View Full Version : Is this San Jose track a bad joke?
Column about fixing the track for next year.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/12282284.htm
I'm wondering what would have happened with crapwagons going over the tracks. SJC would need a spare control tower to handle the traffic.
Column about fixing the track for next year.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/12282284.htm
Could you copy and paste the important stuff? Can't believe they even want a street address to sign up.
Could you copy and paste the important stuff? Can't believe they even want a street address to sign up.
1.) Go to Bugmenot.com (http://www.bugmenot.com)
2.) Enter www.mercurynews.com in the box
3.) You will see a user name and password to use, thereby bypassing the registration process
Ted
indyfan31
08-02-05, 12:30 PM
``Our first responsibility is to customers in the service that we provide on a day-to-day basis,'' he said. ``Our customers depend on us to get to work, to get to school, to get to medical appointments. I would really frown on doing something like that.''
I can't believe officials even try this excuse anymore. It gets used for a variety of reasons that don't have anything to do with racing. And the question nobody ever asks is: How many people go to "work ... school ... medical appointments" on Saturdays and Sundays? These are the same people that like to drop "do it for the children" into every argument.
1.) Go to Bugmenot.com (http://www.bugmenot.com)
2.) Enter www.mercurynews.com in the box
3.) You will see a user name and password to use, thereby bypassing the registration process
Ted
Thanks :thumbup:
FCYTravis
08-02-05, 01:27 PM
I can't believe officials even try this excuse anymore. It gets used for a variety of reasons that don't have anything to do with racing. And the question nobody ever asks is: How many people go to "work ... school ... medical appointments" on Saturdays and Sundays? These are the same people that like to drop "do it for the children" into every argument.
Last I checked, Champ Car races were three-day weekends. Hello, Friday?
Oh yeah, and lots of people work on Saturdays and Sundays.
Singleton also suggested that interrupting light-rail service a day or two before the 2006 race weekend could be another solution.
I think they are talking about Wednesday and Thursday before the race.
But efforts to smooth over the tracks were hindered because trains had to return to the maintenance yard each night for inspection. Track work had to be redone every day.
Transit officials said Monday that shouldn't have come as a surprise.
``We had a pretty extensive transportation plan for this event,'' said Matt Tucker, VTA's chief operations officer. ``They knew in advance we needed to bring our vehicles back through.''
Didn't the city council overrule the VTA's objections to the track layout? Sounds like the VTA got all bent out of shape and stopped communicating with the race planners.
oddlycalm
08-02-05, 03:37 PM
My take is that the close order group fornication that happened in San Jose isn't going to help Champcar in any regard. I can't imagine that this is a race KK would want to put his name on as a shining example to his peers or in order to interest sponsors. I know SJ sufficiently well to be confident that there aren't enough changes that are physically possible to ever make this event a decent race. Put it out of it's misery and move on. I too was surprised the drivers didn't refuse, but I suspect that's more about their greatly diminished stature than anything to do with the track. If CCWS chalks it up to lesson learned and moves on, or by some waive of the magic wand manages to fix the problems, then no foul.
oc
Insomniac
08-02-05, 03:48 PM
Column about fixing the track for next year.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/12282284.htm
I hope they plan more sweeping changes. Including making the track longer. 1.45 miles is so short.
Insomniac
08-02-05, 03:51 PM
My take is that the close order group fornication that happened in San Jose isn't going to help Champcar in any regard. I can't imagine that this is a race KK would want to put his name on as a shining example to his peers or in order to interest sponsors. I know SJ sufficiently well to be confident that there aren't enough changes that are physically possible to ever make this event a decent race. Put it out of it's misery and move on. I too was surprised the drivers didn't refuse, but I suspect that's more about their greatly diminished stature than anything to do with the track. If CCWS chalks it up to lesson learned and moves on, or by some waive of the magic wand manages to fix the problems, then no foul.
oc
5-year deal, I don't think they can walk away easily even if they wanted.
Sean O'Gorman
08-02-05, 03:53 PM
Column about fixing the track for next year.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/12282284.htm
My first suggestion:
http://www.sfangels.com/images/Dr.%20Strangelove-%20more%20Slim%20Pickens%202.jpg
My first suggestion:
http://www.sfangels.com/images/Dr.%20Strangelove-%20more%20Slim%20Pickens%202.jpg
Cool pic of Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb.
:thumbup:
FCYTravis
08-02-05, 04:08 PM
Didn't the city council overrule the VTA's objections to the track layout? Sounds like the VTA got all bent out of shape and stopped communicating with the race planners.
What are you going to do? Tell the entire light rail system to shut down and stop evening maintenance? The mistake was designing a track that went over light rail tracks in the first place.
Poor planning on behalf of the race organizers. What, did they think that a car race is more important than the public transportation system for the Silicon Valley?
racer2c
08-02-05, 04:11 PM
They shoulda raced in Santa Fe. :gomer:
Sean O'Gorman
08-02-05, 04:26 PM
Cool pic of Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb.
:thumbup:
I liked the Simpsons spoof of it too.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:2rQ3E-HxG2YJ:http://actualidadsimpson.metropoliglobal.com/fotogramas/1f09/18.jpg
That's why there's never been a "Chicago Grand Prix" despite all the talk over the years...the public couldn't get to the museums without too much inconvenience. Pretty steep price to pay for a weekend of culture. Expect a return of the tracks at SJ, they're already talking about a big new grandstand at the hairpin. :rolleyes:
Now, in Denver the Light Rail brings the fans to within about 100ft. of the track. Perfect. I have NEVER gotten to and from a race with such ease. Track sucks, though. Tough to get EVERYTHING just right, wish we could start with the RACING first!
indyfan31
08-02-05, 05:08 PM
Last I checked, Champ Car races were three-day weekends. Hello, Friday?
Oh yeah, and lots of people work on Saturdays and Sundays.
Accomodations could be made for fridays. Threre are few (if any) schools or doctor's offices in downtown areas. If there any they are CLOSED on Saturdays and Sundays. And, no, "lots" of people don't work weekends in the Downtown districts of a large city. With the exception of the garment district, downtown L.A. is practically a ghost town on Saturdays and Sundays. Many restaurants don't even bother to open on weekends.
As street race weekends become annual events, the locals treat that weekend as a special case. I'm sure Long Beach residents don't schedule downtown dentist apppointments on Friday of race weekend...
The city of San Jose needs to be behind this event for it to really succeed into an annual showcase. The mayor shouldn't allow infighting between VTA, the city and the promotors.
Although the track sucked, I heard nothing but good things from people who were there. Lots of them liked the drifting.
FCYTravis
08-02-05, 05:51 PM
You still don't majorly disrupt a major mass transit system for three days on behalf of a bunch of partiers getting drunk.
The track was crap and should be started over from scratch anyway. You're telling me they can't find a single course that doesn't have a rail grade crossing? :shakehead
You still don't majorly disrupt a major mass transit system for three days on behalf of a bunch of partiers getting drunk.
Why not?
JohnHKart
08-02-05, 06:40 PM
You still don't majorly disrupt a major mass transit system for three days on behalf of a bunch of partiers getting drunk.
The track was crap and should be started over from scratch anyway. You're telling me they can't find a single course that doesn't have a rail grade crossing? :shakehead
There's one 45 miles south called Laguna Seca. :)
John
Rogue Leader
08-02-05, 06:43 PM
This happened a couple of years ago. I believe it was a Busch car. The guy was lucky to walk away.
It was a Busch race, but hes right It was about 1990 in Bristol. He drove the Country Time/Koolaid car. That was possibly the most magled race car Ive ever seen anyone walk away from, it was literally ripped in half.
As for SJ..... We gave up Laguna for this? That track was crap sorry.....
It was a Busch race, but hes right It was about 1990 in Bristol. He drove the Country Time/Koolaid car. That was possibly the most magled race car Ive ever seen anyone walk away from, it was literally ripped in half.
Trish is also right. Mike Harmon was the driver a couple years ago who duplicated Mikey's horrifying crash and escape from injury.
cameraman
08-02-05, 06:58 PM
Trish is also right. Mike Harmon was the driver a couple years ago who duplicated Mikey's horrifying crash and escape from injury.
Yikes.
http://www.nascar.com/2002/news/headlines/bg/08/22/mharmon_crash/huge-crash_xl.jpg
Dr. Corkski
08-02-05, 07:08 PM
Lots of them liked the drifting.You say that like it's a good thing. :gomer:
You say that like it's a good thing. :gomer:
:laugh: I'm on SeanO's side - I hate the way the track looks after the driftas are done.
It's amazing the difference between racing forum people and the "casual fans" I ran into yesterday at a trackday. All the casual fans just loved the excitement of the event & the fast cars...
no worries about ratings
no worries about what TF nitwits would say
no worries about who was in the Coyne car
etc.
