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Sir, why are you shooting at the very people trying to help you?
"Well, we haven't had food in 2 days. The new Nike's I obtained, shrank in the flood water and my feet are killing me while I carry this 27" HDTV around on my shoulder. If you can't understand why that doesn't make me a little testy then I don't know what to tell ya." :gomer:
Michaelhatesfans
09-01-05, 01:22 PM
This is really turning into a Mad Max scene. This is survival.
Last night on the radio the Parish sherriff was saying that rescue boats were going out in convoys since the rescuers were being attacked. Now they can't even do that.
Shooting at helos, cops looting gun stores to pull the ammo out (guns are long gone), evacs being halted...
It's a horrific situation. The people on the ground have gone too long without help, and now the people who are stealing just to survive are going to be lumped in with the douchebags who have been stealing stereos and flat screens. I wouldn't want to be the guardsman or cop who shoots someone for trying to get some baby formula back to whats left of his house. "Zero tolerance?" They might want to rethink that.
:(
Tell that to this guy: linky (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?m=/c/pictures/2005/09/02/mn_katrina_schoolbus.jpg&f=/n/a/2005/09/01/national/a071104D97.DTL)
Glad to see someone stepping up. :thumbup:
I really like seeing stuff like this. With all the idiots out there shooting at rescuers and stealing flat-screens that won't have power to run them for months, it's great to see the good & determined side of people.
from cnn
New Orleans hospital halts patient evacuations after coming under sniper fire, a doctor who witnessed the incident says. :mad:
redmist
09-01-05, 02:49 PM
Yours is positive at least. I've had the chorus of The Tragically Hip's New Orleans is Sinking stuck in my head for the past few days. Make it stop!
But seriously, the news coming out of this area just keeps getting worse. Now there's cholera and typhoid fears due to the water/people/sewage mixture. I've never been so thankful that my area has snow in my entire life.
i hear you,i've been singing that song in my head every time i see the footage coming out of n.o.
TKGAngel
09-01-05, 02:54 PM
from cnn
New Orleans hospital halts patient evacuations after coming under sniper fire, a doctor who witnessed the incident says. :mad:
Completely unreal. People are complaining that they aren't being helped, and then yahoo's try to stop the people from helping. :mad: Something tells me more people are going to die in the aftermath of the storm than actually died in the storm itself.
One of the radio conglomerates around here is filling up a semi with donations of food & water and sending it down there. I sincerely hope the driver is armed, or the cargo could be toast before it even gets to the people that need it.
I really like seeing stuff like this. With all the idiots out there shooting at rescuers and stealing flat-screens that won't have power to run them for months, it's great to see the good & determined side of people.
Aye. More good karma:
Americans opening spare rooms to evacuees (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/Katrina.SpareRooms.ap/index.html)
-Kevin
racer2c
09-01-05, 03:06 PM
I've had "When the Levy Breaks" by Zep.
devilmaster
09-01-05, 03:28 PM
For me, it hasn't been a song, perse, but a book.
Air America by Chris Robbins.... (yes, yes, the book was the basis for that stupid movie)
But the book is an amazing non-fiction account, and tells of the real stories behind the CIA air arm in IndoChina.
In that book, the pilots talked about the last days as communist forces took over town after town. Stories of how cities didn't actually fall to the VietCong, they disintegrated all by themselves before the VC arrived. As i've read the stories out of NO, my mind keeps going back to that book....
I'm watching/listening to a press conference with the LA governor via the WWL webcast. According to the gov and her people some of the more sensational stuff the press is reporting about NO isn't actually happening. Supposedly the press is reporting on rumors. (imagine that :rolleyes: ) I expect the truth is somewhere in between.
Five Feet High And Rising
Johnny Cash
My mama always taught me that good things come from adversity if we put our faith in the Lord.
We couldn't see much good in the flood waters when they
were causing us to have to leave home,
But when the water went down,
We found that it had washed a load of rich black bottom dirt across our land.
The following year we had the best cotton crop we'd ever had.
I remember hearing:
How high's the water, mama?
Two feet high and risin'
How high's the water, papa?
Two feet high and risin'
We can make it to the road in a homemade boat
That's the only thing we got left that'll float
It's already over all the wheat and the oats,
Two feet high and risin'
How high's the water, mama?
Three feet high and risin'
How high's the water, papa?
Three feet high and risin'
Well, the hives are gone,
I've lost my bees
The chickens are sleepin'
In the willow trees
Cow's in water up past her knees,
Three feet high and risin'
How high's the water, mama?
Four feet high and risin'
How high's the water, papa?
Four feet high and risin'
Hey, come look through the window pane,
The bus is comin', gonna take us to the train
Looks like we'll be blessed with a little more rain,
4 feet high and risin'
How high's the water, mama?
Five feet high and risin'
How high's the water, papa?
Five feet high and risin'
Well, the rails are washed out north of town
We gotta head for higher ground
We can't come back till the water comes down,
Five feet high and risin'
Well, it's five feet high and risin'
oddlycalm
09-01-05, 03:56 PM
It's a horrific situation. The people on the ground have gone too long without help That pretty much sums it up. Once panic, desperation and despair set in, the outcome is never going to be pretty. If fresh water doesn't reach many of these people today, tomorrow there are going to be a lot of dead people, and those people know who they are.
Evacuation to central areas is proceeding, the problem is that they aren't getting moved on from there. The large number of people that were evacuated to the convention center have no water or food and there are dead bodies laying in the open ad the mess at the Superdome is worse.
Terry Ebbert, head of the city's emergency operations, warned that the slow evacuation at the Superdome had become an "incredibly explosive situation," and he bitterly complained that FEMA was not offering enough help. "FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control."
I guess desperation is happening on the management level as well. My comment is that they better figure it out quickly.
oc
Michaelhatesfans
09-01-05, 04:02 PM
I'm watching/listening to a press conference with the LA governor via the WWL webcast. According to the gov and her people some of the more sensational stuff the press is reporting about NO isn't actually happening. Supposedly the press is reporting on rumors. (imagine that :rolleyes: ) I expect the truth is somewhere in between.
