View Full Version : Airline bankruptcies
back to the ol' airlines thread...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/13/business/13cnd-air.html?hp&ex=1126670400&en=ec2df4e58a901a3f&ei=5094&partner=homepage
Northwest and Delta are each finishing the details of their bankruptcy cases, people close to both companies said today.
United seems to be getting better due to it's Ch. 11 protections and lack of pensions...
And American is gaining marketshare too...
Bethune, AMR, only ones who haven't been expected to nosedive yet... and I guess we'll see how this USAir/America West merger works out
back to the ol' airlines thread...
Or not. Kind of a different topic so lets not tack it on the end of a 120 post thread.
cameraman
09-13-05, 07:49 PM
The real kick is Delta has cut a ton of costs and done a tremendous amount of work to streamline costs only to have $70/barrel oil stomp their balance sheet.
:shakehead
Bethune
Go Continental!
The real kick is Delta has cut a ton of costs and done a tremendous amount of work to streamline costs only to have $70/barrel oil stomp their balance sheet.
That was the same airline which laughed at Southwest for 'hedging' their fuel costs in a 5 year deal a few years ago. Back then they paid a little more than the airlines. Now it is a brilliant move.
Help repeal the Wright Amendment so that Southwest can fly to states OTHER than Oklahoma, Louisiana, Tennessee, Arkiesaw, and New Mexico out of their HQ at Love Field in Dallas.
And in the process you give American a well-deserved anti-monopolistic swift kick in the balls :)
www.setlovefree.com
TravelGal
09-13-05, 09:07 PM
I admit I couln't make myself read this thoroughly because I get a "deathwatch" briefing every day. In case it didn't say it (I didn't see it), bankruptcy laws are changing dramatically on October 17 so the airlines that are not BK at the moment have been planning for it for several months now. Their stock is all so far down the crapper that BK or nonBK can't possibly affect it much. I think it's more of a pride thing and the fact that many of the general public get spooked when they hear the B word. Of course, as has been noted, UA has been BK for 3 years now and they just got around to providing a plan for exiting.
Moral of the story. Don't supply NUTTIN to an airline or you could lose your shirt.
Other moral, at least according to Peter Greenberg. Burn those frequent flier miles now. Not so sure I agree with that but he earns a lot more than I do so I thought I'd pass it along.
racer2c
09-13-05, 10:53 PM
Time to break out my "Rigid Airships Rule" t-shirt. :)
Let's slow it down and get back to floating around the globe. Up ship! :)
Methanolandbrats
09-13-05, 11:09 PM
Airlines are not a business, they are a utility. They should be nationalized. If you don't believe they are not a business, ask anyone who has ever invested in one.
coolhand
09-14-05, 03:51 AM
Time to break out my "Rigid Airships Rule" t-shirt. :)
Let's slow it down and get back to floating around the globe. Up ship! :)
slightly off-topic DARPA Walrus (http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_Walrus,,00.html) The US government is looking into it to save costs.
TravelGal
09-14-05, 11:36 AM
For those who might be interested. Leads stories (followed by other things like the progress of hurricane Ophelia).
Northwest Airlines board of directors are meeting today to decide on whether they should file for bankruptcy. This information comes from the Air Line Pilots Association. When the news leaked out Northwest shares dropped to an all time low of $1.57. The New York Times says both Northwest and Delta could file as soon as late this afternoon. Mesaba Airlines reported Northwest has defaulted on a payment of $18.7 million that was due on Monday. Mesaba operates as a regional carrier for the airline. The airline also failed to make a $23 million payment for equipment leases due on September 10, 11 and 12 and a payment of $65 million to the pension funds is due tomorrow which it will not be paying. The New York times said the two airlines were putting the finishing touches on their filings and they would both file in the Bankruptcy Court in New York.
If Northwest does go the bankruptcy route its employees will be facing a bleak future for some time to come. They will lose the stock held in trust accounts that was to be sold back to the airline. The stock was given to employees back in the 90's when they took pay cuts to keep the airline afloat. Now the employees face large layoffs, loss of benefits and pensions and more wage cuts. They can look for the airline to follow the route of United and US Airways where the unions hat little or no leverage in contract negotiations.
Northwest started hiring replacement mechanics yesterday but invited union members who are on strike to cross the picket lines and return to work. The strike continues but if the workers decide to go back to work they will only have a right to jobs that are open and the airline wanted to get rid of about 2/3 of the current jobs in order to outsource more work.
Delta issued a statement yesterday concerning its position. "Despite the significant progress Delta has made, we've maintained that due to the high cost of fuel and other factors, bankruptcy remains a possibility. Regardless, we are focused on our transformation efforts, as evidenced by the steps we announced last week, to further strengthen our network and simplify our fleet." Delta shares were down to .78 cents at closing, another all time low. The Delta board is meeting to day so bankruptcy could be announced after the meeting. Delta has told its employees and retirees to expect major pay and benefit reductions.
TravelGal
09-14-05, 11:39 AM
In other, more positive bankruptcy news--my last in the series ;)
America West's board of directors approved the merger of the airline with US Airways with an 95.5% of total voting shares in favour of the merger. Tomorrow the bankruptcy court will begin hearings on US Airways' reorganization plan. If approved a 10 day grace period begins and after that the two airlines will start to merge their fleets, routes and workers. The America West name will disappear and the phones at both airlines are answered US Airways and all flights become US Airways flights. Although the shareholders at America West are happy, the employees are not. Flight attendants, mechanics, pilots, ramp agents and other employees picketed outside the board meeting. The new flight attendants union has already filed for mediation.
Sean O'Gorman
09-14-05, 12:02 PM
In other, more positive bankruptcy news--my last in the series ;)
America West's board of directors approved the merger of the airline with US Airways with an 95.5% of total voting shares in favour of the merger. Tomorrow the bankruptcy court will begin hearings on US Airways' reorganization plan. If approved a 10 day grace period begins and after that the two airlines will start to merge their fleets, routes and workers. The America West name will disappear and the phones at both airlines are answered US Airways and all flights become US Airways flights. Although the shareholders at America West are happy, the employees are not. Flight attendants, mechanics, pilots, ramp agents and other employees picketed outside the board meeting. The new flight attendants union has already filed for mediation.
Shouldn't discussion of America West be in the beer thread?
Wheel-Nut
09-14-05, 12:18 PM
Help repeal the Wright Amendment so that Southwest can fly to states OTHER than Oklahoma, Louisiana, Tennessee, Arkiesaw, and New Mexico out of their HQ at Love Field in Dallas.
And in the process you give American a well-deserved anti-monopolistic swift kick in the balls :)
www.setlovefree.com
Southwest flys to quite a few more states than those you listed.
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/routemap_dyn.html
Sean O'Gorman
09-14-05, 01:27 PM
Southwest flys to quite a few more states than those you listed.
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/routemap_dyn.html
As much as I hate to defend Ank ever, did you click the link he posted?
Wheel-Nut
09-14-05, 02:22 PM
As much as I hate to defend Ank ever, did you click the link he posted?
No I didn't. What does it link to . . . the Brit Rock thread?? :thumdown:
Sean O'Gorman
09-14-05, 02:33 PM
No I didn't. What does it link to . . . the Brit Rock thread?? :thumdown:
It links to a Southwest site trying to drum up support against the Wright Amendment. The Wright Amendment restricts Southwest's flights out of Love Field to the states that Ank listed.
Wheel-Nut
09-14-05, 03:04 PM
It links to a Southwest site trying to drum up support against the Wright Amendment. The Wright Amendment restricts Southwest's flights out of Love Field to the states that Ank listed.
So you fly / drive / walk / hop a freight to Austin and go from there. Kids today have no imagination. :D
TravelGal
09-14-05, 03:07 PM
It links to a Southwest site trying to drum up support against the Wright Amendment. The Wright Amendment restricts Southwest's flights out of Love Field to the states that Ank listed.
You can be sure that American is having a snitty fit over that, as Ank alluded to. Southwest is using some very creative ways to try to get the repeal of the amendment. They are in it for the long haul. No pun intended.
Shouldn't discussion of America West be in the beer thread?
No, their pilots drink mixed drinks.
Southwest flys to quite a few more states than those you listed.
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/routemap_dyn.html
not from Love Field they can't.
and Love Field is all of 10 mins from downtown Dallas, no reason to have to travel all the way out to DFW or AUS...
