Briscoe takes flight [Archive]

rabbit

09-11-05, 07:41 PM

vidcapped the sportsnet news report....

http://www.mnsi.net/~smicalef/composite.mpg
Wow.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050911/capt.iljr10309112113.irl_chicago_iljr103.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050911/capt.iljr10409112118.irl_chicago_iljr104.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050911/capt.iljr1010609112139.irl_chicago_iljr10106.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050911/capt.iljr1010509112128.irl_chicago_iljr10105.jpg

spinner26

09-11-05, 08:00 PM

Lucky ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, VERY LUCKY! :shakehead

cart7

09-11-05, 08:41 PM

The other forum is reporting Briscoe has 2 broken collarbones, a bruised lung and a concussion. Lucky.

coolhand

09-11-05, 08:55 PM

He is lucky that unlike brack his tub stayed together

TravelGal

09-11-05, 09:15 PM

The other forum is reporting Briscoe has 2 broken collarbones, a bruised lung and a concussion. Lucky.

He's EXTREMELY lucky. When he regains his mental faculties, do you think we could get this guy into our series? He seems to be able to place well (as long as he isn't seen as a Danica-impediment). He's only there temporarily anyway so to have him (dare I say?) jump the fence to our side should presumably be easy. Having a driver actually admit that he'd rather race where the cars are designed for safety would be :thumbup: :thumbup:

pineapple

09-11-05, 09:42 PM

:eek: For his sanity, I don't think Briscoe should watch any of the replays of his gravity-defying feat.

Fortune was smiling on him.

Methanolandbrats

09-11-05, 09:59 PM

Almost another chain link chum bucket.................only a matter of time before they dismember somebody on national TV.

Al Czervik

09-11-05, 10:10 PM

He is lucky that unlike brack his tub stayed together

Bet his sphincter didn't stay together!

I hate oval track pack racing.

Briscoe is one lucky person, get well soon.

RacinM3

09-11-05, 10:20 PM

Almost another chain link chum bucket.................only a matter of time before they dismember somebody on national TV.

Before we go there let's remember that THIS one was a classic open-wheel incident, just as likely to occur in Champ Car, or even F1 for that matter.

As unsafe as I say these cars are, this one saved his life. He's just lucky he went in bottom-side first, instead of top-side.

Chitowncartfreak

09-11-05, 11:18 PM

The other forum is reporting Briscoe has 2 broken collarbones, a bruised lung and a concussion. Lucky.

So in .1RL terms, this means he is ok. :shakehead

Chitowncartfreak

09-11-05, 11:26 PM

Before we go there let's remember that THIS one was a classic open-wheel incident, just as likely to occur in Champ Car, or even F1 for that matter.

As unsafe as I say these cars are, this one saved his life. He's just lucky he went in bottom-side first, instead of top-side.

I agree with you to a certain extent. This is a common open-wheel issue, but other open-wheel series don't run around 1.5 mile high banked ovals on a regular basis in tight packs. The effects of open-wheel contact are magnified under these conditions. Additionally, I'm not convinced that the high downforce nature of .1RL cars isn't contributing to the propensity for these things to get airborne. I will agree with you 100% though that this car thankfully saved his life when it did get into trouble. I just think these cars get into trouble too often.

RacinM3

09-12-05, 12:36 AM

FanofMario

09-12-05, 12:44 AM

BS. A similar accident with more tragic results than this happened at Toronto. RIP Jeff. You can complain about the IRL all you want, but this thing wasn't pack-related. They were in just as much traffic as I see in any other race, one guy turned down on the other, and a car got launched over another's wheel. CLASSIC open wheel incident. To say otherwise is living in a glass house and throwing stones.

:gomer:

Come on, are you going to say that the huge IRL downforce has nothing to do with the tendency for a car to take flight? I have no doubts about a wheel-over incident can cause a open wheel machine to take flight, but it seems like every incident in the IRL has a car taking flight. Sitting in this house, the view through the glass shows the IRL downforce as major factor in having their cars take flight.

Jervis Tetch 1

09-12-05, 01:08 AM

Just thankful Briscoe is not dead. FTG :mad:

If it wasn't for their script, this probably wouldn't have happened. Briscoe would have been out in front and out of this position.