I don't know, some of the most damning things that I've heard are coming from the authorities, so someone has their wires crossed...
"Hospitals are trying to evacuate," said Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Cheri Ben-Iesan, spokesman at the city emergency operations center. "At every one of them, there are reports that as the helicopters come in people are shooting at them. There are people just taking pot shots at police and at helicopters, telling them, 'You better come get my family."'
Richard Zuschlag, president of Acadian Ambulance Service Inc., described the chaos at a suburban hospital.
"We tried to airlift supplies into Kenner Memorial Hospital late last evening and were confronted by an unruly crowd with guns, and the pilots refused to land," he said.
"My medics were crying, screaming for help. When we tried to land at Kenner, my pilots got scared because 100 people were on the helipad and some of them had guns. He was frightened and would not land."
http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/09/01/katrina.hospitals.ap/index.html
Some FEMA rescue operations were suspended where gunfire has broken out, Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke said in Washington. "In areas where our employees have been determined to potentially be in danger, we have pulled back," he said.
A National Guard military policeman was shot in the leg as the two scuffled for the MP's rifle, police Capt. Ernie Demmo said. The man was arrested.
"These are good people. These are just scared people," Demmo said.
Tenet HealthCare Corp. asked authorities late Wednesday to help evacuate a fully functioning hospital in Gretna, La., after a supply truck carrying food, water and medical supplies was held up at gunpoint.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168112,00.html
TKGAngel
09-01-05, 04:11 PM
CNN is also reporting that singer Fats Domino is missing, and was last seen at his New Orleans home before the storm.
CNN is also reporting that singer Fats Domino is missing, and was last seen at his New Orleans home before the storm.
I had no idea Fats was still with us:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168122,00.html
-Kevin
this is sounding more and more like one massive cluster****.. :shakehead:
25K to the 'Dome, another 25K invited to san antone, location yet to be established.
Houston and Dallas ISD's allowing enrollment to evacuees, TCU, SMU, and Rice allowing Tulane students in... I guess state school kids get hosed at this point...
Aggy inviting Louisiana football to be played at their stadium :rolleyes: how about you take some students instead dipsh#t?
http://www2.hornfans.com/wwwthreads/images/icons/texasflag.gif
oddlycalm
09-01-05, 04:46 PM
oops, DP
"There are multiple people dying at the convention center," Lawrence said. "There was an old woman, dead in a wheelchair with a blanket draped over her, pushed up against a wall. Horrible, horrible conditions.
"We saw a man who went into a seizure, literally dying right in front of us."
People were "being forced to live like animals," Lawrence said, surrounded by piles of trash and feces.
He said thousands of people were just laying in the ground outside the building -- many old, or sick, or caring for infants and small children.
Charity Hospital has no electricity, no water and the only food available is couple of cans of vegetables and graham crackers.
Evacuations by boat were halted after armed looters threatened medics, and overturned one of their boats.
The sniper attacks were the latest incidents of violence that have disrupted efforts to help people in the flooded city.
A Louisiana National Guard official told CNN Thursday morning that between 50,000 and 60,000 people had converged at evacuation points near the Superdome hoping to get on one of the buses out of town.
"It's no longer just evacuees from the Superdome, as citizens who were holed up in high-rise office buildings and hotels saw buses moving into the dome, they realized this is an evacuation point," Lt. Col. Pete Schneider of the Louisiana National Guard said.
Officers told CNN they lacked manpower and steady communications to properly do their jobs -- and that they needed help to prevent the widespread looting and violence now prevalent in the city.
A police officer working in downtown New Orleans said police were siphoning gas from abandoned vehicles in an effort to keep their squad cars running, CNN's Lawrence reported.
The officer said police are "on their own" for food and water, scrounging up what they can from anybody who is generous enough to give them some -- and that they have no communication whatsoever.
link CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.impact/index.html)
Outside the center, people complained that they were evacuated, taken to the convention hall by bus, dropped off and given nothing.
At least seven bodies were scattered outside, and hungry people broke through the steel doors to a food service entrance and began pushing out pallets of water and juice and whatever else they could find.
An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered with a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet.
“I don’t treat my dog like that,” Daniel Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair. “I buried my dog.”
Doctors at two desperately crippled hospitals with 360 patients called The Associated Press pleading for rescue, saying they were nearly out of food and power and had been forced to move patients to higher floors to escape looters.
“We have been trying to call the mayor’s office, we have been trying to call the governor’s office. ... We have tried to use any inside pressure we can. We are turning to you. Please help us,” said Dr. Norman McSwain, chief of trauma surgery at Charity Hospital.
Police were asking residents to give up any firearms before they evacuated neighborhoods because officers desperately needed the firepower: Some officers who had been stranded on the roof of a hotel said they were shot at.
MSNBC link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/)
unreal :shakehead
What I would like to know is -- given that the mayor etc. knew the potential result of the storm before it hit and before he ordered the evacuation -- where were all these buses BEFORE the storm hit? If so many thousands of people had no means to leave the city, why was no effort made to help them BEFORE ten feet of toxic water was flowing down the streets?
I know.
Hindsight=20/20.
What I would like to know is -- given that the mayor etc. knew the potential result of the storm before it hit and before he ordered the evacuation -- where were all these buses BEFORE the storm hit? If so many thousands of people had no means to leave the city, why was no effort made to help them BEFORE ten feet of toxic water was flowing down the streets?
I know.
Hindsight=20/20.
I'm pretty sure the buses being used to transport people to the Astrodome came from Texas. I doubt there are many functioning NO city buses around any more.
