I've taken some time to ponder...

[Racing Truth]

and that's NEVER a good thing! ;) :D At any rate, the result is as follows. I posted the following on mnkywrch's ('member him? :cool: ) racing blog today.

"You know, wrench, after Edmonton, I was tempted to say that Kalkhoven might have been right with his ideas. Then came San Jose.

I've been contemplating this since Edmonton, and I've decided that I still have a fundamental problem with KK's (dare I say) "vision." Edmonton was fantastic, pure and simple, a pure joy. But I still have a problem w/ the notion of an urban, street festival dominated series. To be sure, some can be great (Edmonton, though that's airport, but same idea) and then you have San Jose. San Jose aside, am I the only one who is less than thrilled with running all street circuits? Regardless of the quality, I fear they'll all blend together and look the same.

Then there's the argument some of us have had at OffCamber, namely that these street shows will pay for future returns to Road America, Laguna, etc. But this makes no sense. Kevin has said that he believes in the urban street model. Granted, Tony George has made us cynical, but if we take him at his word (and I have no reason to do otherwise), then that eliminates that. Beyond that, if the streets prove profitable, why would a solid businessman like Kalkhoven abandon them?

To be sure, at least there is a true plan here, unlike the IRL, and overall, I've really enjoyed the year so far. But I'm not thrilled with the trends I'm seeing."

I know, I know, D&G. But I'm just calling it as I see it, and its still better than anything Tony George will come up with.

[Dirty Sanchez]

as long as other people are making money, I'm happy :gomer:

[cameraman]

Kevin has said that he believes in the urban street model.

But he has never said "that he believes in the urban street model to the exclusion of all else". It is only half way through of the second season and we do not know what their plans are for next year. I think everybody just needs to relax a little.

[Racing Truth]

Let me add that if, as another thread discusses, Gordon Kirby is right and Despain is inherently wrong, then why isn't ChampCar challenging NASCAR domination? The answer, IMHO, is that when it comes to street races, those that attend are there for a number of reasons. To be sure, some are indeed race fans who know what's going on. Others, I SUSPECT, go b/c it is a significant sporting event IN THEIR CITY (call it civic pride or curiosity). This does not mean they'll follow the series once it exits stage left. Others are, simply put, event fans. Drifting, pageants, etc. Makes for a great weekend, no doubt. It also strikes me as trying to hide your product. Kalkhoven has used the phrase (or something like it) "festivals of speed." It strikes me that such an approach indicates a belief that the racing product you're offering is not good enough to stand on its own.

Now, I'm not suggesting that we abandon good marketing (h=ll, could we START having some good marketing?) or PR, or other things to keep others interested. But I fear that the racing is almost becoming less of the centerpiece that it should be.

On the positive side, there is the EXTREMELY positive Atlantics announcement. As much as I've gone about questioning whether KK gets the "racing" part of the equation, this is indeed evidence that he DOES. An affordable feeder series is something this sport has needed forever. A compettitive ladder, w/ serious involvement from those at the top level, might be one of the best things to happen to ChampCar, as ultimately, more deserving drivers (hopefully more Americans, but that's NOT a requirement) will get a chance to drive over ride-buying wankers.

So, what am I left thinking? In short, I'm not sure. Either way, I'll enjoy it. Its still better than anything coming from the IRL. But that doesn't mean I'm w/o concern.

[NismoZ]

Concern is good. Wanna start a club?

[pferrf1]

NO ONE could challenge NASCAR today. That is a fact. THey are so big that in effect, they are racing in the US. Some general news websites don't even list motorsports as a category for news anymore - just NASCAR. To expect one or two years of new management to jump CCWS up against NASCRAP is completely unrealistic.

Before you go off on the CCWS model - take a closer look:

The CCWS model is 'urban' races - not necessarily STREET races. Case in point:

Montreal
Portland
Mexico City
Monterrey
Ansan

All of the above are permanent road circuits used on a temporary basis - that are within the urban area of the target market.

IF you look at CCWS's ovals LVMS and Milwaukee, they too are within the target market - not miles and miles out in the country. Edmonton and Cleveland are unique tracks using airports that are also in urban locations that give the cars room to race.

As for their street races, I think arguments could be made that Toronto, Long Beach and Surfers are great circuits that promote good racing. I'd argue that a race at these circuits is far better than races at someof the recent F! permanent Taj Mahal Tilke circuits that look nice, but are not racy (i.e. Malaysia, Bahrain, etc.