Fio1

09-12-05, 01:50 AM

What a waste of a good young talent to be messing around ovals in those s**** boxes. :shakehead You're lucky man, dude. Now, go back to road racing where you belong.

TedN

09-12-05, 08:25 AM

More pics from PaddockTalk (http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=21267)

Ted

:eek:

rjohnson999

09-12-05, 08:42 AM

The "huge IRL downforce" had nothing to do with this accident. This was about the eternal problem of two open wheel cars making wheel to wheel contact at high speed. Perhaps your misunderstanding of how open wheel downforce works is clouding your judgement. With the exception of the wings themselves, the rest of the aero package relies on proximity to the track, i.e., ground effects. Once the car is no longer within its design range WRT the track the tunnels cease to function.

Once the car assumes a positive angle of attact the entire package produces lift. That is exactly the same for the IRL, ChampCar, F1, GP2, FAtl, F2000, WoO, USAC Midgets, FF1600, FV or any other open wheel car. NASCAR employs roof flaps in an attemp to defeat the lift effect of positive angle of attack generated by the car presenting the rear to the airstream. It even works sometimes, but there is no opportunity to duplicate that with an open wheel car.

:gomer:

Come on, are you going to say that the huge IRL downforce has nothing to do with the tendency for a car to take flight? I have no doubts about a wheel-over incident can cause a open wheel machine to take flight, but it seems like every incident in the IRL has a car taking flight. Sitting in this house, the view through the glass shows the IRL downforce as major factor in having their cars take flight.

nrc

09-12-05, 08:58 AM

jonovision_man

09-12-05, 09:06 AM

The huge downforce becomes huge lift when the nose gets lifted just a few inches and those giant wings start producing lift instead of downforce.

There's no question that IRL cars sail more often and higher than any "classic" open wheel accident. It doesn't take major wheel-to-wheel contact to make it happen either. Crapwagons have gotten airborne in single car accidents, from hitting relatively small pieces of debris, and from wheel-to-wing contact.

I agree they have a problem, but I don't think this particular crash would have been much different for other OW cars.

This picture:
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/images/ptalk/05/chicagoland/pt-briscoe-contact.jpg

It's a good foot off the ground by that point due to driving over Barron's car, that's pretty tough to recover from.

jono

Elmo T

09-12-05, 09:28 AM

I don't even know what to say.

As I tell my kids (and if you are a fan of the show Starved on FX):

IT'S NOT OK.

:shakehead

Hard Driver

09-12-05, 10:04 AM

I think this falls into the racing on high banked ovals with open wheel cars is more dangerous... Could be too dangerous. But "too dangerous" is a relative term. IRL today is less dangerous than CART racing in the 70's when more people were dying.

I personally prefer road racing, which is why I am a champcar and F1 fan. But even road racing, if you run over a wheel, you are going airborne. (as mentioned, happened to Jeff Krosnoff in Toronto in 96)

So I don't think there is much IRL blame here unless you just want to blame high speed oval racing with open wheel cars as more dangerous. Which it is.

DagoFast

09-12-05, 10:28 AM

CART lost no one in the 70's. Of course it's first season was '79 so that tends to make it a pretty safe decade.

NismoZ

09-12-05, 11:52 AM

Thankyou M3 for speaking wisdom rather than emotion. The type of car... The type of racing. It is illogical to expect that a Champcar in a similar accident would have reacted any differently. This was not one of the League's classic "roll of nickels" gearbox into a concrete wall accident. Neither was Renna's. The design of this car did indeed save his life...that and a fortuitous "lucky bounce." I will always believe that had we seen another 180deg. of roll those years ago at Fontana, 99 would still be with us.

pchall

09-12-05, 12:32 PM

The huge downforce becomes huge lift when the nose gets lifted just a few inches and those giant wings start producing lift instead of downforce.

nrc nails it. Once the tunnels stop working the nose and tail wings start acting just as they would on an aircraft flying inverted at the bottom of a Cuban 8 and starting to pull up.

Andrew Longman

09-12-05, 12:44 PM

I was certain he was dead.