The LA governor said today that the NO mayor did send the city buses around to try to pick people up. I guess people just refused to evacuate.
the expected track was cat 5 eye to west of NO, the last days' change took it eastward and weakened it... you'd hope they'd have some kind of national guard ready to be mobilized just in case... then again, an entire city is now a lake...
oddlycalm
09-01-05, 05:56 PM
There is a total disconnect between what the FEMA director on the scene said at his news conference and what is being reported from New Orleans first hand.
Tony Zabato, a reporter on MSNBC, just came from the Convention Center described brought footage and described at 5:35EDT a scene that is totally at odds with what the FEMA director described. Zabato said there are zero police or guard present and he witnessed people dying in front of him from dehydration. Whatever is going to be done is going to have to be done quickly or it will be too late for a lot of people.
oc
the expected track was cat 5 eye to west of NO, the last days' change took it eastward and weakened it...
Nope. Go check the NHC archives (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2005/refresh/KATRINA+shtml/145512.shtml?). The expected track never took the storm west of NOLA. The cone of uncertainty extended west but the expected track was pretty close to NOLA from Sat until landfall. Also, the NHC was way behind on forecasting Kat anywhere close to cat 5 strength. Joe Bastardi from Accuweather.com was pounding the desk as early as 3pm EDT on Fri that Kat was gonna explode into a cat 5 storm. Keep in mind that Kat went from a 115mph storm into a 175mph storm in ~12 hours. Absolutely incredible!
-Kevin
I'm pretty sure it wasn't from the NHC, I think the day or so after it hit florida, I saw some model on TV showing it as a cat 5 and hitting new orleans... I was thinking "yea right, that ****'s never right..."
Dallas is taking in 25K now too.
http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html
http://www2.hornfans.com/wwwthreads/images/icons/texasflag.gif
holy ****ing ****... http://www.sunherald.com/mld/thesunherald/12528829.htm
"man kills sister over bag of ice" :eek: :(
As I recall, the storm got shoved by a dry air mass to the West which is not only what pushed it slightly East but also weakened it.
Thank God.
The descriptions from inside NO remind me a little of that old Kurt Russel movie, "Escape from New York"
Sounds like they need to send Snake Pliskin in to get some of those people out of there.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002463400_katrinasuperdome01.html
:(
unbelieveable... anyone who rapes a child ought to have their **** cut off and shoved down their ****ing throat. Thankfully the Astrodome should have a bit more law & order to kick ass and take names...
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/12529675.htm
13 y.o boy saves his family
:)
San Antone's hosting em at Kelly AFB supposedly.
Michaelhatesfans
09-01-05, 10:16 PM
If you thought the past few days were ugly, wait until tomorrow folks.
Remember in junior high when they talked about the experiment where you put rats in a cage, then stop feeding and watering them? They destroy one another. Ruthlessly. It's nature. That's what we have to look forward to tomorrow.
Why aren't Americans more outraged about the ineptitude being shown in this relief "effort?" For years we've heard that a direct hit on New Orleans was the worst case scenario. The flooding, the logistical problems... it's all been discussed before. So, we finally got the worst case. Are we really ok with the idea that no one bothered planning for the worst case scenario??? I hear people talk alot about fuel prices being a pain in the ass, but very little about why this is being allowed to happen. As of Thursday, we still can't get information to people on the ground as to where they need to go for help??? That's not ****ing good enough.
Heads should be rolling over this. :flame:
JLMannin
09-01-05, 10:27 PM
80% of the city below sea level. I'll assume that this was known before 08/30/05. The entire downtown surrounded by levees was a big clue.
There was a mandatory evacuation called. Last I heard, a mandatory evacuation means get the hell out, not stand on your fridge with an ax in case you need to chop through the ceiling to get to the attic
We have satelites now, hurricanes are no longer a suprise like Galvaston near the turn of the century.
For the people who lacked the ability to evacuate by not having the means to get out, I have compassion for. Those who had the opportunity and ability to leave but elected not to, it's hard for me to feel sorry for their plight.
B3RACER1a
09-01-05, 11:13 PM
While not trying to get political or anything, I think everyone got caught off gaurd...locally and federally. We should have been prepared plain and simple, and werent. Now it just takes a while for everything to get organized. :(
Bad boys, Bad boys...
NEW ORLEANS (AP) _ New Orleans descended into anarchy Thursday as corpses lay abandoned in street medians, fights and fires broke out, cops turned in their badges and the governor declared war on looters who have made the city a menacing landscape of disorder and fear. "They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," Gov. Kathleen Blanco said of 300 National Guard troops who landed in New Orleans fresh from duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will." :eek:
there's an article in Popular Mechanics from '01 talking about how much havoc a Cat 2 storm would create in NOLA....
apparently no one in charge of the national guard reads popular mechanics...
this **** is 4 days old and FEMA has failed miserably.... "the media's overhyping this the media's overhyping this"
meanwhile you have a Spanish MP phoning her embassy telling them what a pathetic situation it is at the convention center, yea, sure, "hype" :rolleyes:
extramundane
09-02-05, 12:03 AM
While not trying to get political or anything, I think everyone got caught off gaurd...locally and federally. We should have been prepared plain and simple, and werent. Now it just takes a while for everything to get organized. :(
The Army Corps of Engineers has been trying to work on the levees for years, but their budget got decimated to pay for the Iraq War. A great number of the Louisiana Nat'l Guard (and their equipment) are in the Middle East instead of in Louisiana. Nobody Federally got caught off guard.
Some of you need to review the rules. If this topic can't be discussed without political commentary then it can't be discussed at all.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't from the NHC, I think the day or so after it hit florida, I saw some model on TV showing it as a cat 5 and hitting new orleans... I was thinking "yea right, that ****'s never right..."
FYI, weatherunderground.com is a good site to see the various model tracks for these storms. By Sun almost all of the models had Kat in or about NOLA (which is when I said oh ****).
-Kevin
Re the Astrodome: After close to 5,000 people the Fire Marshal says that no more can come in. They literally turned the buses around and said to go to another city.