They just had a great time & planned on going back. Seemed like they counted as 'racefans' to me.
Dr. Corkski
08-02-05, 07:35 PM
They just had a great time & planned on going back. Seemed like they counted as 'racefans' to me.Then again, those causal fans were more impressed with the drifting, light rail jump, crashes, and beer tents, most of which they won't get to see on TV. :laugh:
They would be racefans if they continued to follow the series after they leave their local event. If they only plan on seeing a Champ Car again when they come to town next year, that makes them event fans. The goal is to turn the event fans into the minority.
Insomniac
08-02-05, 07:56 PM
Then again, those causal fans were more impressed with the drifting, light rail jump, crashes, and beer tents, most of which they won't get to see on TV. :laugh:
They would be racefans if they continued to follow the series after they leave their local event. If they only plan on seeing a Champ Car again when they come to town next year, that makes them event fans. The goal is to turn the event fans into the minority.
The goal is to get tons of event fans to make ChampCar a bunch of money so the race fans can go to races at RA and MO. ;)
FCYTravis
08-02-05, 08:03 PM
Why would the series ever again bother to race at RA and MO if they could make a lot more money catering to the event fans in Santa Fe and other such "events" around the world?
Why would the series ever again bother to race at RA and MO if they could make a lot more money catering to the event fans in Santa Fe and other such "events" around the world?
I have the same question. My guess is, we've been abandoned for good.
So, how 'bout that new ALMS Porsche, eh? :)
Why would the series ever again bother to race at RA and MO if they could make a lot more money catering to the event fans in Santa Fe and other such "events" around the world?
Because it makes for a better overall product. The diversity of circuits is still part of the appeal.
FCYTravis
08-02-05, 09:02 PM
Is it?
Then why is there but one American natural terrain road course on the schedule this year?
If you're going to build your "product" around event fans who show up for one race on the calendar every year, you don't need to "broaden the appeal." Just throw up a 1.5 mile concrete canyon, add beer, drifting and babes and voila, you get event fans.
Why would Champ Car ever return to Road America when they can go street racing in Milwaukee?
Why would Champ Car ever return to Mid-Ohio when they can go street racing in Columbus?
racer2c
08-02-05, 09:27 PM
I have the same question. My guess is, we've been abandoned for good.
No, the question is, "when is a champ car fan not a champ car fan?" with the follow up question of "when will they finally stop posting on Champ Car forums?"
Even the Dalai Lama himself does not know the answer. :gomer:
racer2c
08-02-05, 09:31 PM
Is it?
Then why is there but one American natural terrain road course on the schedule this year?
If you're going to build your "product" around event fans who show up for one race on the calendar every year, you don't need to "broaden the appeal." Just throw up a 1.5 mile concrete canyon, add beer, drifting and babes and voila, you get event fans.
Why would Champ Car ever return to Road America when they can go street racing in Milwaukee?
Why would Champ Car ever return to Mid-Ohio when they can go street racing in Columbus?
Columbus? Now you've crossed the line pal. :flame:
Hasn't the great Dam of Mid-Ohio built those condos over that track yet? :gomer:
Dr. Corkski
08-02-05, 10:49 PM
The goal is to get tons of event fans to make ChampCar a bunch of money so the race fans can go to races at RA and MO. ;)Now how are you going to get anyone to go out to a real race track when your entire fan base is essentially people that can't drive for more than 15 minutes to get to a race track?
Methanolandbrats
08-02-05, 10:56 PM
I don't think anyone here is refuting the fact that the Jose race sucked @ss, maybe the worst race in Champcar history (although I'm placin' my vote with that fuster-cluck down in Oz a couple years ago... I bet more people left the track pissed off that day than yesterday). KK made it sound like he was gonna do what needed to be done to make San Jose a good race next year, including a configuration change.
Another fact is that M-O, RA, and Laguna were packed houses back in the day. Since the split the attendance has dwindled to the point that the tracks lost money, Champcar lost money, and the few sponsors that remained got no ROI. Champcar tried a couple different ways to keep the events going (reduced sanctioning fees, doing their own promotion, and adjusting profit margins between the track owners and Champcar), but the races still fell on their asses. Maybe they didn't exhaust all the options available, but the options they did use still cost them money. I can hardly tell them they're stoopid for not wanting to lose more money at these venus.
