The new direction of CART...

[RaceGrrl]

according to David Clare, Champ Car's COO in his interview at : CART.com (http://www.cart.com/News/Article.asp?ID=5583)

"The series is becoming an American multi-national, multi-cultural series focusing on urban environments," Clare adds. "Champ Car delivers racing to where the people are rather than asking people to go out to find it. The challenge is to create a clear identity for Champ Car and to create value in Champ Car and an understanding of what the Champ Car event or experience is all about."

Puts a new spin on the RA situation, doesn't it?

[mnkywrch]

Kind of what I've been saying, huh?

Bye-bye, Mid-Ohio...

I hope Milwaukee and Portland and Fontana are "urban" enough for CART.

[JSR]

I don't want CART to only be a city street circuit series.

[sundaydriver]

I read that today at CART.com. I hope CART realizes that they better have some tracks other than just street races. Some of the street races are nice ie, St. Petes and Long Beach. Others, like Denver and Miami, have very lame circuits which produce poor races. FWIW, I like the idea of more airport races over more street races.

Hopefully CART and RA can kiss and make up. I'm not holding my breath but CART needs natural terrain road course like RA.

[RaceGrrl]

I don't believe that losing RA is the death knell for Mid Ohio. The Trueman family's relationship with CART is a bit different, and MO is closer to larger urban areas than RA is.

I would hate to see MO go away because I love the track. Having said that, if it does, bring back the Columbus 500, baby!

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by sundaydriver
Hopefully CART and RA can kiss and make up. I'm not holding my breath but CART needs natural terrain road course like RA.

If they wanted to add more natural terrain courses they easily could. I seriously doubt that Road Atlanta's "safety issues" are truly insurmountable.

However, the financial issues...

I think it will be a long, long day before we see another permanent circuit (oval or road course) added to the CART schedule.

But the temporary circuits... will keep flowing.

[rabbit]

If CART went 100 percent street circuits, I'd probably still watch. But at this point I ain't real crazy about the idea.:( :) :confused:

[damiandoan]

Originally posted by mnkywrch
I seriously doubt that Road Atlanta's "safety issues" are truly insurmountable.


Maybe this should be another thread, but I'd like somone to explain to me, in technical terms, exactly how Road Atlanta is anymore unsafe than any street course with concrete walls define the edge of the tracks? :rolleyes: :mad:

DD

[tantra]

Forget Road America. It's only the best place to race Champ cars and the most beautiful place I've ever been to watch a race. Who needs a place like that?

There is no replacement for a place like Road America and its loss has brought me to feel great sadness.

[FortyOneFord]

I see most are dogging the temp circuits here, but I have a different view on "temp" circuits.

Mexico City and Montreal were added to the schedule last year. These two tracks were a tremedous success. From a technical point, they are both temporary circuits, but I have found few who would consider these tracks "street" circuits. They have all the advanteges of urban street markets, yet they also have the aesthetic and viewing appeal of a traditional road course. I'd go so far as to say St. Pete was virtually on par with those 2 in terms of being more road course like.

So what if the idea isn't neccesarily more "street" circuits, but more along the lines of producing and developing proper temporary circuits in park like settings in major markets/population centers?

I could definately live with that. I in fact look forward to it.

[nrc]

Originally posted by mnkywrch
If they wanted to add more natural terrain courses they easily could. I seriously doubt that Road Atlanta's "safety issues" are truly insurmountable.

I've always considered Road Atlanta to have "safety issues" (quotes are yours) for anything as fast as a Champ Car. Bob Akin's tragic death confirmed that. There are too many areas where the runoff and/or barriers aren't sufficient.

Of course those problems are not "insurmountable" (quotes are mine) but the the question is, who is going to spend the money to surmount them?

[nrc]

BTW, with all due respect to the lovely RaceGrrl, this isn't a new direction. This is the same message Pook has been delivering since he came on board. I've probably started more threads than anyone here (and previously on 7G) pointing out that a series full of street races is not the answer to CART's problems. They will simply create the most popular series that nobody really follows. That is to say that if the fans who attend the "events" aren't excited by the racing and what the series has to offer on TV once they leave town then they're not going to tune in every week.

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by FortyOneFord
I see most are dogging the temp circuits here, but I have a different view on "temp" circuits.

Mexico City and Montreal were added to the schedule last year. These two tracks were a tremedous success. From a technical point, they are both temporary circuits, but I have found few who would consider these tracks "street" circuits. They have all the advanteges of urban street markets, yet they also have the aesthetic and viewing appeal of a traditional road course. I'd go so far as to say St. Pete was virtually on par with those 2 in terms of being more road course like.

So what if the idea isn't neccesarily more "street" circuits, but more along the lines of producing and developing proper temporary circuits in park like settings in major markets/population centers?


I would say that Mexico City & Montreal are different, as they both are/were pre-existing road courses that host (or hosted) big time auto racing before CART even existed. To hope CART can pull that off again?

If that's what they're going after, that's different. Denver & Miami certainly didn't make me feel that way.

Out of the last three temporary circuits (Denver, Miami, St. Pete) they've added only one allowed actual racing.

I liked the occasional street circuit because it was different. At a certain point (different for all of us) street circuits would stop being different and start being routine - just like cookie-cutter 1.5 mile ovals.

"Look, another week of concrete canyons!" :rolleyes:

For me at least, CART's awful near that point.

And, no, I wouldn't feel much better if CART was adding road courses in Europe. Spa would be cool, true... but I am still against dropping NA races. I still feel CART should focus solely on the NA market.

[racer2c]

No comment.

;)

nrc, you ladies man you. ;)

[DjDrOmusic]

Originally posted by RaceGrrl
I don't believe that losing RA is the death knell for Mid Ohio. The Trueman family's relationship with CART is a bit different, and MO is closer to larger urban areas than RA is.

I would hate to see MO go away because I love the track. Having said that, if it does, bring back the Columbus 500, baby!

I was living in Florida when Columbus had the races through the streets. Where did they race? I'm imagining something including Broad Street, High Street and Marconi.:confused:

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by nrc
BTW, with all due respect to the lovely RaceGrrl, this isn't a new direction.

What, don't like sleeping on the couch? ;) :D :p

[nrc]

Originally posted by mnkywrch
What, don't like sleeping on the couch? ;) :D :p
Do I look stupid? :gomer:

[nrc]

Originally posted by DjDrOmusic
I was living in Florida when Columbus had the races through the streets. Where did they race? I'm imagining something including Broad Street, High Street and Marconi.:confused:

The Start/Finish straight was along Front street with the start at Gay St. From there the course went North to Spring, left on Spring, down past the old state Penn and then through a hairpin that took them back east on Long. Long St back to Marconi. Right on Marconi, South to Broad St. Right on Broad, West across the bridge to Washington. Left on Washington, south down to Town St. Left on Town, east across the bridge to Civic Center. Left on Civic Center, north to Broad. Right on Broad, east to Front. Left on Front, back North to Start/Finish.

2.27 miles and 11 or 12 turns depending on how you count them. It was a pretty good street course because the streets in Columbus are nice and wide. The only bad things about the course where that it narrowed to 1.5 lanes under the railroad bridge across Long St. and the pits were along Broad St. in front of Vets Memorial, requiring a tight u-turn to head back up Broad to re-enter the course by turning right onto Washington.

[rabbit]

Sorry if I'm getting this too far off topic, but...

Here's a map of Columbus...
http://media.maps.com/magellan/Images/COLDWN-W1.gif

And a map of the track...
http://www.racingcircuits.net/UnitedStates/oh/Columbus.gif
source: http://www.racingcircuits.net/UnitedStates/oh/Columbus.html

The northern part of the circuit is in the new arena district, next to Nationwide Arena (home of the Blue Jackets).

[oddlycalm]

Originally posted by mnkywrch
If they wanted to add more natural terrain courses they easily could. I seriously doubt that Road Atlanta's "safety issues" are truly insurmountable.

What natural terrain road courses do you have in mind that could be easily added? It's one thing to say that, it's quite another to name any that are viable with regard to both safety and market potential.

Road Atlanta's safety issues are well known by all that have been there. By continuing to post this, absent specifics, you only diminish your own credibility. The course is extremely fast, and has some non-movable hazards. Slower cars and/or cars with bodywork are less subject to these hazards. Moving the wall, which is the #1 hazard, would require removing the hill behind it, i.e. not a cost effective solution. The approach RA has recently (2/23/03)announced for the motorcycle events is to add what amounts to a big double chicane that is out farther out from the wall instead of the current turn 4 fast sweeper. This will work 'ok' for bikes, but would be mickey mouse for champcars IMO. This is not the only area of concern at RA. Also, bear in mind that a row of straw bales that can stop a bike/rider, won't begin to stop a Champcar.

To summarize, you're saying it doesn't make it true. Unless you back up your statements with hard information, you'll be treated accordingly I suspect.

Safety changes at Road Atlanta (http://www.roadatlanta.com/index.lasso?-database=rdatl_pressrelease&-layout=pr_1&-response=newsdetail.lasso&-recordID=98&-search)

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by oddlycalm
Road Atlanta's safety issues are well known by all that have been there. By continuing to post this, absent specifics, you only diminish your own credibility.

To summarize, you're saying it doesn't make it true. Unless you back up your statements with hard information, you'll be treated accordingly I suspect.


Road Atlanta could, in theory, spend the $$$ to make changes if CART's own sanctioning fees weren't prohibitive to make the change.

If CART wanted (say) a sanctioning fee that was going to average $2 million a year over five years, and RA had to make improvements on top of that, I doubt RA would be able to pay both the sanctioning fee and make renovations.