:mad: :mad: :mad:
I understand the cops are overwhelmed, and the Guard takes time to mobilize, but what about escorting the ambulances, boats, supplies, etc. with some of these:
http://jiatelin.jschina.com.cn/heli/gfx/ah64/ah64_1.jpg
They're real handy for scattering punks.
eiregosod
09-02-05, 12:33 AM
Re the Astrodome: After close to 5,000 people the Fire Marshal says that no more can come in. They literally turned the buses around and said to go to another city.
:mad: :mad: :mad:
if a stadium can only hold 5k, then the 25k in the Superdome must have endured much worse conditions.
eiregosod
09-02-05, 12:35 AM
I understand the cops are overwhelmed, and the Guard takes time to mobilize, but what about escorting the ambulances, boats, supplies, etc. with some of these:
http://jiatelin.jschina.com.cn/heli/gfx/ah64/ah64_1.jpg
They're real handy for scattering punks.
:down: , why not send the nearest available infantry unit in there, that'll sort 'em ;)
(the apache would make the Watts riots look like a turkey shoot :p )
There's an Apache squadron at Ellington Field in SE Houston, just 5 hours drivetime from NOLA....
(CNN) -- The director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency said Thursday those New Orleans residents who chose not to heed warnings to evacuate before Hurricane Katrina bear some responsibility for their fates. Ted Koppel laid into this mfr on the air tonight. "we didnt expect this" "with all respect, everyone knew there were 100,000 people left behind in NOLA, people have known for years what a class 5 storm could do to the city" and went on and on, then the FEMA dude lied about feeding ppl in the convention center...
eiregosod
09-02-05, 12:50 AM
i wonder how far the poorest people could walk by foot.
i wonder how far the poorest people could walk by foot.
I think if I had adequate supplies, I could manage 15-20 miles a day. Now if I was carrying a couple of babies or responsible for an elderly relative without supplies, maybe 5. I dunno.
eiregosod
09-02-05, 01:45 AM
I think if I had adequate supplies, I could manage 15-20 miles a day. Now if I was carrying a couple of babies or responsible for an elderly relative without supplies, maybe 5. I dunno.
Just to get out of the range of the hurricane would have taken 5 days (even walking 20 miles per day (6 hours walking per day)
Michaelhatesfans
09-02-05, 02:36 AM
i wonder how far the poorest people could walk by foot.
Maybe a wee bit faster than the elderly, the handicapped, people in wheelchairs, those who are hooked up to medical equipment for survival, those whose young kids in tow, those already in hospitals for various medical treatments....
But, as you say, even in the best case walking would have merely put you in the middle of nowhere, completely exposed to the elements when the storm hit.
Michaelhatesfans
09-02-05, 02:57 AM
I think if I had adequate supplies, I could manage 15-20 miles a day. Now if I was carrying a couple of babies or responsible for an elderly relative without supplies, maybe 5. I dunno.
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050901/i/r2221102800.jpg?x=380&y=284&sig=G_ClOlyD5vwBLO0SnXbvcQ--
Seems to be a lot of arm-chair quarterbacking going on here. Do you folks honestly believe the people responding to this crisis aren't doing everything they possibly can?
While I think the city and state obviously could have done a better job planning for this sort of situation I'm not so sure it's possible to really be fully prepared for a disaster of this magnitude.
Seems to be a lot of arm-chair quarterbacking going on here. Do you folks honestly believe the people responding to this crisis aren't doing everything they possibly can?
While I think the city and state obviously could have done a better job planning for this sort of situation I'm not so sure it's possible to really be fully prepared for a disaster of this magnitude.
FEMA's Mike Brown was just on the Today show, his spiel is getting old. The guy clearly has no idea what's really going on in the city. Claims the people at the dome are getting plenty of food and water, yet I see no people with water in their hands. Apparently their is a complete lack of communication between local, state and federal agencies in charge.
This is an embarrasment.
I think if I had adequate supplies, I could manage 15-20 miles a day. Now if I was carrying a couple of babies or responsible for an elderly relative without supplies, maybe 5. I dunno.
Did officials make any effort to provide for those without their own transportation? Seems like any reasonable emergency plan would allow for busing the poor and elderly out of town.
What percentage of the people who stayed in NO were there because they really didn't have any choice?
Did officials make any effort to provide for those without their own transportation? Seems like any reasonable emergency plan would allow for busing the poor and elderly out of town.
What percentage of the people who stayed in NO were there because they really didn't have any choice?
I posted earlier that the city supposedly sent the city buses through town to try to pick people up. I have no idea how many people took advantage of that. Heck, I heard a report this morning that there are still people refusing to leave their flooded homes.
Instead of stealing a TV maybe they should of stolen a car?
I posted earlier that the city supposedly sent the city buses through town to try to pick people up. I have no idea how many people took advantage of that. Heck, I heard a report this morning that there are still people refusing to leave their flooded homes.
I don't know about the first part but the second is true, which makes the first more believable. Also, I keep hearing commentators saying that these are poor people with no transportation. But I keep seeing photos and video of cars underwater in these poor neighborhoods. I also have yet to see a single interview with someone who has said, "I couldn't leave. I didn't have a car." But I have seen several people interviewed who have said, "I should have listened. I should have left."
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/09/02/national/02cnd-storm1.274.jpg
some railyards south of the quarter...
Chaos and gunfire hampered efforts to evacuate the Superdome, and, Superintendent P. Edward Compass III of the New Orleans Police Department said, armed thugs have taken control of the secondary makeshift shelter at the convention center. Superintendent Compass said that the thugs repelled eight squads of 11 officers each he had sent to secure the place and that rapes and assaults were occurring unimpeded in the neighboring streets as criminals "preyed upon" passers-by, including stranded tourists.
I don't know about the first part but the second is true, which makes the first more believable.
I'm only basing that on what the LA governor said during a press conference yesterday. No idea what actually happened. It does appear that regardless how good an evacuation plan might be, (and I question how good the NO plan was) there isn't much the government can do if people refuse to leave.