I was shocked ABC and esp Goodyear were being so upbeat about how well the cars absorb energy, even before Brisco was out of the car, let alone once they said he was in reasonably good shape (but headed to the hospital).

Goodyear even said it was a good thing they had next week off so Brisco would have time to mend before Watkins Glen.

This was a classic open wheel contact crash. All the more why the proposed design on the next Champcar is smart as the wider sidepods and wings will make it harder to interlock wheels.

I do think though that the high downforce, underpowered spec for the IRL, on highly banked ovals, puts these cars, in general, in too close proximity for too much of the race.

If they think they need that to get the ratings and fans, then do something that lessens the likelihood that wheels will interlock.

As for the size of the wings, their size certainly must create more lift if the angle of attack goes wrong. Has anyone explored the possibility of blowout panels or the like if relative air pressure become too great underneath? So of like roof flaps in NASCAR.

pchall

09-12-05, 12:57 PM

I agree they have a problem, but I don't think this particular crash would have been much different for other OW cars.

This picture:
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/images/ptalk/05/chicagoland/pt-briscoe-contact.jpg

It's a good foot off the ground by that point due to driving over Barron's car, that's pretty tough to recover from.

jono

That is seriously nasty and far beyond the "usual result" of OW contact on ovals. If this keeps happening they are going to need a full cage on their cars. Anyone else remember the STP sponsored March F1 with a full cage that Mario Andretti briefly ran back in, what, '71?

Where's Railbird and his memory and knowledge when I need him? :(

jonovision_man

09-12-05, 01:13 PM

That is seriously nasty and far beyond the "usual result" of OW contact on ovals.

I wouldn't say it's the "usual result", but it looked to me like the hit popped Briscoe's front up a foot or more before the aero effect flipped it. I have a hard time believing a CCWS car would have settled back down from its front being that high without the flip...

The sequence is here:
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=21267

jono

cameraman

09-12-05, 01:15 PM

You did not see cars fly anywhere near as high in CART speedway races because these wings

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/Photos/2002/By400/20021102P_0021.jpg

only had a fraction the area to act like a kite if the car got lifted due to contact.
It was simply a far less likely occurance.

It isn't just the front wing either as Briscoe's right front wing broke off before the car was lifted. It is the entire package, you just did not see cars at CART speedway races flying like that and that was two decades of races.

jonovision_man

09-12-05, 01:17 PM

You did not see cars fly anywhere near as high in CART speedway races because these wings

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/Photos/2002/By400/20021102P_0021.jpg

only had a fraction the area to act like a kite if the car got lifted due to contact.
It was simply a far less likely occurance.

But once the car is popped up like that, it's the underside of the car that's as much of a problem as anything.

Try holding a piece of plywood at that angle in a heavy wind.

jono

Chief

09-12-05, 01:47 PM

You guys are arguing the wrong points....the car is sound but that's one hell of a poor security blanket. The IRL has failed to deal effectively with urgent safety issues for it's ENTIRE existance. That is the root problem and one they "claimed" to be "nimble" about. They know what causes these wrecks but are powerless because it'll destroy the very foundation that the series was created upon. Cost controlled chassis, heavy rear ended cars with huge front wings travelling at 200+mph in close proximity is recipe for disaster. One of these days the impact won't be in an unattended corner and will kill someone.

The irony will be they've always known how to prevent it but they wouldn't. THAT is pure negligence. Kenny Brack's near fatal wreck did nothing to improve the sport. It was the fan/media outrage resulting from IMS/IRL NOT doing anything in response to Tony Renna's fatal flight that they finally added the "body wicker". Guess what? It's not working.

devilmaster

09-12-05, 02:09 PM

wow.... alot of good arguments here....

So i'll throw in my 2 bits....

Do these cars have an aero problem with blow-overs? Absolutely yes. And if any gomers out there don't think so, watch this video...

http://www.mnsi.net/~smicalef/hornishhigh.avi hey! i just noticed - whatever happened to Dana? he's still injured, no? :rolleyes:

Now, that being said, do I think this was more a wheel-over than a blow over incident? Yes. this is what happens when you have open wheel cars running next to each other. You can look back at many incidents where that has happened. Krosnoff for sure, and also for one of the Speraficos basically in the same spot in Toronto during a BDPS or Atlantic race (can't remember which). Jacques Villeneuve a couple years back at Australia (i think). This type of accidents happen.

Now is the IRL to blame for this? Absolutely yes. When the whole basis for your series is the 'close side-by-side' racing, and you are proud of that, then the probability of these types of accidents increases significantly. The boys at 16 and Georgetown play with fire, and they know it. Yesterday, the american openwheel community lucked out again. Nobody in the crowd was hurt. No little 'you watch this race at your peril on the ticket' clause will save openwheel in this country if a car slams into the fencing in front of full stands and kills a good few dozen. Too many ambulance chasing lawyers and too many politicians who would love to make a name for themselves by standing on the backs of the dead racefans like a soapbox.

I look at what happened yesterday, and kind of wonder what would have happened if Bruno's accident happened a little differently. foyt boy could have easily caused the same type of accident that happened yesterday. And it would have went into the fence in front of stands and suites.

oddlycalm

09-12-05, 02:29 PM

The IRL has failed to deal effectively with urgent safety issues for it's ENTIRE existance. Bingo. It's simply the modern version of the pre-CART USAC Trail; driver safety comes well down the list of priorities and the series is run however the management feels like running it.

One question I have is who among us is actually surprised by yet another EARL wreck that looks more like a small plane crash than a racing car accident?

oc

jonovision_man

09-12-05, 02:42 PM

wow.... alot of good arguments here....

So i'll throw in my 2 bits....

Do these cars have an aero problem with blow-overs? Absolutely yes. And if any gomers out there don't think so, watch this video...

http://www.mnsi.net/~smicalef/hornishhigh.avi

Now, that being said, do I think this was more a wheel-over than a blow over incident? Yes. this is what happens when you have open wheel cars running next to each other. You can look back at many incidents where that has happened. Krosnoff for sure, and also for one of the Speraficos basically in the same spot in Toronto during a BDPS or Atlantic race (can't remember which). Jacques Villeneuve a couple years back at Australia (i think). This type of accidents happen.

Now is the IRL to blame for this? Absolutely yes. When the whole basis for your series is the 'close side-by-side' racing, and you are proud of that, then the probability of these types of accidents increases significantly. The boys at 16 and Georgetown play with fire, and they know it. Yesterday, the american openwheel community lucked out again. Nobody in the crowd was hurt. No little 'you watch this race at your peril on the ticket' clause will save openwheel in this country if a car slams into the fencing in front of full stands and kills a good few dozen. Too many ambulance chasing lawyers and too many politicians who would love to make a name for themselves by standing on the backs of the dead racefans like a soapbox.

I look at what happened yesterday, and kind of wonder what would have happened if Bruno's accident happened a little differently. foyt boy could have easily caused the same type of accident that happened yesterday. And it would have went into the fence in front of stands and suites.

That's an interesting perspective. You're right that the conditions where this kind of accident is likely are far more prevalent in an IRL race than CCWS or F1.

How safe does racing need to be to be acceptable?

jono

RacinM3

09-12-05, 02:51 PM

Come on, are you going to say that the huge IRL downforce has nothing to do with the tendency for a car to take flight? I have no doubts about a wheel-over incident can cause a open wheel machine to take flight, but it seems like every incident in the IRL has a car taking flight. Sitting in this house, the view through the glass shows the IRL downforce as major factor in having their cars take flight.

You're arguing a whole different point. Everybody (well, except the IRL apparently) knows the problem with IRL cars is their seeming ability to take flight after running over what normally would be an insignificant piece of debris. I wouldn't call another car's tire insignificant.

Look, you can call me a gomer all you want, but I think my anti-IRL post history here at OC and before at 7G speaks for itself.

A few years ago at Long Beach, sitting in the GS at T9, I watched two Toyota Atlantics make wheel to wheel contact after the turn-in for T9. One launched over the other, flew into the air about 12 feet high, and landed upside-down ON TOP of the wall across the track from the T9 apex. I'd estimate their speed at 85-90 mph when the collision took place.

Krosnoff was killed in much the same way, and his car got enough height to unfortunately clip and kill a corner worker before hitting a light standard right across poor Jeff's cockpit. Again, probably a 100-110 MPH crash.

This crash yesterday was at far higher speed. Stan Fox at Indy a few years ago, in a CART-spec chassis, cleared enough height for the fence to shred his car. I think to argue that Briscoe's car flew higher than a Champ Car would have is a moot point. Both could easily have been in the fence.

devilmaster

09-12-05, 03:02 PM

How safe does racing need to be to be acceptable?

jono

Thats a good question. Its a question I don't have an answer for. And, to be honest, its one that won't be answered by anyone in the racing community. It will be answered by lawyers and lawsuits if a tragic incident occurs. Its a more litigious society we live in. There is nothing that can stop a freak accident from occuring (short of not racing anymore).

But as I see it, and this is one man's opinion - If you know that a wheel to wheel accident can be bad, and you have your series so regulated that all your OW cars run side by side almost all race, you better not play dumb if and when an accident like yesterday happens, and tragically goes into the stands.

When that new CC design drawing came out, someone noticed that the sidepods, and wings were larger than normal, to make it harder for cars to wrap wheels together. Coincidence? I think not. Hell, sprints and modifieds don't hide it, and put a tube bar to try and stop wheel wraps....

In the end, you work to minimize the risks, and you plan for the unlikely event that something bad happens. Any major sport has those plans for when the unthinkable happen - like a team plane going down. Nobody talks about those plans, but they are there. Its all you can do. Hell, I still think the stewards waited waaaay too freakin long to red flag the race. They have replays videos, they easily saw what viewers saw. Yet, it took them over 10 minutes by my count and near 10 laps to stop it. idiots.

I just don't see the IRL leaders taking the safety of the crowd or its competitors seriously. And I see that as a direct result of having an idiot in charge and a bunch of yes-men surrounding him.

RacinM3

09-12-05, 03:07 PM

devilmaster

09-12-05, 03:12 PM

It's not about how safe racing has to be to be acceptable. It's about obvious driver/fan safety issues presenting themselves plain for all to see and doing nothing about them.

It's the difference between an accident, and negligence.

Oh sure Scott, take my 2 posts and about 500 words and condense it down to 1 paragraph and 1 closing statement.....

Wanna be my political speech writer/editor? ;) :D

nrc

09-12-05, 03:13 PM

The fact that the Champ car examples you cite are from a decade ago or more should tell you something. When was the last time a Champ car cleared the wall in a single car accident? When was the last time a Champ car cleared the wall after hitting a piece of debris?

The altitude reached absolutely does matter because the more altitude the car gets the more likely you are to get into the fence with all the associated bad things that can happen from that.

RacinM3

09-12-05, 03:32 PM

Arrrgh...I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall. nrc, you are correct of course, but when the concrete portion of the wall is only 3-4 feet high, whether you're 6 or 18 feet off the ground, you're in the fence. What significant change specifically has occurred in the Champ Car speedway package to lessen today's car's tendency to fly from those of 10 years ago (other than the massive decrease in ovals being run)?

As far as your comment about IRL cars taking flight after running over small debris, I said the same thing in the first paragraph in post #45 above.

I'm only speaking of this specific incident.

cameraman

09-12-05, 03:40 PM

The CART speedway cars of ten years ago did not fly at anywhere near the rate of the current IRL cars. Krosnoff was running a street course configuration at Toronto. Show me the CART cars flying trough the air at superspeedways in the 80's or 90's. Open wheel cars always have been able to be flipped by contact but never have they flipped as often and as high as the current crop of IRL cars do.

They are the worst cars in this respect.

And Greg Moore was going sideways when his car was tripped up by an access road. It is not the same thing.

B3RACER1a

09-12-05, 03:45 PM

The flight problem is as simple as basic aerodynamics. The center of lift (when it goes nose up) is IN FRONT of the center of mass. It's exactly like a tail heavy aircraft.

