SeanO, I'll admit it. [Archive]

Andrew Longman

08-16-05, 01:19 PM

Saw the Grandam race on Friday and it was much improved over years past.

Car count and quality was way up. Prototypes are actually fast and look much better than before. GTs were more professional,varied and competitive.

I went with my wife's cousin and he absolutely loved it.

Without a doubt it was the best race of the weekend.

RichK

08-16-05, 01:25 PM

EXPEL the demons, Andrew, EXPEL THE DEMONS!!!!!

cameraman

08-16-05, 01:40 PM

Prototypes ... ... look much better than before.

Ummm, not so much but it was a good race.

Sean O'Gorman

08-16-05, 01:40 PM

Never expected to see that on this forum. :o

Glad you liked it. Once you get past the looks and the other things you look for in "traditional" sports car racing, you realize it is pretty good stuff. :thumbup:

extramundane

08-16-05, 01:50 PM

Prototypes are actually fast

Compared to what?

rabbit

08-16-05, 01:52 PM

Compared to what?
http://www.meblan.net/cars/tracer.jpg

;)

Andrew Longman

08-16-05, 02:10 PM

EXPEL the demons, Andrew, EXPEL THE DEMONS!!!!!

All right. Work has been gruelling for months. This was my only vacation this summer other than a long weekend to Cleveland for the CC race. It rained Friday afternoon literally from the moment I took my seat to watch Busch practice until just before the the Grandam race. Maybe I was jonesin' for a little high speed diversion.

But it was sweet to listen to the Porsche GTs and BMWs winding up through the gears out of T1 and up the esses. There were I think 44 cars in the field and no one was absolutely stinking up track. The DPs have changed from a horrible mistake that was hard to even look at to something that you can at least pretend is genuine prototype. They still only lap 1-2 seconds faster than the Cup cars though. And way slower than CanAm cars that ran there 30+ years ago.

But I'll say it again. It was the best race of the weekend, even if I gor to watch Robbie Gordon come through the field 4 times in 2 days.

cameraman

08-16-05, 02:10 PM

Compared to what?

The other vehicles on the track at the same time.
That is all that matters.

A P1 is not anywhere near as fast as an F1 car, should the ALMS just close up shop?

RichK

08-16-05, 02:16 PM

All right. Work has been gruelling for months. This was my only vacation this summer other than a long weekend to Cleveland for the CC race. It rained Friday afternoon literally from the moment I took my seat to watch Busch practice until just before the the Grandam race. Maybe I was jonesin' for a little high speed diversion.

But it was sweet to listen to the Porsche GTs and BMWs winding up through the gears out of T1 and up the esses. There were I think 44 cars in the field and no one was absolutely stinking up track. The DPs have changed from a horrible mistake that was hard to even look at to something that you can at least pretend is genuine prototype. They still only lap 1-2 seconds faster than the Cup cars though. And way slower than CanAm cars that ran there 25+ years ago.

:) I'm just joking with you, anyway. I just received free hospitality passes & tickets to the earl show at Sonoma. :eek: I won't even have the pleasure of cool support races like you saw, except for the historical F1 cars if I go Saturday.

FCYTravis

08-16-05, 03:18 PM

Hey Andrew, ya shoulda looked me up ;)

I wasn't going to post about the race because the flame wars have been there, done that - but it's nice to see someone appreciating the racing. I completely agree that the cars still don't look so hot and they could be a little faster... but the racing action is simply frickin' insane.

Thanks for coming out, and hope to see you at another Grand-Am race soon.

extramundane

08-16-05, 03:23 PM

A P1 is not anywhere near as fast as an F1 car, should the ALMS just close up shop?

Call me crazy, but when your premier class couldn't beat a GT3 RS in a straight-up fight, speed isn't something you should be bragging about.

(insert O'Gorman calling me an idiot)

Sean O'Gorman

08-16-05, 03:34 PM

Call me crazy, but when your premier class couldn't beat a GT3 RS in a straight-up fight, speed isn't something you should be bragging about.