Chaos and gunfire hampered efforts to evacuate the Superdome, and, Superintendent P. Edward Compass III of the New Orleans Police Department said, armed thugs have taken control of the secondary makeshift shelter at the convention center. Superintendent Compass said that the thugs repelled eight squads of 11 officers each he had sent to secure the place and that rapes and assaults were occurring unimpeded in the neighboring streets as criminals "preyed upon" passers-by, including stranded tourists.
Here is something strange. Last night on CNN I heard two or three different people interviewed via phone from the convention center and they did not describe their situation as 'armed thugs have taken control'. :confused:
Video journalist this morning from the convention center. No thugs there nor gunfire, just a lot of people dropped there with no one in charge. A helicopter finally showed up and dropped food and water onto the parking lot ala like a food drop for cattle. There's no one there to distribute the food and water properly, no one. The weak, sick and elderly didn't get anything as the supplies were rushed by the hungry thirsty crowd. This can't be real, this can't be happening in this country and yet it is. I have lost any confidence in goverment to able to help in the event of a disaster. This is now the story of the hurricane. :shakehead
Did officials make any effort to provide for those without their own transportation? Seems like any reasonable emergency plan would allow for busing the poor and elderly out of town.
More info, from the NO mayor's press conference on Sunday:
This morning, the Superdome has already opened for people with special needs. If you have a medical condition, if you're on dialysis or some other condition, we want you to expeditiously move to the Superdome.
At noon today, the Superdome will then be opened up as a refuge of last resort, where we will start to take citizens that cannot evacuate.
But let me emphasize, the first choice for every citizen is to figure out a way to leave the city. And I'm asking all of the churches. We sent out a fax to all the churches that we could this morning, basically alerting them to exactly what we're doing, and asking them to buddy up, to find members in their congregations, to check on the senior citizens or a citizen who may not -- who may not have the means and is totally reliant upon public transportation to get around.
We will have pickup sites that the Regional Transit Authority will be -- at noon, they will start to make runs from the pickup sites to the Superdome, to get people into the Superdome as a last resort. Keep in mind, a hurricane, a Cat 5, with high winds, is most likely will knock out all electricity in the city, and, therefore, the Superdome is not going to be a very comfortable place at some point in time. So we're encouraging everyone to leave.
But if you can't leave, here are the 10 sites, that starting at noon, that you will be able to go to and there will be RTA buses that will pick you up for free.
More:
QUESTION: Mayor, Mayor, what should folks bring to these shelters? And another -- and the second question, how do you prepare? Because we have never been through this. We've been through these situations, but talking about (INAUDIBLE). How does the city begin to prepare for that?
NAGIN: Well, all we can do is basically continue to advise citizens as we get information. This is a once in probably a lifetime event. The city of New Orleans has never seen a hurricane of this strength to hit it almost directly, which is what they're projecting right now.
What we're trying to do is keep the public informed, not create panic, but create an atmosphere of seriousness, and also to present options to the public.
Right now, we are emphasizing leaving the city. That's what we think is the best thing. If you can't leave the city and you have to come to the Superdome, come with enough food, perishable items to last for three to five days. Come with blankets, with pillows. No weapons, no alcohol, no drugs. You know, this is like the governor said, you're going on a camping trip. If you don't know what that's like, just bring enough stuff for you to be able to sleep and be comfortable. It's not going to be the best environment, but at least you will be safe.
link (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/28/bn.04.html)
Obviously, it seems, too many people ignored the warnings and instructions. :(
Michaelhatesfans
09-02-05, 10:50 AM
Seems to be a lot of arm-chair quarterbacking going on here. Do you folks honestly believe the people responding to this crisis aren't doing everything they possibly can?
While I think the city and state obviously could have done a better job planning for this sort of situation I'm not so sure it's possible to really be fully prepared for a disaster of this magnitude.
Funny how my comments from my armchair echo those of the quarterbacks...
"A lot of people working hard to help those who've been affected, and I want to thank the people for their efforts," Bush said before leaving the White House for a tour of the devastated areas in Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana.
"The results are not acceptable."
Bush's visit comes as stranded residents and frustrated officials expressed anger that relief has not come.
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin lashed out at state and federal authorities saying they were "thinking small" in the face of the massive crisis.
Nagin said he needs military troops to provide security and 500 buses to take people stranded by Hurricane Katrina out of the city.
So far, he said, the promises are unfulfilled.
"I keep hearing that it's coming. This is coming. That is coming. My answer to that is B.S. Where is the beef?"
Nagin called for a moratorium on press conferences "until the resources are in this city."
"They're feeding the people a line of bull, and they are spinning and people are dying," he said."http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html
More info, from the NO mayor's press conference on Sunday:
More:
link (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/28/bn.04.html)
Obviously, it seems, too many people ignored the warnings and instructions. :(
Yep, it's there fault that we can't seem to get food or water to them now. :rolleyes:
Michaelhatesfans
09-02-05, 11:00 AM
I think it's clear that some are still there because they couldn't leave, and others are there because they made a foolish decision to stay. But right now, we don't know who is who, and - to me at least, it doesn't matter. I just see thousands of Americans in desperate need of help. At this point they're all victims, as far as I'm concerned. This country has the means to get them help, and we haven't. That makes me sick. Almost as sick as saying, "Well, it serves them right." No one deserves to be left for five days in that hell without food and water.
Yep, it's there fault that we can't seem to get food or water to them now. :rolleyes:
I'm not sure exactly why it's taking longer then desired to get supplies to these poor people. I do believe those responsible are doing everything humanly possible.
