Does KK want Chevy to stay in the IRL?

[Andrew Longman]

Hard to say what forum this belongs, but I thought it better here...

Having Chevy in the IRL puts Cosworth there. KK already said he's happy for Cosworth to have the business, but I wonder if it could also help CC teams get sponsorship while putting Tony in a bind.

Having control of an IRL powerplant also means that KK can more easily facilitate CC teams going to Indy which, combined with the CC schedule, is a much more compelling package to potential sponsors than the IRL schedule.

If they can get the chassis side worked out, perhaps with Panther providing engineering help, then for a few weeks in May they simply apply the livery to a different chassis/engine combo and continue the season.

CCWS could even award points for the Indy 500. Who could stop them?

Under this scheme, teams would have two choices. Take TG buck to run Indy and essentially one afternoon events in front of small crowd and ratings, or run the 500 and be part of a more robust schedule of festivals of speed that can be used to whoo customers in global markets all weekend long. If I'm a big time sponsor I know what I'm doing.

Under this scenario TG no longer is worried about filling the field in May, but having anyone to compete in the other races

[devilmaster]

I was going to mention this in the Panther thread.....

If KK can badge his cosworth, and the deal with Panther is true, Tony may be witnessing the biggest threat he's ever seen to his IRL.

I was always the one to say, 'forget about indy', and now that may seem like it was wrong. KK makes a deal so that he can go to any sponsor and say, we have our own engines and a deal for chassis. Our series has 300000 people at Mexico and aussieland, 200000 for Edm, 150000 for toronto, 100000 for montreal and san jose, and, oh yeah, 400000 or so for Indy.

If Honda pulls its sponsorship money because of no competition, and teams are forced to look for bigger sponsorship dollars, those sponsors would probably look better at CC than the IRL, on attendance numbers alone.

Its always fun to sit back and watch real businessmen deal with a rank amateur like FTG.

[cameraman]

Its always fun to sit back and watch real businessmen deal with a rank amateur like FTG. Who could well respond with a 26/7 type of rule to try to "save" his series. Even then, seven well funded CCWS cars would do Champ Car a world of good...

[devilmaster]

I suspect that if Tony feels really threatened, he will work to ensure that Cosworth will not be allowed back into the IRL. Panther said as much when he said that he'd go Honda if nothing else emerges.

And if Tony tries the 26/7 rule again, he'll take a PR hit from doing it a second time, and that's how it'll be spun.

If I read all of this right, they are laying the groundwork to be ready when the musical engines are done playing, and giving perspective sponsors a strong reason why CC is the better choice for their sponsorship dollars. Both series would have indy, now the only comparison for sponsors is the other CC vs. IRL races.

[FRANKY]

Panther has now stated they aren't going to Champ Car.

As for KK, it's a difficult situation I'm sure. There may be agreements in place where Chevy has an option of keeping the Chevyworth still running.

But if there isn't, wouldn't KK be "aiding and abetting" the enemy, keeping the IRL healthy by adding an engine manufacturer?

Would that be worth having engines around to Cherry pick the 500?

I don't think so. I think Haas went there because of sponsor and Honda money, but I would guess Yen more than Dollars.

[devilmaster]

Panther has now stated they aren't going to Champ Car.

As for KK, it's a difficult situation I'm sure. There may be agreements in place where Chevy has an option of keeping the Chevyworth still running.

But if there isn't, wouldn't KK be "aiding and abetting" the enemy, keeping the IRL healthy by adding an engine manufacturer?

Would that be worth having engines around to Cherry pick the 500?

I don't think so. I think Haas went there because of sponsor and Honda money, but I would guess Yen more than Dollars.

Franky, we're not talking about Panther going to CC, we're talking about the deal that Panther would have the cars for any CC sponsor and team that wants to run Indy while sponsoring CC. If you look at the HAAS irl cars from this year, both cars had alot of associate sponsorship on them from the other CC teams. Mi-Jack was on there, as an example.

Its not aiding and abetting the enemy, I see it as planning to have your cake and eat it too. What if, and its a big if, there have been sponsors who liked CC but wanted the exposure of Indy to go with it. Under this deal, they now could have that.

I don't see this as money coming out of CC's or KK's pocket for this deal, but by a sponsor who wants to run at indy as a one off. Panther brings the car only if the sponsor pays for it.

Here's a conspiracy theory for ya. What if the Panther to CC rumour was true, and they, in conference with KK, decided it would be better for them to stay in the twirl because it gives KK a chance to appease his current and prospective sponsors in CC?

[Andrew Longman]

Who could well respond with a 26/7 type of rule to try to "save" his series. Even then, seven well funded CCWS cars would do Champ Car a world of good...

He'd have to have 26 cars regularly running his series for that to matter. He doesn't have that now. He'd have even less if guys like Penske and Andretti attract big sponsors to an CC/I500 combo.

Essentially, the net effect is the series merge but not in any way that TG has a say beyond his show in May. In other words, not too much different that it was in 1995 and for 20 years before.

I dunno. All this just struck me in the last day or so. And I don't see how TG gets out of it. He's not likely to talk Honda into supplying the whole field. He's not likely to turn to RP to have Ilmore supply the who field because the field needs manufacturer money too. He's likely to need some combination of suppliers and if he does that it will be hard to keep Cosworth out.

[devilmaster]

Essentially, the net effect is the series merge but not in any way that TG has a say beyond his show in May. In other words, not too much different that it was in 1995 and for 20 years before.

I was thinking that it was like 1996 all over again, and this time, CC will do something different. :)

[cart7]

......
I dunno. All this just struck me in the last day or so. And I don't see how TG gets out of it. He's not likely to talk Honda into supplying the whole field. He's not likely to turn to RP to have Ilmore supply the who field because the field needs manufacturer money too. He's likely to need some combination of suppliers and if he does that it will be hard to keep Cosworth out.

IMO, that's the kicker. TG's requirements for badging were too steep. So what if Roger has a piece of Illmor, if no manufacturer wants to ante up to Tony's demands for badging then that's no longer an option. With Cossie, Chevy has a built in alliance already IF they choose to stay. They're staying probably has more to do with how many "name" teams will run their stuff without their support so they can continue to participate, win, and reap some financial reward vs. Honda that basically has just flushed money into the league the past couple years thinking Cart/CCWS would fold. That's not going to happen any more. I doubt that Honda will continue to keep pumping money at the rate they are, they're already complaining of the ROI just like Chevy and Yoda. Even Fernandez is looking for a Busch ride which sounds like his team may or may not answer the bell next year. The IRL teams are going to have to subsist on the $$ coming in from those sidepod sponsors and less from Honda and whatever company decides to badge the competing motor (whatever that is). 16 - 17 cars on a typical IRL grid next year? I'm thinking it's quite possible and where will 33 cars come from in May??

[cart7]

Who could well respond with a 26/7 type of rule to try to "save" his series. Even then, seven well funded CCWS cars would do Champ Car a world of good...

As Andrew said, that works when you're flush with 26 cars like he was in 1996, flash forward 10 years and Curt Cavin says 16-17 car fields next year are a very real possibility. I suppose Vision racing could become the first 17 car team though. :gomer:

[Jervis Tetch 1]

I suppose Vision racing could become the first 17 car team though. :gomer: :laugh:

[nrc]

I wonder how Ford would feel about supporting Champ car and then having the series facilitate its teams going to Indy to run with Chevy.

I really don't trust anything out of the Panther camp on this. They were fishing and either got a bite or overplayed their hand. Everything after that may just be bluster intended to save face.

[Chief]

You feed INDY you feed the IRL. Indy won't die, it'll just limp along like it has for the past 11 years on it's legacy and Tony's $$$.

I see no benefit for CCWS in running Indy other than to extend the split....it's like it's back to the future again (circa 2002), why don't we just run their equipment in OUR series blah blah blah.

It's my opinion that CCWS should stay away from the IRL and Indy at all costs. Chevy can stay there and Cosworth can make $$$ but I don't like the CCWS gamble being involved.

[Andrew Longman]

[QUOTE=nrc]I wonder how Ford would feel about supporting Champ car and then having the series facilitate its teams going to Indy to run with Chevy.
QUOTE]


Good point. Perhaps then Ford badges the Cosworth and they run Indy. Certainly ups the value of Fords association with CCWS. The liveries have to change even less for the one off at Indy.

I suppose the obstacle is all the marketing buys the TG requires for badging. Ford would not be happy about buying IRL time all season long if "their" teams aren't running the full season.

[DjDrOmusic]

Again it's the source that I don't trust. In the past entire stories have been written around a single quote that had nothing to do with the truth. The only real quote in the story is this, Team co-owner John Barnes said Panther would "absolutely not" be changing its status at the end of the season.

OK, so they're not changing their status at the end of the season, and the season ends when, October??? I'm not saying that Panther is coming to CC, but I have a feeling that Barnes and KK have an understanding, and it has yet to be made public. :saywhat:

[Al Czervik]

An alcohol fueled what if...

Cosworth has a potenial "badger" for the Earl engine in '06 (Chevy, Trabant, whoever)

The manu. money is dependant on Panther for the Earl season, plus at least 12 Champ Car cars for the 500 (Haas, Forsthye, PKV, RuSport, Mijack, HVM, maybe Coyne).

Panther gives engineering help to said teams to get them up to speed.

Cosworth & Honda effectively remove Toyota from the I5 equation (Foyt, Floyd, Cheeber, Vision et al)

Above Toyota teams collapse due to no 500 money/exposure

Tony faced with big check writing or no EARL

Peace in our time.

Too many beers on Tuesday night? (probably)

[Andrew Longman]

An alcohol fueled what if...

Cosworth has a potenial "badger" for the Earl engine in '06 (Chevy, Trabant, whoever)

The manu. money is dependant on Panther for the Earl season, plus at least 12 Champ Car cars for the 500 (Haas, Forsthye, PKV, RuSport, Mijack, HVM, maybe Coyne).

Panther gives engineering help to said teams to get them up to speed.

Cosworth & Honda effectively remove Toyota from the I5 equation (Foyt, Floyd, Cheeber, Vision et al)

Above Toyota teams collapse due to no 500 money/exposure

Tony faced with big check writing or no EARL

Peace in our time.

Too many beers on Tuesday night? (probably)

I've been chairing a school board meeting to this hour. Seem OK to me

[Insomniac]

An alcohol fueled what if...

Cosworth has a potenial "badger" for the Earl engine in '06 (Chevy, Trabant, whoever)

The manu. money is dependant on Panther for the Earl season, plus at least 12 Champ Car cars for the 500 (Haas, Forsthye, PKV, RuSport, Mijack, HVM, maybe Coyne).

Panther gives engineering help to said teams to get them up to speed.

Cosworth & Honda effectively remove Toyota from the I5 equation (Foyt, Floyd, Cheeber, Vision et al)

Above Toyota teams collapse due to no 500 money/exposure

Tony faced with big check writing or no EARL

Peace in our time.

Too many beers on Tuesday night? (probably)

12 ChampCars plus the 21-22 cars they regularly have = a full field. They'd really just be limiting the number of one-offs who have funding (by bumping) and Tony Bucks to fill the field, not hurting the IRL. It would help Indy as well.

None of this makes sense. I think it's all just a bunch of BS. It doesn't fit in with the current plan/path. It would only contribute to confusion. The race is an IndyCar event and as such will be promoted as one and televised as one. ABC won't be talking about ChampCar, or the CCWS. As far as they are concerned, the teams and drivers are all part of the IRL. This goes completely against trying to build ChampCar back up and undermines everything. Just like all the other failed attempts to get together that just strengthened the IRL and weakened ChampCar.

[KLang]

paper posted over at crapwagon that a source told him this thing was BS. paper does have a high placed source or two.

[stroker]

Y'know, if KK is true to his word, and he in fact has no interest in Indy for CC in the future, then why not sell engines to the .1RL? We all know that the conventional wisdom is the FTG barely has the IQ to tie his shoes, let alone run a racing series. KK could easily not see the .1RL as a threat. If that's the case, why not let the .1RL live a long and happy life? He just uses them as a steady revenue source. After all, that's the point in owning Cosworth, isn't it?

[extramundane]

paper posted over at crapwagon that a source told him this thing was BS. paper does have a high placed source or two.

High like a spyplane or high like Tommy Chong?

[KLang]

:rolleyes: Nevermind.

[Wally]

:rolleyes: Nevermind.
Yeah, rough crowd heh......geeze.

[Insomniac]

Y'know, if KK is true to his word, and he in fact has no interest in Indy for CC in the future, then why not sell engines to the .1RL? We all know that the conventional wisdom is the FTG barely has the IQ to tie his shoes, let alone run a racing series. KK could easily not see the .1RL as a threat. If that's the case, why not let the .1RL live a long and happy life? He just uses them as a steady revenue source. After all, that's the point in owning Cosworth, isn't it?

I see no reason against it. Let the IRL teams pay for the CCWS engines. Same thing Toyota wanted the ChampCar teams to fund their IRL engines. If it lowers the costs that only helps. TG is going to get engines from somewhere. As much as people like to think he can be forced into folding it just won't happen unless he is broke. I just don't see that happening. Might as well get some of that money he's giving away.

[nrc]

This is not a forum for discussing who we don't like. If you want to question someone's sources, that's fine. But do it without the personal attacks.

[Gary]

A very interesting theory. An 'invasion force' of CC teams, all doing one-ofs for the I500. Don't see any reason why they all would not proudly display the CC logo on their wagons. Wouldn't that p1ss off TG. Of course, someone will first have to point it out to him.

[Lizzerd]

A very interesting theory. An 'invasion force' of CC teams, all doing one-ofs for the I500. Don't see any reason why they all would not proudly display the CC logo on their wagons. Wouldn't that p1ss off TG. Of course, someone will first have to point it out to him.

1. You really think TG would even allow a CCWS logo on the Hallowed Grounds? Please...

2. It would wizz him off, but the CCWS logo being there would never allow the car to pass tech inspection.

3. Let's give TG a little bit of credit. He knows exactly who his competition is.

:D

Maybe you were being facetious... :confused:

[formulaben]

An alcohol fueled what if...

Cosworth has a potenial "badger" for the Earl engine in '06 (Chevy, Trabant, whoever)

The manu. money is dependant on Panther for the Earl season, plus at least 12 Champ Car cars for the 500 (Haas, Forsthye, PKV, RuSport, Mijack, HVM, maybe Coyne).

Panther gives engineering help to said teams to get them up to speed.

Cosworth & Honda effectively remove Toyota from the I5 equation (Foyt, Floyd, Cheeber, Vision et al)

Above Toyota teams collapse due to no 500 money/exposure

Tony faced with big check writing or no EARL

Peace in our time.

Too many beers on Tuesday night? (probably)


Didn't we do that in 2000? If no Champcar teams run the Five Hunnert then they will have a hard time filling the field....so...

[captain obvious]Isn't it about time WE RACED ON MEMORIAL WEEKEND AT OUR OWN GODDMAN RACE?![/captain obvious]

[pchall]

A very interesting theory. An 'invasion force' of CC teams, all doing one-ofs for the I500. Don't see any reason why they all would not proudly display the CC logo on their wagons. Wouldn't that p1ss off TG. Of course, someone will first have to point it out to him.


I do hope you are aware that any sponsorship logo carried on a car at IMS has to be approved by IMS and a fee paid to the track for the priviledge of being a a car there? Fat chance Champ Car gets approved.

[Gary]

I do hope you are aware that any sponsorship logo carried on a car at IMS has to be approved by IMS and a fee paid to the track for the priviledge of being a a car there? Fat chance Champ Car gets approved.TG's rules change more often than the weather. It would depend on how badly he needs engines and entries.

[G.]

I agree with Captain Obvious above, buuuuttttt...

Last year there was the misinterpretation of the rulebook that people thought said if you race in CC, you cannot race in another series. Tony Cotman had to quickly put the PR machine in full cycle and clarify that they would never disallow a sponsor from taking their team to the fi hunnert.

Running a race on Memorial Day may wizz off the sponsors. That's all I'm saying. The Mem day race needs to be able to compete with the Early-go-round in order for spon$ors agree. Some sponsors, anyway. Not going to happen for a while (not that ftg isn't doing his best to make the 500 irrelevant to the sports world).

That said, I mean, who doesn't agree with Captain Obvious? He's Captain Freaking Obvious!