Champcar is no longer what they used to be. If fact, they're hardly a blip on the racing radar anymore... for all intents and purposes they're basically a brand-new, start-up series. If, by the grace of God, they're able to build a foundation on these hell-borne street circuits, maybe... just maybe they'll be able to afford or, Hell, even be popular enuf to drag several thousands of fans out to butt-f*** Elkhart, WI or Lexitucky, Ohio again. If they do, I'll be there all three days of the race weekend. If not, I hope to maybe catch some of the better street races on the tube on a lazy Sunday afternoon.
My interest has definitely been waning over the past 5 years, but I'll still tune in to see if they do anything right on the weekends they race. Occasionally they get it right... ;)OUtstanding post. As far as that event in SJ goes. If someone had broken and speared the wall after jumping the mogul with traffic behind them, you would have had multiple serious injuries and/or a fatality. Stupidest f'n thing I've ever seen in open wheel racing.
cameraman
08-02-05, 10:57 PM
Why would Champ Car ever return to Road America when they can go street racing in Milwaukee?
Why would Champ Car ever return to Mid-Ohio when they can go street racing in Columbus?They are not running the series to get rich but the are also not running the series to get poor either. If in a year or so they feel that they can run at RA or Laguna and not lose a ton of money I would think that they would. They know that there is a core group of followers that want RA in the worst way and they will run there if it is at all reasonable. Hopefully they are going to try to tie in with the ALMS crowd and the only way they will be able to do that is to run at more places than just Portland. But I am thinking that you will see Sebring before you see RA. I doubt you will see RA until RA gets some management that realizes that it is 2005 not 1995 and things are done differently now.
Is it?
Then why is there but one American natural terrain road course on the schedule this year?
What do you call Portland?
Champ car is in turn-around mode. I think they see value in natural terrain circuits. That doesn't mean there's enough value to make it worth losing money on them to race in markets that you're already serving when you're trying to save a company. When you're tightening your belt sometimes you have to cut out appetizers and desserts for a while.
If you're going to build your "product" around event fans who show up for one race on the calendar every year, you don't need to "broaden the appeal." Just throw up a 1.5 mile concrete canyon, add beer, drifting and babes and voila, you get event fans.If that were the sum total of their strategy they would have dropped ovals on day one after the bankruptcy.
The notion that either they see road courses as an indispensable feature that must be on the schedule regardless of losses or as something to be dispensed with in every case where there's a street racing alternative is silly. There is a whole spectrum in between those extremes. I suspect it's a little easier to find a place on that in that medium when you're the one writing the checks.
Let me know when Champ car turns down a three year deal with a sanction fee from Road America.
OUtstanding post. As far as that event in SJ goes. If someone had broken and speared the wall after jumping the mogul with traffic behind them, you would have had multiple serious injuries and/or a fatality. Stupidest f'n thing I've ever seen in open wheel racing.
At least we know you're not watching the IRL.
I think you're being overly dramatic. An accident after the tracks wouldn't have been any worse than hitting the wall at Milwaukee. Of course there's always the possibility of injury when you're talking about hitting concrete, but i60 at an angle isn't anything these cars haven't seen before.
Columbus? Now you've crossed the line pal. :flame:
Hasn't the great Dam of Mid-Ohio built those condos over that track yet? :gomer:
In Columbus we run under the railroad tracks like a proper street race. Just don't try to go under side-by-side. :)
Methanolandbrats
08-02-05, 11:33 PM
At least we know you're not watching the IRL.
I think you're being overly dramatic. An accident after the tracks wouldn't have been any worse than hitting the wall at Milwaukee. Of course there's always the possibility of injury when you're talking about hitting concrete, but i60 at an angle isn't anything these cars haven't seen before. Uh, 20 feet wide, first car sideways, 10 more coming.....very different.
FCYTravis
08-02-05, 11:35 PM
What do you call Portland?
Um, the one that I was talking about?
Um, the one that I was talking about?
Right, misread that sentence.
Uh, 20 feet wide, first car sideways, 10 more coming.....very different.I believe it's wider than 20 feet at the exit of the chicane.
The same rules of physics apply in San Jose as everywhere else. They're not going to hit any harder there than they did in the pileups in Vancouver or Surfers. Obviously there's always the potential for injury, but you're being melodramatic.
coolhand
08-03-05, 02:53 AM
concerning going back to tracks like RA, MO and Laguna:
The only way Champ Car will go back to those places is if a promoter comes forwards offering to pay X million as a sanctioning fee and is will to do San Jose like promoting. That will not happen in the near future but i wont say never.
The other way is if Champ Car sees value and will promote it itself. I dont see that happening.
Look at the new races, Edmonton, San jose, Ansan, and Bejing. They all had willing 3rd parties come forward who took on the financial burden and are willing to do the marketing to make it work.
Whoever owns Laguna, MO, and RA are not willing to do what needed, and until someone does Champ Car is never comming back.
What Motogp did was promising and sad at the same time, they made champ like look pethetic with their crowd, but it showed if we could have promoters like Red Bull and Yamaha come in it could work.
Dr. Corkski
08-03-05, 03:42 AM
What Motogp did was promising and sad at the same time, they made champ like look pethetic with their crowd, but it showed if we could have promoters like Red Bull and Yamaha come in it could work.The promotion of the Laguna MotoGP was not even anywhere close to that of the SJGP around here.
Insomniac
08-03-05, 10:30 AM
Now how are you going to get anyone to go out to a real race track when your entire fan base is essentially people that can't drive for more than 15 minutes to get to a race track?
They won't. The event fans would subsidize the race fans. :)
Insomniac
08-03-05, 10:37 AM
Would this ever work?
GP of San Jose followed by a race at Laguna Seca the following weekend. The thinking being a fair amount of the event people may go to LS. They could promote it diretly to the people there. Even offer a discount in tickets. Buy them both at once, get $X off. Or after San Jose get $X off LS tickets. Obviously for other sports, people are willing to attend many games in a season. Would people be willing to see ChampCar again a week later in the same market?
I think back-to-back events in the same market are almost never a good idea. If San Jose continues and grows then an event at least two months apart at LS might benefit.
Interesting piece from David Phillips on SpeedTV:
http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/18636/
In my opinion, the San Jose event suffered from a potentially fatal disconnect, given that Kneifel and 3D (whose long association with Champ Car co-owner and Mexico City/Monterrey co-promoter Gerald Forsythe came to abrupt end last year) did not exactly see eye to eye on matters. Again, they worked like dogs – Kneifel in particular worked through Thursday and Friday nights without rest. To their credit, neither Kneifel or 3D’s Ron Dickson, pointed fingers – publicly anyway – at one other. But it was clear the right hand and the left hand were not working in harmony.
3D is the company that has done track design for a lot of the recent new events, including Forsythe's events in Mexico.
pferrf1
08-03-05, 11:19 AM
Then there is no 'event' anymore.
indyfan31
08-03-05, 11:52 AM
You still don't majorly disrupt a major mass transit system for three days on behalf of a bunch of partiers getting drunk.
You do if they're bringing a boatload of revenue to the city and local businesses.
The track was crap and should be started over from scratch anyway. You're telling me they can't find a single course that doesn't have a rail grade crossing? :shakehead
This is agree on 100%
extramundane
08-03-05, 12:44 PM
You do if they're bringing a boatload of revenue to the city and local businesses.
I guess it depends how heavily the Light Rail is used. I don't think the residents of, say, Baltimore would even notice if Light Rail didn't run for a couple days (as long as the Orioles/Ravens aren't playing). Toronto, on the other hand...
JohnHKart
08-04-05, 05:13 AM
Yikes.
http://www.nascar.com/2002/news/headlines/bg/08/22/mharmon_crash/huge-crash_xl.jpg
I remembered Harmon's crash when the gate opening was mentioned but I wasn't sure if he did it too....(the gate opening) yeah a couple of years ago Sheesh!!! It even ended up on Dateline or Primetime Live.
John
coolhand
08-04-05, 02:55 PM
The promotion of the Laguna MotoGP was not even anywhere close to that of the SJGP around here.
you are probably right, i guess you could attribute that crowd to having a solid fan base that drew people from all over north America.
When i was in Vancouver alst year for the CC race the Bar tender was telling me how he was going to ride his bike down to laguna for motoGp.
Dr. Corkski
08-04-05, 11:08 PM
you are probably right, i guess you could attribute that crowd to having a solid fan base that drew people from all over north America.
When i was in Vancouver alst year for the CC race the Bar tender was telling me how he was going to ride his bike down to laguna for motoGp.He must have been lying. If no one is willing to drive 1.5 hrs to watch Champ Cars at Laguna, then how could anyone possibly drive (ride) 1.5 days to go watch something else? Impossible. :gomer:
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