Here is something strange. Last night on CNN I heard two or three different people interviewed via phone from the convention center and they did not describe their situation as 'armed thugs have taken control'. :confused:
spanish MP talking to her embassy recounted multiple instances of people being trampled in a rush for the bus, dead ppl lying around, severe dehydration, and that her and her family went to the upper stories where there was a less nervous environment... said only the strongest ppl would make it to the busses, obviously...
and how difficult is it to set up a helo drop of supplies at the convention center? it took 5 bloody days for that to happen? ridiculous. the rest of the situation is out of control, but you'd think they'd try to get supplies to the place where they're dropping everyone off
Michaelhatesfans
09-02-05, 11:17 AM
I'm not sure exactly why it's taking longer then desired to get supplies to these poor people. I do believe those responsible are doing everything humanly possible.
I disagree - I mean, I think there are people there who are doing everything that they possibly can. But this tragedy has been predicted for years, and this is the best that we can do? I refuse to accept that.
I disagree - I mean, I think there are people there who are doing everything that they possibly can. But this tragedy has been predicted for years, and this is the best that we can do? I refuse to accept that.
The country has never dealt with a disaster of this magnitude before. Isn't there a saying in the military about plans not surviving the first battle? We will learn and do a better job the next time hopefully.
I think it's clear that some are still there because they couldn't leave, and others are there because they made a foolish decision to stay. But right now, we don't know who is who, and - to me at least, it doesn't matter. I just see thousands of Americans in desperate need of help. At this point they're all victims, as far as I'm concerned. This country has the means to get them help, and we haven't. That makes me sick. Almost as sick as saying, "Well, it serves them right." No one deserves to be left for five days in that hell without food and water.Great post.
I'm not sure exactly why it's taking longer then desired to get supplies to these poor people. I do believe those responsible are doing everything humanly possible.Also, great post.
Something's totally effed up (no ****, Sherlock), but I believe that those that are there helping are doing extraordinary things in ****ty conditions.
I also really, really wonder what the real story is. I just can't believe the news reports. Denial? Perhaps.
But the news stories all seem to include the same info, even days later. Someone took a shot at a Chinook. Did it really happen? It's being reported as widespread. Is it? A child gets raped in a overcrowded dome?? How the **** can that happen? Where's the vigilantees to stop that ****?!?
I dunno, maybe I'm reading too many stories from the same source (AP) and not reading on-the-scene reports, but this is uneffinbelievable.
All I can think of is Jessica Lynch. Poor girl gets hurt in a wreck, suddenly the media paints her as Ramba, fighting to the last bullet. Yes, this was from "official" sources, but still. I'm wondering what the real story is.
[\rambling]
The country has never dealt with a disaster of this magnitude before. Isn't there a saying in the military about plans not surviving the first battle? We will learn and do a better job the next time hopefully.
Nonsense. Just saw the newsreport with Bush meeting with Miss. and 'Bama governors. Even though those area's have seen horrible devestation, worse than NO, the governors actually laid out what was going on and how they planned to move forward. There was actually plans, things being carried out, priorities, etc. THEY ACTUALLY SEEM TO HAVE AN IDEA OF WHAT'S GOING ON AND WHAT THEY NEED TO DO NEXT.
In NO they can't figure out how to get water to people. :shakehead Another report from Charity hospital pleading for evacuation, they had a call out yesterday to evac them immediately as they had run out of water and the lower floors were being looted.
There is no excuse for this nor is "we'll do better next time" an acceptable answer.
Michaelhatesfans
09-02-05, 11:53 AM
The country has never dealt with a disaster of this magnitude before. Isn't there a saying in the military about plans not surviving the first battle? We will learn and do a better job the next time hopefully.
I understand that, to a point... But every time a hurricane even takes a sniff at the gulf coast we are constantly reminded how vulnerable New Orleans is - that it sits mainly below sea level, that the levies are vulnerable, etc... This is the worst case scenario, the one that we always feared. The one that was a matter of when, not if. We knew it could/would happen, yet we didn't seem to have a plan for how to deal with it. We can do better than that.
Any of you that are saying, not enough is being done. I will pick you up at the Houston Airport and drive you as far as I can to the effected area so that you can do something. Bitching on an internet racing forum isn't doing something. I have a 3/4 ton truck and access to a flat bed trailer. I can haul you and as much supplies as you want to take with you.
Deal?
I understand that, to a point... But every time a hurricane even takes a sniff at the gulf coast we are constantly reminded how vulnerable New Orleans is - that it sits mainly below sea level, that the levies are vulnerable, etc... This is the worst case scenario, the one that we always feared. The one that was a matter of when, not if. We knew it could/would happen, yet we didn't seem to have a plan for how to deal with it. We can do better than that.
I agree but, who is responsible for that plan? The feds or the state? As cart7 pointed out, the governors of Miss. and Alabama seem to have somewhat of a handle on things. It seems strange to me the best the city and state could come up with is the superdome, which was expected to flood if the worst happened.
I am surprised that it doesn't seem that FEMA had previously identified evacuation sites and the means to transport large quantities of people. On the other hand somebody managed to get a hold of 500 buses virtually overnight.
Any of you that are saying, not enough is being done. I will pick you up at the Houston Airport and drive you as far as I can to the effected area so that you can do something.
The past four days have shown that individual volunteers won't cut it. You need command and control facilities, security, transportation, and some place to put everyone where you can feed, clothe and house them. But most importantly you need a plan.
Right now everyone is doing it solo. Ambulances try to get to hospitals and get shot at; Supplies are delivered, but taken by the strongest; Buses are mobbed; people take pot shots at helicopters. There is no direction.
"I need reinforcements, I need troops, man. I need 500 buses," New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said in a television interview Friday morning. "Get every dog-gone Greyhound bus line in the country and get that [expletive] moving to New Orleans ... This is a major, major, major deal. I can't emphasize that enough."
This is from the guy who's supposed to be in charge. He doesn't sound in charge of JACK **** to me. Basically, his plan is for someone else to come bail his ass out.
Any of you that are saying, not enough is being done. I will pick you up at the Houston Airport and drive you as far as I can to the effected area so that you can do something. Bitching on an internet racing forum isn't doing something. I have a 3/4 ton truck and access to a flat bed trailer. I can haul you and as much supplies as you want to take with you.