If CART was able to 'give' on the sanctioning fee in light of the needed repairs it could work.

Look at the map of the US - there's not a CART race for miles from RA. I'd like to think that there's a market of fans for road racing in the South that CART could develop, but CART's too busy throwing around their temporary barricades and worried about the numbers in their 10-Q to try. They don't have time or money to grow events.

[oddlycalm]

'wrench, you're reaching. Read your own post. "could, in theory...If CART wanted...If CART was able..." Pigs, if they had wings, could, in theory, fly.

I sat 20ft. from Chris Pook three weeks ago and he said CART would dearly love to run at Road Atlanta. Surprisingly enough, Pook owns a map. That is why he said CART would dearly love to run there. It's not like he's never been there, or like he's not aquainted with Don Panoz.

He went on to say what anyone that has every actually been to Road Atlanta would expect him to say. CART's evaluation of the track, based on corner speeds and the proximity of hazards, indicated that the track was not safe for Champcars. His further comment was that they would prefer to err on the side of safety rather that put the drivers at more risk than they are already.

Is it your theory that he's stupid, or a liar, and simply doesn't want to race at Road Atlanta for personal reasons? Did you bother to read the transcript of the meeting in Portland? You posts would indicate you haven't.

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by oddlycalm
Is it your theory that he's stupid, or a liar, and simply doesn't want to race at Road Atlanta for personal reasons? Did you bother to read the transcript of the meeting in Portland? You posts would indicate you haven't.

Nope, haven't read it, and based upon the thread about it (http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=724), I'm not going to read it anytime soon. But you lead me to a tangent.

The more Pook spouts off about "visit crapwagon.com" and other such nonsense at these fan forums, using language I expect on a message forum, the less I feel the need to read what he says, and the less respect I have for Pook. (And I started with a great deal of respect for him. I still do respect him. But he's the CEO of a publically traded company, and I expect him to behave like one.)

The rate he's going, I expect the next Fan Forum to feature Pook & Paul Tracy in a wrestling ring smashing folding chairs and tables over Michael Andretti and Tony George cut-outs.

If they're going to be One True Saviors of All That Is Good about open wheel racing, I expect them to do that with some class.

But I digress.


He went on to say what anyone that has every actually been to Road Atlanta would expect him to say. CART's evaluation of the track, based on corner speeds and the proximity of hazards, indicated that the track was not safe for Champcars. His further comment was that they would prefer to err on the side of safety rather that put the drivers at more risk than they are already.

That's fine.

Of course, his job is to make sure that CART makes as much money as possible. Waiving or reducing sanctioning fees so tracks can make safety improvements doesn't help with that.

I'd rather they bulldoze some land in Georgia than sit through Denver or Miami again - but I don't have to worry about the financial side of it. Pook does.

[JLMannin]

'wrench:

Your cut-out smashing suggestion sounds like a good charity fund raiser to have at CART events. :D :D

[RaceGrrl]

Originally posted by JLMannin
'wrench:

Your cut-out smashing suggestion sounds like a good charity fund raiser to have at CART events. :D :D

Nah, it just sounds like any NASCAR race on any given Sunday.

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by JLMannin
Your cut-out smashing suggestion sounds like a good charity fund raiser to have at CART events. :D :D

If it wasn't for the carbon fiber, I'd suggest one of those "smash a car" deals like high schools used to do - expect the car would be an old Dallara... it would be a HUGE hit. :laugh:

[oddlycalm]

Originally posted by mnkywrch
Nope, haven't read it, and based upon the thread about it (http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=724), I'm not going to read it anytime soon. But you lead me to a tangent.

The more Pook spouts off about "visit crapwagon.com" and other such nonsense at these fan forums, using language I expect on a message forum, the less I feel the need to read what he says, and the less respect I have for Pook.
-snip-
I'd rather they bulldoze some land in Georgia than sit through Denver or Miami again - but I don't have to worry about the financial side of it. Pook does.

If you haven't read the transcript, or listened to the audio, then you have shortchanged yourself, and are not in position to comment. You clearly don't grasp the context, let alone what was actually said. Pook was educated at the Sorbonne, and is British by birth. This is not a guy who talks out is tail or tosses around silly statements. The odd witty reply or clever undertatements were certainly amusing but the entire event was very professionally handled. I deal with senior management at Fortune 100 companies, and Pook is better than the norm IMO. A lot of these guys are stiffs.

It's not Pooks track, your track or mine either. Don Panoz owns it. I've wanted to take a bulldozer to Don Panoz' track for years, but I doubt he's going to let any of us do that. I doubt there is anyone that would not love to see Champcars at Road Atlanta.

You need to ground your statement in reality, or risk having them ignored. Commenting on things you haven't bothered to read, or places you haven't been isn't helping your case.