Those cars have so much mass in the rear end and the noses are so long. The nose gets lifted, air gets under the car and it leans back more because thats the axis the car is going to rotate about.

It should be mandated that EVERY Formula style car should be tested with a lifted nose type accident in a wind tunnel to see how the cars react.

RacinM3

09-12-05, 04:01 PM

Open wheel cars always have been able to be flipped by contact but never have they flipped as often and as high as the current crop of IRL cars do.

I have not seen one post in this thread state something that would contradict your statement, so I'm wondering why you chose to make it.

cameraman

09-12-05, 04:09 PM

BS. A similar accident with more tragic results than this happened at Toronto. RIP Jeff. You can complain about the IRL all you want, but this thing wasn't pack-related. They were in just as much traffic as I see in any other race, one guy turned down on the other, and a car got launched over another's wheel. CLASSIC open wheel incident. To say otherwise is living in a glass house and throwing stones.

It was in response to this statement. Cars getting launched like this is a constant in open wheel but the altitude attained is not. The frequency & severity of the accidents is unique to the IRL cars.

RacinM3

09-12-05, 04:25 PM

I would counter that my comment doesn't speak to the frequency nor severity of the IRL accidents, which we both agree is so great in both respects that to ingore the issue is negligent.

In a nutshell, it says: One OW car + another OW car = someone's going for a ride.

That's it. Not sure how it was interpreted into "The Champ Cars are just as bad as the IRL cars", as that was never the intention.

extramundane

09-12-05, 04:39 PM

All I know is this: let The Danica take flight like that and I bet you'll see a full-scale investigation into IRL car safety. Until then, don't hold your breath.

jonovision_man

09-12-05, 04:54 PM

It's not about how safe racing has to be to be acceptable. It's about obvious driver/fan safety issues presenting themselves plain for all to see and doing nothing about them.

It's the difference between an accident, and negligence.

If we're talking about the flaw in the cars that leads to flips (like Hornish or Mario Andretti at IMS practice) then I agree, that's a problem that should be addressed.

If we're talking about the style of racing that leads to crashes like Briscoe's (ie. wheel-to-wheel oval stuff) then I think it is a question of safety thresholds.

In other words, if you had a redesigned car that was safe but still had the dangers inherent in pack OW racing, is that ok, or too dangerous?

jono

JohnHKart

09-12-05, 05:37 PM

Bet his sphincter didn't stay together!

I hate oval track pack racing.

Briscoe is one lucky person, get well soon.

Me too, that's why I don't watch these useless, boring, wankerfests. Oh and I'm only going to watch the last 20 laps of Talladega as I'm done watching those for hours too.

John

Chitowncartfreak

09-12-05, 06:35 PM

Interesting debate. In this case, I think the racing format contributed more than the downforce issue. The key with the downforce issue is that the IRL needs to make sure these cars don't take off on their own like the Tony Renna accident. Would Briscoe have had the same flight path had he been in a different type of car? - hard to tell, but it is quite possible. I do know that the IRL is playing with fire on these high-banked ovals and as long as they run the majority of events on these types of ovals, the odds suggest that they will continue to have relatively more big accidents. While Champ Car has had some big airborne accidents in the past, fortunately they are few and far between. I think back to the Brack/Fittipaldi contact at MIS in 2000. They touched coming off the corner, the nose of Brack's car started to lift off, but fortunately, it came back down. On big ovals, sometimes you get away with it, sometimes you don't. The IRL format suggests that they will not get away with it as often because they give themselves more opportunities to have wheel-to-wheel contact that results in an airborne car.

NismoZ

09-12-05, 07:25 PM

C-man, if your mention of the Moore accident was a reference to my post I never INTENDED to give an impression "that it was the same thing"...I was only referring to the angle/attitude of the tub at impact. It DOES make a difference.

cameraman

09-12-05, 07:42 PM

Nope, if was mentioned in reference to radio reports I have heard comparing it to Moore.

So far various radio and TV idiots have said that it was:
the same as Moore.
the same as Zanardi.
the same as Senna, I mean wtf? (and no, they were talking about F1 driver Ayrton Senna, they used his first name too).

I have heard a steady stream of garbage from a variety sports radio stations.