Deal?
Better idea. The stuff is in place to get the job done that needs to be done. They just need leadership that doesn't have an *** for a brain to lead.
I'll volunteer. After you've dropped me off, pickup the mayor of NO, the Governor of LA, Michael Brown, head of FEMA and the head of the LA National Guard and drop them in the nearest swamp cause they're all FIRED due to imcompetance.
This is from the guy who's supposed to be in charge. He doesn't sound in charge of JACK **** to me. Basically, his plan is for someone else to come bail his ass out.
he's in charge of a police force without much equipment, and whose officers are turning in badges, what's he supposed to do?
Prepare for the worst before it happens.
TravelGal
09-02-05, 01:03 PM
This is from the guy who's supposed to be in charge. He doesn't sound in charge of JACK **** to me. Basically, his plan is for someone else to come bail his ass out.
Actually, I looked at it exactly the opposite way. This is the only guy who seems to be saying in no uncertain terms, This is what I need. Everyone else sat around way too long. The instant the first levy was breached, FULL emergency mode should have kicked in because it meant it was only a matter of a short time til the rest let go.
I couldn't sleep last night and spent a lot of time reading the electronic editions of the Times Picayune and the Sun Herald (Mobile) until I couldn't stand it any more. Stories of convoys of buses turning back because there was no "plan" to get them into the city.
Unimaginable.
This is from the guy who's supposed to be in charge. He doesn't sound in charge of JACK **** to me. Basically, his plan is for someone else to come bail his ass out.
Bingo. He sounds just like the people who are in these evac centers w/out the 3-5 days worth of food they were explicitely told to bring. There is an old saying, "Lack of proper prior planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine." There is plenty of blame to spread around on both sides.
devilmaster
09-02-05, 02:04 PM
Canada prepares to send 3 ships to the Gulf, if called upon....
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/09/02/canadian_response20050902.html
Not sure if they are going to send the DART team(Disaster Assistance Response Team) in whole, but the gear they bring and some of the expertise will be DART.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/dart.html
If i was still in, i'd be volunteering in an instant....
Racing Truth
09-02-05, 02:10 PM
I don't know about the first part but the second is true, which makes the first more believable. Also, I keep hearing commentators saying that these are poor people with no transportation. But I keep seeing photos and video of cars underwater in these poor neighborhoods. I also have yet to see a single interview with someone who has said, "I couldn't leave. I didn't have a car." But I have seen several people interviewed who have said, "I should have listened. I should have left."
I post THIS (http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=5444) just to point out the other side to that.
Note: The link is generally a political blog, but I think Cole makes a good point. Keep in mind too that over 25% of New Orleans residents live at or below poverty.
Thankfully, the Guard has come in. Strikes me as about 36 hrs. too late for some. :(
Thankfully, the Guard has come in. Strikes me as about 36 hrs. too late for some. :(
It seems as if the Guard and Reserves are in Iraq. Our military at home must be depleted at the moment.
Additionally, the law of the land makes it hard to establish martial law. Which is good to a point to protect from tyranny but, in times like this it is a true hindrance?
It seems as if the Guard and Reserves are in Iraq. Our military at home must be depleted at the moment.
Additionally, the law of the land makes it hard to establish martial law. Which is good to a point to protect from tyranny but, in times like this it is a true hindrance?
[not trying to start a 2nd amendment debate]I saw an interview with a gentleman who said a lot of people are afraid to leave the city because of the gangs. They are afraid of being killed for their car. He had a 12 gauge and a 45 in the front seat with him and his son was in the back with a 20 gauge and a 9mm. He said he was afraid he was going to have to shoot his way out of town. He made it to Baton Rouge w/out incident.[/not trying to start a 2nd amendment debate]
Racing Truth
09-02-05, 02:28 PM
At any rate, FEMA is incompetent, and Secy. Chertoff hasn't exactly been helpful either, IMHO. That along, with LA pols. and officials. This is total, bi-partisan incompetence.
It seems as if the Guard and Reserves are in Iraq. Our military at home must be depleted at the moment.
Heard somewhere over the last couple days that 20% of the guard is deployed overseas.
The troops showing up now are supposed to be from all over the country. Takes a bit of time to call them up and transport them where needed.
IMO the gov of LA dropped the ball not having her own resources on hand.
Racing Truth
09-02-05, 02:42 PM
To show you the incompetence, if you watched the 2 women speaking with Bush, it was striking that they STILL had no clue where to go, and were asking the Pres. where to go. Now, that's not at all his fault. It is FEMA and fed bureaucrats that have not inspired much confidence. :shakehead
EDIT: Along with LA officials as KLang mentions.
At any rate, FEMA is incompetent
I don't know if that is a fair accessment yet. I'm sure all the facts will come out eventually. Isn't it FEMA's job to assist the states rather the be in control?
oddlycalm
09-02-05, 02:49 PM
The obvious difference between what happened in Mississippi and Alabama and what happened in NO is that in the other places the storm hit, blew hell out of things, then moved on. The storm surge receded and things are dry. It's only a matter of sending dozers down the roads to push the refuse out of the way in order to reach people in many cases. Terrible near-total destruction, but lower population density and easier access to the survivors.
For those seeking to blame the NO city government and the victims, I suspect that if you honestly look at the scale of this disaster any thoughts of the city government being able to go it alone are obviously not realistic. New Orleans has been of the top three potential disasters on FEMA's potential hit list since well before 9/11. The other two were a terrorist strike at New York and an large magnitude earthquake in San Francisco. It should not take 4 days to get troops in sufficient number into a disaster area to keep order nor should it take that long to get supplies of fresh water.