(insert O'Gorman calling me an idiot)

Says who? The fastest a GT3-R or GTS-RS ever qualified in a Watkins Glen Grand-Am race was in the 1:16s. The Daytona Prototypes now do 1:08s there.

Of course, seeing as how the Cup cars do 1:12s, and the old Park Place Saleen S7 only did 1:11s in qualifying in previous years of Grand-Am GTS competition, maybe ALMS should be ashamed of itself for having GT cars that are slower than the behemoth Cup cars. ;)

cameraman

08-16-05, 04:48 PM

nissan gtp

08-16-05, 08:09 PM

I dislike DP's because the are the low-tech, NASCAR-ization of road racing. I could like with that if the cars looked good. They don't, they are downright ugly, especially the rileys. I wish they would cut the greenhouse size way down.

cameraman

08-16-05, 08:39 PM

It takes a while but eventually you can get beyond the heinous looks of the DPs. The racing is interesting but it sure ain't beautiful.

Ankf00

08-16-05, 08:45 PM

SeanO, I'll admit it.

Mistake #1
Mistake #2
Mistake #3
.
.
.
Mistake #99999999999999999999999

pchall

08-16-05, 08:51 PM

I wish they would cut the greenhouse size way down.

Off with their heads!

Well, roofs at least. And 200 HP more would be nice.

Michaelhatesfans

08-16-05, 10:13 PM

Glad you liked it. Once you get past the looks and the other things you look for...
Yeah, that's it. Just think of it as a pig ugly girl at closing time. :thumbup:

extramundane

08-16-05, 10:20 PM

Says who? The fastest a GT3-R or GTS-RS ever qualified in a Watkins Glen Grand-Am race was in the 1:16s. The Daytona Prototypes now do 1:08s there.

Sure is funny that when it became clear that RS's would be very capable of beating DPs for overall wins, GARRA began to cripple them, before effectively banning them outright.

extramundane

08-16-05, 10:29 PM

Oh please :rolleyes:

You're slagging the DP's because they are not as fast as what the ALMS runs.

By the same logic ALMS must suck because the best Andy Wallace could do a couple weeks ago at PIR was a 1:02.712 (112.744 MPH) whereas Justin Wilson turned a 57.808 (122.308) in a Champ Car. (And if you don't think Fernando Alonso or Kimi Raikkonen in their current rides could blow Wilson's PIR time away you're doubly dreaming).

The GA race last weekend was a fun race to watch, simple as that.

I'm slagging the DPs because, among other reasons, they're slow as sportscars go. Plop them down in an ACO-spec race and they'd be right in the thick of the battle...in GT2. I've said before: stop restricting the engines so much, and cut the greenhouses down to Crawford/Chase-ish (and have some people not named "France" or "Edmundson" run the series, but that's another rant), then we'll talk. But as to my original point, "fast" isn't a descriptor I would choose.

As for your analogy above, you're comparing apples to elephants.

FCYTravis

08-16-05, 10:45 PM

Yes, and the fact that RSRs are not allowed in GAGT is clearly driving GT-class competitors away from the "dumbed-down" series in droves.

That must be why there are more GT cars entered in the Grand-Am EMCO Gears Road Racing Classic at Mid-Ohio than there are cars entered in all four classes at the next ALMS race.

:laugh:

FCYTravis

08-16-05, 10:54 PM

Sean O'Gorman

08-16-05, 10:58 PM

Oh yeah, and for the life of me I can't understand why you hate the Frances so much. They only built a backwater Southern sport into the biggest racing series in North America.

Not to mention all the help they gave IMSA. Alot of people here tend to forget how much input they had in the greatest factory era of sports car racing. Of course, unlike Panoz, they learned from their mistakes and aren't doomed to repeat them.

Sean O'Gorman

08-16-05, 11:00 PM

I dislike DP's because the are the low-tech, NASCAR-ization of road racing.

How are they low-tech? I seriously think when some people say that, they mean that they just "look" low-tech. Which is probably why you said you'd watch them if they were better looking.

But seriously, can you "see" technology as the cars are racing? Can you tell the diff between a direct injection system like the Audi vs. a carburated car as they drive by? What about the chassis? Does it really matter if it is carbon fiber or tube frame as two cars battle in a hairpin?

Really, the only way you can see the difference is when one series has 20 cars running in the class, and the other has four. :laugh:

FCYTravis

08-16-05, 11:01 PM

The most sophisticated part of an LMP is the electronic engine control system.

DPs have those too. Look in the cockpit - ours says Bosch.

Is the Riley & Scott MkIIIC a piece of NASCARized junk because it uses ancient, outdated steel-tube spaceframe technology? Are the Lola B2K/40s "wankermobiles" because they use obsolete deathtrap aluminum honeycomb construction?

The looks? Well, I agree. Fine. They don't look great (except maybe the Crawford.) But neither do modern F1 cars.

The Riley might look ungainly - but it's the fastest car out there, and last I checked sports car racing was a contest of speed and endurance, not beauty.

If you want sleek lines, go to a concours. If you want racing, go to a Grand-Am race. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Easy solution to that.

extramundane

08-16-05, 11:33 PM

Oh yeah, and for the life of me I can't understand why you hate the Frances so much. They only built a backwater Southern sport into the biggest racing series in North America.

I mean, sports car racing would be so much better off with, say, Tony George, Bobby Rahal or Joltin' Joe Heitzler, right? Gosh, we couldn't possibly do worse than the most successful series owners in history.

If the Frances do for sports car racing one-third of what they did for stock cars, we'll have the biggest and most popular road racing series in the history of the United States.

I fail to see how that would be a bad thing.

Simple: NASCAR is to racing what KFC is to chicken. Marketing success =! quality of racing. But maybe if we get lucky, American sportscar racing can emulate NASCAR to the point that foreign drivers get booed simply for being foreign. Wouldn't that be awesome!

Oh yeah, and what's this obsession with cutting the roofs off? Real sports cars have closed cockpits.

I said nothing about cutting the roof off, only cutting the greenhouse down to less obnoxious heights.

Ankf00

08-16-05, 11:36 PM

I said nothing about cutting the roof off, only cutting the greenhouse down to less obnoxious heights.

people remember the winning cars, not the merely "aesthetically pleasing" ones

FCYTravis

08-16-05, 11:53 PM

But maybe if we get lucky, American sportscar racing can emulate NASCAR to the point that foreign drivers get booed simply for being foreign. Wouldn't that be awesome!
Sure, taken to the extreme, emulating that would be bad. No disagreement there.

But I haven't seen anything like that happen in Grand-Am, have you? If it starts happening, you can complain all you want. But all I see is a series that has a goal of building strong grids and attracting fans. Given the obvious and dramatic increase in the former and the steady growth of the latter compared to last year, their strategy seems to be working, n'est-ce pas?

Tim

08-17-05, 02:06 AM

Geez are you guys going to hate me for going to the ALMS race this weekend?

Sean O'Gorman

08-17-05, 09:43 AM

Geez are you guys going to hate me for going to the ALMS race this weekend?

Did any Grand-Am supporter say that ALMS isn't worth watching? I was at the Mid-Ohio round back in May, and it was a great race.

This isn't CART/IRL for sports cars, the two series complement each other, not compete against each other. The only people who have a problem with Grand-Am are the ones that think it is the reason why no one runs a P1 in ALMS.

racer2c

08-17-05, 10:08 AM

Oh yeah, and for the life of me I can't understand why you hate the Frances so much. They only built a backwater Southern sport into the biggest racing series in North America.

I mean, sports car racing would be so much better off with, say, Tony George, Bobby Rahal or Joltin' Joe Heitzler, right? Gosh, we couldn't possibly do worse than the most successful series owners in history.

If the Frances do for sports car racing one-third of what they did for stock cars, we'll have the biggest and most popular road racing series in the history of the United States.

I fail to see how that would be a bad thing.

Oh yeah, and what's this obsession with cutting the roofs off? Real sports cars have closed cockpits.

NASCAR should own all racing. Then maybe I could get a box of Tide with Bourdais' face on it. Finally!!!!!!!!!!
Can you say Paul Tracy KleeneX? I certaintly can! :) :thumbup:

Easy

08-17-05, 10:16 AM

I thought the ALMS was bad because Dallara has built like half of the P1 chassis that have run in the last 5 years...
:gomer:

nrc

08-17-05, 10:23 AM

The only people who have a problem with Grand-Am are the ones that think it is the reason why no one runs a P1 in ALMS.

Glad to see that your omniscience is still fully functional.

pchall

08-17-05, 10:31 AM

Oh yeah, and what's this obsession with cutting the roofs off? Real sports cars have closed cockpits.

That's either really funny or some kind of sadly weird prototype fetish. At one time "real sports cars" also carried two FIA suitcases and a useable spare tire. Of course, some those cars also competed in roadster form. I suppose you discount all open top winners of LeMans because they were not "real sports cars"?

devilmaster

08-17-05, 10:34 AM

NASCAR should own all racing. Then maybe I could get a box of Tide with Bourdais' face on it. Finally!!!!!!!!!!
Can you say Paul Tracy KleeneX? I certaintly can! :) :thumbup:

Speaking of Tide, went into Walmart the other day and saw a large cardboard cutout with Andrew Ranger and Tide on it.... Some charity thing. Problem was, they hid it behind their store flyer display basket.... must go steal it for a souvenir... those old fart greeters aren't going to catch me.

Andrew Longman

08-17-05, 11:27 AM

I guess I'm sorry I brought this up. I did it mostly because only a few years ago GA at the Glen had only about 14 cars in the entire field and several had no business being out there. On the weekend it was not even worth seeing and few hung around to do so. Originally it was a huge disappointment to see them replace the modifieds that raced before them.

My problem with GA is/has been that a) the France family runs it and their span of control is scary, largely unchecked and at times abused (that could be a whole other thread), and b) the DPs are disappointing faux prototypes.

Say what you will, but genuine sophistication and technology has and should have some importance in creating appeal for the sport. A Cup car may have a pushrod engine and a carb, but it is purpose built and much faster and safer than the real "stock" car I can buy in a showroom. And it puts out a massive amount of HP. A Lola champcar is simply beautiful and there are many "engineering solutions" to study and ponder. A prototype sportscar is supposed to be just that; prototype. It is a collection of new ideas about how to go fast. In itself a tube frame, equalized engine series cannot be prototype.

I'm not against the concept of what DP is trying to do, just don't call it prototype and make it significantly faster from a Cup car. Otherwise it is just a rear engined Cup car with a sleeker (but not necessarily prettier) body on it.

devilmaster

08-17-05, 11:32 AM

I guess I'm sorry I brought this up.

Don't feel bad. It would have come up again sooner or later in someone else's thread.... ;)

Easy

08-17-05, 12:04 PM

A prototype sportscar is supposed to be just that; prototype. It is a collection of new ideas about how to go fast. In itself a tube frame, equalized engine series cannot be prototype.

I'm not against the concept of what DP is trying to do, just don't call it prototype and make it significantly faster from a Cup car. Otherwise it is just a rear engined Cup car with a sleeker (but not necessarily prettier) body on it.

Again, prototype refers to the fact that it is a non-production car. Prototype has no implicit reference to exoticness of material used in construction or to relative performance.

Sean O'Gorman

08-17-05, 12:25 PM

I don't see why you people get so up in arms whenever Grand-Am is brought up. Someone said he watched a race and found it more entertaining than he expected, it is no reason to bash the series.

I may not agree with the ALMS philosophy, but I've been supportive of it in recent months as they've gained more factory interest. It is just that I know how this is going to end, just like every other factory-centered road racing series. Excuse me for being enthusiastic about a series that avoids this inevitable downfall. :rolleyes:

Andrew Longman

08-17-05, 12:29 PM

Again, prototype refers to the fact that it is a non-production car. Prototype has no implicit reference to exoticness of material used in construction or to relative performance.

Prototype also means "original". It represents new ideas that will be copied and built upon.

You could argue that something could be original and also be old, slower, and contain little innovation (like cooking a meal from a recipe but using only half the ingredients and using margarine instead of butter and Coolwhip instead of cream).

But that not what prototype has always meant in terms of racing. Its always meant something new and original to improve performance or conform to a new rule constraint. Otherwise, why would you do it?

I suppose you could also argue the DPs are innovation in response to very seriously constraining rules. I guess I could buy that. Then I just don't like the rules. Its like being in a cooking contest where you can make what you want so long as you make it out of cheez wiz.

pchall

08-17-05, 01:27 PM

I'm not against the concept of what DP is trying to do, just don't call it prototype and make it significantly faster from a Cup car. Otherwise it is just a rear engined Cup car with a sleeker (but not necessarily prettier) body on it.

Daytona Prototype (ack!) cars are very similar to what the "Humpy GTP" proposal was in the 80s. Anybody else remember that? They were to be mid-engined Cup cars with bodywork that simulated the look of various production cars with headlights and windshields but not the backlight, morphing them into the then current IMSA GTP idiom if not specification.

I thought they were a dumb idea then and this iteration is no better from my perspective. If people want to race them, however, it's fine by me.

On the whole, I'd be much more interested in a sprint race series featuring P2 cars without the ACO air restrictor standards. That would be sportscar racing much more in the North American tradition. And if somebody really wants a roof, they are welcome to oven braise their drivers on sunny afternoons.

devilmaster

08-17-05, 01:35 PM

And if somebody really wants a roof, they are welcome to oven braise their drivers on sunny afternoons.

I just know you got a recipe for that, peter... ;)

FCYTravis

08-17-05, 01:38 PM

Then I suppose the R&S MkIII and Lola B2K/40 aren't real prototypes either, right? They have those oh-so-backwards tube and aluminum construction. Why aren't you mentioning the fact that the ALMS is allowing these ugly, "fake" prototypes into their race at Road America this weekend? Obviously they're so unsophisticated that they don't deserve to be on the same track with the R8.

Oh, and those restrictor plates on every ALMS air intake... how completely NASCARized, jeez, Don Panoz and the ACO must be in cahoots with NASCAR to destroy sports car racing :gomer:

The ALMS isn't "real" sports car racing any more than the Grand-Am is "real" sports car racing. Both are put together based on highly restricted rulesets that are often tweaked to change competitive advantages.

The difference is that the Grand-Am's ruleset has attracted competitors, whereas the ALMS' rules haven't.

racer2c

08-17-05, 01:41 PM

Then I suppose the R&S MkIII and Lola B2K/40 aren't real prototypes either, right? They have those oh-so-backwards tube and aluminum construction. Why aren't you bashing the fact that the ALMS is allowing these ugly, "fake" prototypes into their race at Road America this weekend? Obviously they're so unsophisticated that they don't deserve to be on the same track with the R8.

Oh, and those restrictor plates on every ALMS air intake... how completely NASCARized, jeez, Don Panoz and the ACO must be in cahoots with NASCAR to destroy sports car racing :gomer:

Do the plates keep them bunched in packs for EGGCITING SIDE-BY-SIDE RACIN'?!?!?!?! :gomer:

FCYTravis

08-17-05, 01:46 PM

If the ALMS could ever get more than four competitive P1s entered at the same time you might see some good, bunched pack racing.

nrc

08-17-05, 03:01 PM

I don't see why you people get so up in arms whenever Grand-Am is brought up.

