a shocking changeover that some think it is.

[Brickman]

yeah, and not only that.... this fence sitter of dubious dinstinction expects that we are all over at TF reading his dual position statements over there, and will perpetuate his own threads by answering every question and response with additional spin.... a la "Silva".... :shakehead

I dont believe I have read or seen a goofier proposal that this one.... Brick seems pretty dead set on it thought, because HE thought of it....

KK and GF and the rest of the CCWS need to stay just as far away from TG as possible, that way, they dont get caught up in his Vision statements, which seem to change at least a couple of times PER SEASON, now that the joint if becoming unglued over in the .1RL....

Unification.
Merger.
Absorption.
Schedule Sharing.

None of it will work as long as TG, the individual, is invovled. That dood has proven he cant make a decision to assist the institution of OW in North America. He has spent the last 10 years trying to ruin it, and has had MANY MANY chances to make it a better place for EVERYONE involved...

IF I expected you over there I wouldn't have quoted myself, besides my point of doing so is that both sides are of the same mind, there is nothing wrong, everything is fine, stay the course and the other side will die.

I'm dead set on it not because I proposed it, because no one has come up with a better unification plan in which KK has equal footing in running his venues, all the others ones are subjected to TG's whims.

I still don't know what they are proposing now, we may never know just like DETAILS of the last proposal in 1999, or Ford's proposal that included them becoming the USGP sponsor.

[devilmaster]

Back on topic for a moment....


The main points of the IRL offer are a 50-50 split of oval and road/street course events, more international events, provisions for the IRL to help out a number of Champ Car teams financially, and the creation of an advisory committee made up of stakeholders and headed by Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven. Sharing ownership of the new series was not included.

Why does this, the more i read it, sound like the CART board of the early 90s?

Where the team owners owned the series and Tony was offered a seat on the board to satisfy his need to voice his concerns about the 'state' of OW?

Why does this, to me, sound like Tony is still bitter about the whole thing back in the 90's? He has a board of members, while he, The Visionary Lord, owns the series? To me, why does this sound like a classic case of megalomania?

The Visionary Lord - copyright pending. :p

[Brickman]

and yet brick, you have failed again to answer my question, one that i have asked directly:

what financial sense does it make for merger under your plan if anton gets more benefit for racing at his tracks because of the infusion of champcar entries than does ccws get for racing at their tracks because of the crapwagon entries?



He doesn't get more benefit. They would both benefit equally, just as many cars would be under KK's umbrella as under TG's.

Let's say that right now KK is propping up 70% of the (argue that point if you want) teams, he surely saves on that regard because TG is bringing in his cars, so that greatly reduces his outlay. I think what seems to trouble you is that TG benefits in anyway whatsoever, that's the same thinking TFers have about Indy and ccws using it to help their series. Get over it.

It's a mutual benefit for both, cutting overhead by 50%, cutting confusion by 100%. Getting better manufacturer support by having one series.

If you think two series is better than one so be it.

[devilmaster]

In the end Brick,

Don't you agree this is all academic? Tony and KK aren't going to merge at all, imo, let alone anytime soon. Too much ego, too much pride.

[Brickman]

In the end Brick,

Don't you agree this is all academic? Tony and KK aren't going to merge at all, let alone anytime soon. Too much ego, too much pride.

Well... it may be sooner than we think. I always thought the manufacturers could force an agreement. Honda still may if TG's back is against a wall.

Ego on one side and animosity on the other, unwillingness to bend. Thank God it's only about a sport and bullets and bombs aren't involved.

[CART T. Katz]

He doesn't get more benefit. They would both benefit equally, just as many cars would be under KK's umbrella as under TG's.

did i say cars were the only factor?

:checks thread:

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnope. never did.

you say that who runs the track gets all profits. that means benefits. so that means ticket sales, souvenier sales, on-track amenities, etc. cars as revenues never enter into it.

crapwagon tracks will generate more in terms of profit (which then goes to anton) from revenues BECAUSE OF ccws entries than ccws will generate BECAUSE OF crapwagon entries, yes or no?

[Brickman]

did i say cars were the only factor?

:checks thread:

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnope. never did.

you say that who runs the track gets all profits. that means benefits. so that means ticket sales, souvenier sales, on-track amenities, etc. cars as revenues never enter into it.

crapwagon tracks will generate more in terms of profit (which then goes to anton) from revenues BECAUSE OF ccws entries than ccws will generate BECAUSE OF crapwagon entries, yes or no?

No.

KK tracks will generate income from Indy Car entries also. Why wouldn't they?

IF KK shows up at Fontana with 9 cars under his umbrella, it benefits TG.

IF TG shows up in Korea with 9 cars under his umbrella, it benefits KK.

In REALITY both sides couldn't fill 18 spots if they weren't propped up by Yen, KK/GF dollars, TG dollars not including the bogus sponsored teams of Forsythe Racing, PKV, Racing, Vision Racing. I'll bet if you looked at the books of all the teams only a small minority wouldn't need to be fed just to exist, and that's because they have their ride buyers.

So how could both sides going to each others venues be a bad thing?

[fourrunner]

I guess they would split the profits at the tracks based on paid attendence, so at TF they would claim the typical 100,000 attendence but Tony would announce the next day that only 40 people actually paid for the tickets !

Or we might actually get an honest count ... which might not be a good thing!!! ;)

or would they split the sanctioning fees ? eek

or would they split the TV revenue ? eek eek ( Tony would then say that the ABC / ESPN money is actually for the Indy 500 ... the IRL gets nothing )

and what happens when Danica's manager wises up and demands a cut of increased attendance ! ;)

[Insomniac]

I tried to bridge the gap. Giving full control of KK's venues to him.

The alternative would be a unification of like specs, and not running on the same day, but fans would still be confused as to where Danica is. ;)

I haven't heard of anything else from anyone else, except running a few joint races, which they could do for a couple of years before they adopted a full schedule of joint races.

You haven't heard anything from anyone else?

What about one company running it all? The owners are TG, KK, GF and PG (I don't know the percentages) but they all share the profits/losses in whatever percentage. This company chooses where to race, sanctions the races, awards purses (or determines the purse if there is no sanctioning fee), sets the rules and determines the equipment.

They would share all profits with the participants, TV revenue, sponsorships, sanctioning fess, etc. based on some formula.

The promoters run their tracks. If KK is a propomoter, it's his track. He either pays a sanctioning fee or a fee based on ticket sales. Same with TG and Indy.

The teams/participants are responsible for purchasing equipment and hiring people. They are responsible for finding money to pay for this.

Does this all seem too unreasonable to you?

[Joelski]

To everybody who keeps praying for this unification crap, or at least dragging this tired subject out of it's grave:

Get over it! It ain't gonna happen!

Thanks,

[fourrunner]

To everybody who keeps praying for this unification crap, or at least dragging this tired subject out of it's grave:

Get over it! It ain't gonna happen!

Thanks,


No .... Thank YOU!!!!! :thumbup:

[mueber]

To everybody who keeps praying for this unification crap, or at least dragging this tired subject out of it's grave:

Get over it! It ain't gonna happen!

Thanks,

No, Thank you!

I find it hard to believe that anyone anywhere thinks Tony George is interested in making a good faith effort to merge. The talks were nothing more than the usual, “If I don’t run it, it ain’t gonna happen” crap. We have seen this before.

Do any of you seriously think that, if the 2005 US Grand Prix was the greatest Grand Prix race of all time, Tony George would be more agreeable to a merger between Champ Car and the IRL than he is now? It’s just another lame excuse that only Track Forum posters take seriously. So can we all get over it and move forward now?

[TedN]

KK Says Merger Won't Happen (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050709.wchamp0709/BNStory/Sports)

Ted

[fourrunner]

God Bless Kevin Kalkoven !!

Killed that sucker dead in one sentence !!
:thumbup:

[pchall]

Will this stupid thread stop now?

[Brickman]

Will this stupid thread stop now?

Well yea... if nrc had waited two more days before starting this thread he could have saved me a lot of typing... and dealing with all those voices in my head. ;)

[NismoZ]

Sure, that's what he says NOW for public consumption, but what he REALLY means, and what is going on, as we speak, is... :p

[fourrunner]

I'm betting that when Kevin K was feeling sick and the shoulder wasn't healing right he probably was in a " getting things organized" fatalist mood, and figured if the deal was right he just might .....

But he's cured now, feeling very chipper, and his head is clear !!

Remembered why he bought this sucker, and everything is falling into place as was planned !

So PLEASE ALL SNOWBOARDERS

Stay the "F" away from our Leader!!!!!!

And Kevin ... If you go Skiing again ... Hire a Bunch of Body Gaurds to Cross Check any dummy thats heading your way!!! ;)

[Brickman]

Not even a year has passed since this interesting discussion.

I still don't think the DP01 s going to turn a wheel. I called it a pipedream because of the additional expense for the teams buying it, and not having teams with deep enough pockets. I think it's going to get a makover beore it rolls.

Other then that, instead of controlling their venues like I thought they would, it sounds like a 50/50 deal with joint decision making.

It ain't over till it's over.

[nrc]

Not even a year has passed since this interesting discussion.

I still don't think the DP01 s going to turn a wheel. I called it a pipedream because of the additional expense for the teams buying it, and not having teams with deep enough pockets. I think it's going to get a makover beore it rolls.

Other then that, instead of controlling their venues like I thought they would, it sounds like a 50/50 deal with joint decision making.

It ain't over till it's over.

A 50/50 deal appears to be on the table now where only a year ago Tony George rejected any suggestion of shared ownership. It's pretty clear who is over the barrel here.

Artful backpeddling on the DP01 - "I still don't think it will turn a wheel" ... "I think it will get a makeover before it rolls." This sounds like the same stuff we heard about the new Atlantic chasis.

If teams can't afford new chasis KK and Forsythe will buy them and lease them out. The actual cost to teams will not be the huge leap that people like to imply. The new chasis will be an expense, but the cost of spares will be more controlled. It could be that a new, more cost effective, package will actually attract teams the same way the new Atlantic package has.

[pchall]

A 50/50 deal appears to be on the table now where only a year ago Tony George rejected any suggestion of shared ownership. It's pretty clear who is over the barrel here.

You're right. Rushing into a "merger" right would only bail out TG and the IRL and leave CCWS and its fans with an unsatisfactory set of compromises and in the end leave TG in a position where his ego and idiocy will alway be a problem.

Kalkhoven and Forsythe need to go slowly in this area while continuing to build Champ Car on their own model. Roll out the DP01 and get ready for 2007 with no thoughts of merger changing plans or bogging things down.

[jonovision_man]

.

[gjc2]

Rushing into a "merger" right would only bail out TG and the IRL and leave CCWS and its fans with an unsatisfactory set of compromises and in the end leave TG in a position where his ego and idiocy will alway be a problem.

I don't think a merger will ever happen. I believe TG is only talking about it in an effort to hold off defections by his biggest teams. His saying it would be in 2008 tells me he's not committed to the idea, if he was, it could be done for '07.

I hope a merger doesn't happen. The only value the TG has is the Indianapolis 500. How much of the IRL would we have to take to get it?

The OWRS principals should just continue to build the series. Next year, with the new car, will be a big leap for Champ Car.

[Insomniac]

Not even a year has passed since this interesting discussion.

I still don't think the DP01 s going to turn a wheel. I called it a pipedream because of the additional expense for the teams buying it, and not having teams with deep enough pockets. I think it's going to get a makover beore it rolls.

Other then that, instead of controlling their venues like I thought they would, it sounds like a 50/50 deal with joint decision making.

It ain't over till it's over.

Almost every team can afford a new chassis now. The new chassis will happen exactly as planned. If there is a merger, I can't see Cosworth and Panoz getting screwed. The IRL chassis is terrible on the road/street and the engine power is a joke on the road/street. The new chassis can handle ovals and the engine has the power. It makes a lot more sense to go with ChampCar's chassis/engine than the IRL's.

[fourrunner]

IF they do merge it has to be new & exciting, that's imperitive to motivate fans & develop new ones

From all I've heard (all forms) its the new Champ Car Chassis, & Cosworth power, with Honda ... But I doubt that they will allow Mfg. Support of Teams ... Cosworth has no incentive to do that ! Plus Champ Car is to far in on the Panoz Chassis to Change now !

That's if the "merge" is going to happen in 2007

I'm betting that if it doesn't hppen in 2007, enough Teams will jump from IRL to Champ Car to negate the worth of a Merge !

Just enter Indy & it's done !

[Racing Truth]

You're right. Rushing into a "merger" right would only bail out TG and the IRL and leave CCWS and its fans with an unsatisfactory set of compromises and in the end leave TG in a position where his ego and idiocy will alway be a problem.

Kalkhoven and Forsythe need to go slowly in this area while continuing to build Champ Car on their own model. Roll out the DP01 and get ready for 2007 with no thoughts of merger changing plans or bogging things down.

TDS. :gomer: While ChampCar is better off, let's get real here. Neither side is in a position to have a "superiority complex."