Management foibles aside, the Coast Guard and other military rescue squads have done an amazing job (as always) in an incredibly difficult situation and have been at it non-stop since the wind slowed down to safe levels. :thumbup: The doctors, nurses and staff of the regions hospitals have also done an incredible job under impossible conditions and without much in the way of assistance from outside. :thumbup: I'm sure it was heartbreaking for those that had to tend patients rescued from hospitals to watch some die in staging areas before they could be moved on to other hospitals.
oc
Racing Truth
09-02-05, 02:55 PM
I don't know if that is a fair accessment yet. I'm sure all the facts will come out eventually. Isn't it FEMA's job to assist the states rather the be in control?
Well, as oc points out, FEMA has warned about this for years. Yes, the levees breaching was not itself predicted, but total flooding had been for yrs. By Tuesday afternoon/evening, the full scope was evident. Only today do the convoys roll in.
And yes, big ups to the individual volunteers, US Coast Guard, and others. You folks are heroes. :thumbup: :cool:
TKGAngel
09-02-05, 03:00 PM
Management foibles aside, the Coast Guard and other military rescue squads have done an amazing job (as always) in an incredibly difficult situation and have been at it non-stop since the wind slowed down to safe levels. :thumbup: The doctors, nurses and staff of the regions hospitals have also done an incredible job under impossible conditions and without much in the way of assistance from outside. :thumbup: I'm sure it was heartbreaking for those that had to tend patients rescued from hospitals to watch some die in staging areas before they could be moved on to other hospitals.
oc
Big :thumbup: to your entire post. Those people that are currently in NO and other areas helping in almost impossible conditions deserve a big thank you, not only from those they are directly helping, but from us here on the outside as well.
There's supposedly now an AP report that there is a large oil spill downriver from New Orleans. What next, locusts?
Dr. Corkski
09-02-05, 03:39 PM
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/3310/thatsracist9gl.gif
2 different news services, and I highly doubt that yahoo editors pours through the news stories they're going to post either.
What's the word on environmental cleanup? They can't just pump that water out into the gulf. Read somewhere that 50% of the buildings would have to be 'dozed due to the chemicals eating away at structures.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/index.html <---good link, shows how clueless FEMA's head was.
redmist
09-02-05, 05:52 PM
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/3310/thatsracist9gl.gif
the gal in the first pic looks black to me.
coolhand
09-02-05, 06:11 PM
the gal in the first pic looks black to me.
does to me too.
looks like they will need to find new material for that graphic
coolhand
09-02-05, 06:16 PM
New Orelans was one of the most crime ridden cities in the US prior to the disaster. They had one of the most corrupt police forces as well. I will hazard a guess that the criminal element in the city were not among the 10's of thousands that evacuated prior to the storm so they now form a fairly substantial portion of those remaining. A corrupt and missing police force + a high concentration of criminals = what we are seeing.
Dr. Corkski
09-02-05, 07:06 PM
New Orelans was one of the most crime ridden cities in the US prior to the disaster. They had one of the most corrupt police forces as well. I will hazard a guess that the criminal element in the city were not among the 10's of thousands that evacuated prior to the storm so they now form a fairly substantial portion of those remaining. A corrupt and missing police force + a high concentration of criminals = what we are seeing.All the more reason why the federal gov't should have taken control of the situation right away.
devilmaster
09-02-05, 07:49 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/09/02/Canadian_ships_to_louisiana20050902.html
Canada will be sending 3 warships, 1 Coast Guard vessel and 3 sea kings to Gulf to lend any assistance the US asks for....
All the more reason why the federal gov't should have taken control of the situation right away.
natl guard is under the governor's control. but they dont have too many of those around and ready... TX Ft Hood's bringing 50 or so blackhawks and chinooks and a battalion i think
New Orelans was one of the most crime ridden cities in the US prior to the disaster. They had one of the most corrupt police forces as well. I will hazard a guess that the criminal element in the city were not among the 10's of thousands that evacuated prior to the storm so they now form a fairly substantial portion of those remaining. A corrupt and missing police force + a high concentration of criminals = what we are seeing.
I would like the Great Salt Lake to change hands with Lake Pontratrain for moment to see the difference.
More of........ "we are working hard" speechless crapola. From today.
SNL skit.....working hard
................it`s hard work
..............it`s hard. :cry:
Just saw that Charity hospital finally got their patients evac'd. Unfortunately, the staff and family are still stuck there. Doctors are administering IV's on themselves and staff because it's been so long since they've had food or water. Apparently there were running gun battles going on in the lower floors between gangs trying to make off with whatever drugs they could find.
The convention center has 30,000 who are near rioting. Still no bus's to take them out and many dead inside.
communications via phone inside NO went dead around 2pm today for no reason. Many who could still communicate to the outside world no longer can.
:(
looks like every TX town's taking peoples in, corpus 5k, austin 5k, lubbock 1k, amarillo 500, el paso 350...
houston's estimated to be at 100K right now
arkansas's bringing in 20K on top of the 50K estimated to alerady be there, governor plans on setting up offices in all 75 counties to distribute funds evenly
hospitals in the HTown med center are on alert b/c of drug users breaking in looking for stuff... the med center's only 3 stops down from the 'dome on the light rail.
dude already jacked a car from the dome, drove it to the 3rd ward, and carjacked someone else...
I refuse to get judgemental about the needy being bought in, but this could get a little messy...
I refuse to get judgemental about the needy being bought in, but this could get a little messy...
Ja, it's the same in Cbus about all them Texas yahoos coming in fer The Showdown in The Shoe. :gomer: (Apologies for the threadjack)
I thought the Astrodome was supposed to house 25K? No sooner did the buses start leaving from NOLA, and suddenly there's no room @ the inn? :saywhat: :mad:
-Kevin
Ja, it's the same in Cbus about all them retarded Texans coming in fer The Showdown in The Shoe. :gomer: (Apologies for the threadjack)
I thought the Astrodome was supposed to house 25K? No sooner did the busses start leaving from NOLA, and suddenly there's no room @ the inn? :saywhat: :mad:
-Kevin
fire marshall put the kabosh on it, but the rest are being moved over to the convention center downtown and to reliant center...
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