We're left with Denver and San Jose. If Denver can produce a good race again, then I'l be sold that the track changes were sufficient ot make that a good track. San Jose obviously needs fixing, but it sounds like the city did not want the track to be large the first year, so the promoter did what they could. Interestingly enough - the next new CCWS race in China is on a permanent race track - how ironic.

I think truly the CCWS model is to have their races as part of urban events, that are taken seriously in their home markets. The challenge for CCWS is to work very hard at converting all these attendess into permanent series fans that follow the entire season, watch on Tv, go to other races and spread the word.

How to do tha is the topic for a whole other thread.

[mello]

as long as other people are making money, I'm happy :gomer:

Wow! Never thought of it, but I guess I did make money over the last 2 years. Used to go to 3 races a year, on an average of $2000 per race that is $6000. Times 2 years of not going to a race = $12000. Dang I wish I would have put it away and thought like that though.
:cry:

[RaceGrrl]

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/curtain.gif



Hi Mel- glad to see you around!

[mello]

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/curtain.gif



Hi Mel- glad to see you around!
Hi sweets!! Hope you are doing well!

[Steve99]

I believe KK has said that once they are on stable footing then they can look at getting back to some of the traditional road-courses.

[stroker]

Guys, at the risk of preaching to the choir, based on my observation of the last 10 years I'd suggest:

1. The significant majority of people who attended CART races were what we'd call "casual fans".
2. Those fans held a value that Indy was the hallmark of AOW, just as Daytona is to the cabbers.
3. Over those 10 years, the casual fans dried up for CC (due to the lack of Indy) and simply never materialized for the .1RL (pick your reason), leaving unacceptably low turnout in most traditional AOW venues.
4. NASCAR, with their cohesiveness and competent marketing, drew a sizeable portion of those casual fans.
5. Point 3 leaves the Amigos with the only alternative of going after a new market, thus giving us the Urban Event Race and so-called "event fans".
6. Drawing a distinction between Casual Fans and Event Fans is futile. They're both basically the same demographic, that is, not us.
7. The only way to get Event Fans to become us is to get them to an event (somehow) and to get them excited about something that's part of their lives. Compared to FTG's model, the Urban Event Race is clearly (based on demonstrable results) a superior option.

Nothing in what I've seen shows any problem with ultimately returning to RA, MO, etc. However, CC needs to undertake an enormous task of finding almost a completely new fan base and then generating enough incentive for them to rejoin we Serious Fans back at traditional road course venues. That, simply, is going to take a few years... In the meantime, if we can have Urban Event Races similar to Denver/Edmonton in the future, supported by good events in Canada and Mexico, then I can live on that. It's not what I'd like to eat, but it'll get me by.

[JoeBob]

If you want to have a fun mental exercise, consider this:

Street Racing is to Road Racing as Supercross is to Motocross.

I've been considering that a lot lately. I've had some thoughts on it, but I'm they're not yet ready to be published.

[pchall]

I know, I know, D&G. But I'm just calling it as I see it, and its still better than anything Tony George will come up with.

Geeze... and here I thought you finally decided to change your nick to something realistic and believeable.

[RTKar]

Wow! Never thought of it, but I guess I did make money over the last 2 years. Used to go to 3 races a year, on an average of $2000 per race that is $6000. Times 2 years of not going to a race = $12000. Dang I wish I would have put it away and thought like that though.
:cry:

:thumbup: me too, I'm making money on Champcar but I'm losing it on ALMS, historics, dirt trackin' & other stuff.

[fourrunner]

:thumbup: me too, I'm making money on Champcar but I'm losing it on ALMS, historics, dirt trackin' & other stuff.

I'm going to stop going to Champ Car Races, and do something totally Normal & Logical ... Become a "Scientologist" !

[RTKar]

I'm going to stop going to Champ Car Races, and do something totally Normal & Logical ... Become a "Scientologist" !

"A civilization without insanity, without criminals and without war, where the able can prosper and honest beings can have rights, and where man is free to rise to greater heights, are the aims of Scientology,"

[rjohnson999]

The last two great utopian movements ended badly after doing bad things for a long time.


"A civilization without insanity, without criminals and without war, where the able can prosper and honest beings can have rights, and where man is free to rise to greater heights, are the aims of Scientology,"

[DjDrOmusic]

I'm going to stop going to Champ Car Races, and do something totally Normal & Logical ... Become a "Scientologist" !

Calling Mr. Cruise! Tell us the history of(insert topic here) Mr. Cruise!! ;) :D

I was normal once.......ONCE! :rofl: