Who likes a common chassis/engine and no-conflict schedule?

[ChrisB]

(crosspost)I guess you've all seen the GM announcement and Chip's comments by now?

Look... for many years Bruton Smith begged Bill France to break up NASCAR Winston Cup into East and West divisions so that there would be more races... but Big Bill wouldn't go there... he said that the strength of NASCAR was the fans knowing they'd see the biggest stars all in one place.

Indy/Champ is kinda like that now... We see some of the top drivers in one race, and the others elsewhere.

How about a common car, and a no-conflict schedule, so that at least everyone can be at the same place?

Lola, Cosworth, and Illmor are all we need.

A common spec Lola chassis... no mods allowed except for aero/suspension adjustments. This would prevent Roger, Carl, or anyone else with access to an autoclave from developing exclusive or "must have" parts resulting in an ever escalating cost war which destroys parity, and makes the cars faster which they eventually need to be slowed down anyway. (And preferably with rollhoops, not airboxes!)

Cosworth and Illmor can work out a common engine that'll fit into this Lola. A 3.0 or 3.5L NA engine with a high-flow "turbo sounding" muffler is fine with me. A high rev-limit for roads, lower for ovals would be good too. Badge the Cos as "Ford" and the Illmor as "Honda" or "Dodge". There it is.

Finally, work out a schedule that doesn't conflict, so everyone can show up all at the same time. This is not unlike what many smaller short-track sprint and modified series do. The cars can be used in either series, and they work together so that races don't overlap much.

There doesn't have to be "unification" or a common overall Champion. Each side has their own TV and sponsor deals. Just get everyone together at the same races. Neither side is gonna kill the other.... so work it out you guys!

[devilmaster]

(crosspost)I guess you've all seen the GM announcement and Chip's comments by now?

Look... for many years Bruton Smith begged Bill France to break up NASCAR Winston Cup into East and West divisions so that there would be more races... but Big Bill wouldn't go there... he said that the strength of NASCAR was the fans knowing they'd see the biggest stars all in one place.

Indy/Champ is kinda like that now... We see some of the top drivers in one race, and the others elsewhere.

How about a common car, and a no-conflict schedule, so that at least everyone can be at the same place?

Lola, Cosworth, and Illmor are all we need.

A common spec Lola chassis... no mods allowed except for aero/suspension adjustments. This would prevent Roger, Carl, or anyone else with access to an autoclave from developing exclusive or "must have" parts resulting in an ever escalating cost war which destroys parity, and makes the cars faster which they eventually need to be slowed down anyway. (And preferably with rollhoops, not airboxes!)

Cosworth and Illmor can work out a common engine that'll fit into this Lola. A 3.0 or 3.5L NA engine with a high-flow "turbo sounding" muffler is fine with me. A high rev-limit for roads, lower for ovals would be good too. Badge the Cos as "Ford" and the Illmor as "Honda" or "Dodge". There it is.

Finally, work out a schedule that doesn't conflict, so everyone can show up all at the same time. This is not unlike what many smaller short-track sprint and modified series do. The cars can be used in either series, and they work together so that races don't overlap much.

There doesn't have to be "unification" or a common overall Champion. Each side has their own TV and sponsor deals. Just get everyone together at the same races. Neither side is gonna kill the other.... so work it out you guys!


I know you know this Chris, but there is only 1 person whom this rant should be directed at. Tony doesn't want to join, capitulate or make a deal. He wants it all. So Chip can whine in the paper like he's some great effin saviour all he wants, but if he apparently can't convince TG, and Penske can't convince TG, who can?

[mapguy]

Nope. Nothing but complete capitulation from the other side will do. FTG goes back to being a track owner.

[DaveL]

Screw 'em. Idiotgrandson got himself into this mess. Let him try to get out of it. If I was CC sending him a life raft, I'd make sure it had a 200lb weight attached to it.

[RusH]

George won`t let that happen. Forget about the common chassis. But what could work, with very little effort, is a non conflicting schedule without anyone loosing their pride. The common driver would boost fan interest in the sport.
ALMS and Grand Am do it.

But it makes too much sense.

[stroker]

Personally, I'm not interested.

But thanks for the offer.

:)

[Andrew Longman]

I think it creates more confusion for fans and in turn sponsors and broadcasters (Now who's running this week?) It makes it harder to promote drivers (proven the way to big success for a series) and harder to cement an identity for the series.

As a practical matter, given a choice most teams I think would opt for the CCWS races anyway given that attendance is generally higher and it is less damaging to equipment than running mostly ovals.

Other than Indy, there is not a lot to draw teams to the IRL schedule. Let's see, Pikes Peak or Denver? SJ or Sonoma? Montreal or Watkins Glen? Kentucky or Edmonton?

[KLang]

No thanks. It seems the 'earl problem' may go away on its own anyway. :laugh:

[Jervis Tetch 1]

Show TG no mercy. Period.

[CART T. Katz]

Let's see, Pikes Peak or Denver? SJ or Sonoma? Montreal or Watkins Glen? Kentucky or Edmonton?

personally, i'd pick kentucky, but then again i have selfish reasons for that :gomer:

[swift]

Who likes a common chassis/engine and no-conflict schedule?

i'll tell you who doesn't- a certain indiana superspeedway owner.
"... reports surfaced earlier this month that suggesting the [reunification] idea was D.O.A. -- IRL founder Tony George said he saw little to be gained from a common rules package"
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/17093/

if there was a common spec, sponsors would want their teams to be exposed to the most eyeballs- i.e. mexico city, edmonton, surfer's, long beach; regular stops on the champcar schedule. of course, these champcar teams would cherry-pick the indy 500 (good tv ratings, many casual fans check it out) with their compatible equipment. but after that one IRL race, its back on the hunt for the vanderbuilt cup.

one of the goals/principles of the IRL (probably the only remaining one from its inception) is that its spectators will be seeing the "stars of indy". if the common spec is adopted, the "stars of indy" will be found at champcar events in portland and cleveland, not IRL events texas and kansas in the weeks following the checkers falling at the brickyard.

[Rocketdoc]

Stroker has said it for me.

I've followed Champ Car/Cart from USAC through the beginning of this year.

I favor Champ Cars for reasons that have to do with the tricks and down right deceit of Tony George and the complicity of Roger Penske.

I can understand Roger leaving CART because it was managed terribly and he no longer had any influence with its direction, but to bed down with Tony George in the manner he did, erased all of the respect I had for him from the very earliest time of him in racing.

My personal loss is that I don't give a damn anymore about open wheeled racing. I watch ALMS, the Grand Am series (only because my son knows many of the drivers) and occasionally NASCAR,

I've been a technologist all of my career, and spec series, in that the cars are so alike (NASCAR, IRL and Champ Car) no longer interest me.

Both Champ Car and the IRL still don't get the secrets of NASCAR's successes: driver worship and identity. The egos are too big and the money is now so small that teams have to have drivers that bring money with them.

As the engine manufacturers leave the IRL, the character will change dramatically. Even if Penske makes Ilmor's to fill in and KK sells Cosworth's (which to me is a suicidal business decision), and Honda still has Cosworth doing their engines, the manufacturer money flow will stop.
George's "vision" has been screwed more than a naval port cheap hooker, and he knows he can't go backward and still call it a vision.

So, where all this leads is that the IRL 500 will slog on, with mediocre attendance and dwindling exposure (Danica's fire cracker effect is already over), the rest of the IRL "shows" will draw nothing more than flies, and this will remain the condition of open wheeled racing in this country.

I'm walking away reluctantly, but walk I will.

You can't train a stupid forty something year old track owner to be smart. You just can't. And as long as that stupid track owner holds deed to the 500, it is over.

[Rocketdoc]

" Let's see, Pikes Peak or Denver? SJ or Sonoma? Montreal or Watkins Glen? Kentucky or Edmonton?"

The thought of the IRL going to Watkins Glen, where so much road racing history is resident, frankly makes me want to vomit.

To let those oars run there is like letting stock cars run at "The Speedway"....

Oh well.

[cart7]

As far as I'm concerned, they can run the cabs at Indy on Memorial day. Period.

[Ozarkian]

And Rocketdoc said it for me. Current travails of the IRL and severe whiplash being suffered by the uber-gomeratti is very entertaining - hope they painfully continue for some time. Wanted unification for a long time, but certainly don't think Champ Car should lower itself to the Junk Formula. However, don't really care much anymore.

Right now, I watch F1.

[mueber]

By now anyone who believes that any agreement with Boy George is worth the paper it is written on is naive to the point of being dangerous. The only solution to the problems besetting open wheel racing is for Champ Car build a series fans want to watch, sponsors want to sponsor, and teams want to compete in. Any other strategy flies in the face of history and reason.

[RacinM3]

I used to say that CC should push for reunification. I used to say that they should offer Tony a voting seat on the board of any unified series. Enough is enough.

The actions of the CC ownership this past 12 months has shown me that their business plan revolves around success without the Indy 500, and I'm sure that at this point they'd like to have the 500, but it's not going to be on anyone's terms other than their own.

So, now, I say let the CC ownership continue to chart their own course. Attendance is good, and people (read: press) are starting to notice. The groundwork has been laid for a successful series. Who am I to question it?

The fact that IRL teams are floating their own rumors about leaving the league unless they get more Tony-Bucks speaks volumes.

At this point, I'm not even sure they should accept running at the 500 with TG's ownership of the venue/race. Which really means they will never run there again, which just might be OK. Let the 500 fulfill its' apparent destiny as a NASCAR race.

[G.]

By now anyone who believes that any agreement with Boy George is worth the paper it is written on is naive to the point of being dangerous. The only solution to the problems besetting open wheel racing is for Champ Car build a series fans want to watch, sponsors want to sponsor, and teams want to compete in. Any other strategy flies in the face of history and reason.what he said. :thumbup:

[nrc]

Tony George has actively fought against a common formula because he knows that with a common formula Champ car will sink him and his league in very short order.

If George wants to run twin turbo 2.65 liter engines I'm sure Cosworth will sell them to him. But right now Champ car's schedule looks pretty full in May.

[JoeBob]

Multiple divisions will breed nothing but confusion.

The top teams will compete in both "divisions." There's no reason not to. The more time you spend on the track, the better. The "division championships" will be nothing but booby prizes that only wanker efforts would brag about. The overall champ is the only one that matters.

Plus, you run into The PGA Problem - that is, a revolving lineup. How will fans get to know which drivers will be at any given race? Expecting to see Paul Tracy punt Danica Patrick? Maybe they're both competing this weekend. Maybe one is. Maybe neither is. Only the hardcore fans will be able to keep track.

Either you have one series, or you don't. The "common specs" benefit nobody but those who want to talk merger, without actually merging.

[stroker]

Y'know, there's another angle on this...

Without the ability to watch the .1RL flailing around in its death throes (tough to differentiate from it's optimal condition, but nevermind that for the moment) what else would we have to do for comedic value?

:laugh:

[GOFAST1]

Show TG no mercy. Period.


AGREE! Ftg

[skaven]

At this stage of the game (10 years in), the only thing I want in common with the .1RL is mutual animosity. :mad:

FTG and all his boot-licking toadies (my direct and misguided kin excepted). :gomer:

[L1P1]

If TG would go along, I'd be for it in the short term (although I ultimately want the technical competition back) - if - it included a combined Indy event. I've always thought two series were feasible if there was some overlap. Imagine Patrick and Legge meeting on the track only once or twice a year. The build-up would be big. So would Wheldon vs. Bourdais.

But the ultimate result would be predictable. This is why the 25/8 rule came into being. With Indy in both pots, it wouldn't take long for team and track owners to realize which pot had the rational, experienced, business guys doing the stirring.

Without some combined races (or at least one), there's no point to a common formula. They're doing different sorts of racing and Kalkhoven is even suggesting champ cars might come to outperform Formula 1 cars. They actually talked a bit about what they're doing along these lines while TG's camp is basically admitting that they don't know what they can do.

So, yeah, let's share a spec. Said the spider to the fly....