You said you did in your last post. Did you change your mind?

Andrew Longman

08-17-05, 05:25 PM

The difference is that the Grand-Am's ruleset has attracted competitors, whereas the ALMS' rules haven't.

Very fair point. But while I enjoyed the race I do not get excited by the cars (the DPs anyway). That's just the way it is.

I don't get excited by Cup cars either and only go to the Glen because its sort of family tradition with my brother-in-law, its on a road course, One of these days a ringer is going to win, and the state park makes for nice camping. In no way does GA get me excited enough to go to the other 3-4 races they have at the Glen each year. I might if the cars were a bit more exotic.

Easy

08-17-05, 05:34 PM

Prototype also means "original". It represents new ideas that will be copied and built upon.

You could argue that something could be original and also be old, slower, and contain little innovation (like cooking a meal from a recipe but using only half the ingredients and using margarine instead of butter and Coolwhip instead of cream).

But that not what prototype has always meant in terms of racing. Its always meant something new and original to improve performance or conform to a new rule constraint. Otherwise, why would you do it?

I suppose you could also argue the DPs are innovation in response to very seriously constraining rules. I guess I could buy that. Then I just don't like the rules. Its like being in a cooking contest where you can make what you want so long as you make it out of cheez wiz.

Yes, but in sports car racing, the term prototype serves to differentiate the class from the GT or PRODUCTION based classes. It means they are not based on production cars.

Semantics are fun :p

Andrew Longman

08-17-05, 06:46 PM

Yes, but in sports car racing, the term prototype serves to differentiate the class from the GT or PRODUCTION based classes. It means they are not based on production cars.

Semantics are fun :p

Yes it does differentiate from the production cars for rules purposes, but why is there a prototype class at all and why do fans care?

Because those cars are not limited by the design, engineering and facts of a given production car and the builders are more free to do what they want to innovate and go faster. From a fan's perspective, that's what prototypes have always meant. For the fans that like that and for the teams that want to compete in that realm, DPs are wanting.

No reason for people to get into a pissfest over it though. As Sean and other said, at least they have a sustainable model and produce decent racing. And the model some crave has proven again and again to be pretty fragile. Some just shouldn't pretend GA is something it is not and others should quit complaining that it isn't what they want. It is what it is, unique to itself. And you'll either like NASCAR sports cars or you won't.

FCYTravis

08-17-05, 07:42 PM

More shameless destruction of road-racing traditions:

http://www.grandamerican.com/News/Article.asp?ID=4819

"The jump in households reached was good enough to put the Rolex Series in some impressive company as one of the top-five motorsports series race event programs on SPEED in the first half of 2005. The rankings, which are based on the average number of households reached, saw the Rolex Series join the Crown Royal IROC Series, the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series, the ARCA Re/Max Series and Formula One as the top-five most watched auto racing series on SPEED so far this year."

Oh yeah... and more people watched the Grand-Am Barber Motorsports Park race than watched either the ALMS race at Portland or the Champ Car race at San Jose.

Sean O'Gorman

08-17-05, 10:02 PM

You said you did in your last post. Did you change your mind?

What are you talking about? I said I can see why people don't like Grand-Am, I just don't understand why many of those same people constantly feel the need to rain on the parade of those who do enjoy it.

Like I said, this isn't CART/IRL. What ALMS does has no bearing on Grand-Am, and vice versa.

nrc

08-18-05, 12:29 AM

What are you talking about?

One minute you're claiming that everyone who has a problem with Grand Am doesn't like it because it takes away from ALMS and the next you're saying you don't understand why people have a problem with it. Seems contradictory to me.

As for parade raining, you've got no room to complain because you've provoked it yourself more than once. The topic here is your Grand Am support. If Andrew has a right to post that you're right, others have a right to post that you're wrong. If you see someone rainning in a legitimate racing discussion thread (and it wasn't provoked) feel free to use the report thread button.