DFW is a healthy hub, and American is a major airline, if American supplies "a higher level of service that our customers ask for" as their people always say, then letting SW begin offering national low-service from Love shouldn't hurt them seeing as according to AMR, customers want higher level of service than what SW offers and therefore fly American instead.
If Chicago, LA, NYC, Houston, etc have 2 airports, no reason Dallas can't have 2 healthy ones as well. Houston Intercontinental's farther from downtown than Hobby is and far larger, yet Intercontinental's healthy and functioning for Continental Airlines.
AMR intentionally used tax-loopholes to set up shop at Love twice to bankrupt Legend and Braniff, spent years litigating against Braniff before they ever offered a flight.
Delta's already left DFW, I wonder why that is...
AMR == bastiges.
F DFW
F AMR
(sorry peelo :D)
www.setlovefree.com
(this is all about free market principles and anti-socialism/protectionism and taking down The Man, this has nothing to do with the fact that Love's a stone's throw away from my pad :D)
CNN: BREAKING NEWS The nation's third-largest airline, Delta Air Lines, files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
I hope we haven't waited to long to use my wifes frequent flyer miles.
TravelGal
09-14-05, 08:50 PM
Also Northwest a few minutes later.
I wouldn't worry about those miles yet. On the other hand, if you need a new toaster....
oddlycalm
09-15-05, 02:15 PM
I wouldn't worry about those miles yet. On the other hand, if you need a new toaster.... Funny you should mention that TG. I had 372,000 miles that weren't getting used, so I told my adult daughter she should take a trip. Since I didn't give her any restrictions on the use of the mileage, you can probably already guess the rest. Yup, she used up all 372,000 on one trip. :D Kids, doesn't matter how old they get, you give them an inch and they take a couple light years...
oc
eiregosod
09-15-05, 05:56 PM
Funny you should mention that TG. I had 372,000 miles that weren't getting used, so I told my adult daughter she should take a trip. Since I didn't give her any restrictions on the use of the mileage, you can probably already guess the rest. Yup, she used up all 372,000 on one trip. :D Kids, doesn't matter how old they get, you give them an inch and they take a couple light years...
oc
:eek:
TravelGal
09-15-05, 08:25 PM
:eek:
Double that from me. Where did she go? This has GOT to be interesting!
racer2c
09-15-05, 11:35 PM
Narnia
OT: I think the Chronicles of Narnia would blow away Harry Potter on the big screen. Harry Potter movies remind me of made for TV movies with a little bit better CG.
OT: I think the Chronicles of Narnia would blow away Harry Potter on the big screen. Harry Potter movies remind me of made for TV movies with a little bit better CG.
Well you'll find out Dec. 9.
racer2c
09-16-05, 01:33 PM
Well you'll find out Dec. 9.
Really? I'll hit up Google. Now to keep my fingers crossed for some Piers Anthony on the big screen. And Peter Jackson to go back and make The Hobbit.
oddlycalm
09-16-05, 08:48 PM
Double that from me. Where did she go? This has GOT to be interesting! More retched excess than interesting. First class for two from Portland to Madrid. On top of that she had still had to pay out of pocket to get to Lisbon. Since I wasn't planning on using them and the fact that they would have probably disappeared in airline bankruptcy, I'm left with mild amusement. I'd forgotten the prime rule or dealing with offspring, regardless of age; either set limits or suffer accordingly. ;)
oc
TravelGal
09-17-05, 12:40 AM
Ouch. That hurts. Big time. I mean, at least it could have been Bankok or Timbuktu or Dehli. Madrid? Too many choices to get there without blowing all those miles. At least tell her to bring home some of the traditional Portuguese liquor. Beirao. :thumbup:
edit: Or should I say, I hope she *brought* you some (past tense).
you don't need 1st class when flying to europe.... with all the free booze on those flights it makes coach not so bad :D
you don't need 1st class when flying to europe.... with all the free booze on those flights it makes coach not so bad :D
As long as you don't fly on a US carrier. AFAIK you have to pay for your booze there. My brother just flew BA from Toronto to Heathrow and was three sheets to the wind by the time he was at flight level 37 approaching the North Atlantic.
That brings up another point as to why Boeing is superior to Airbus. The 777 has a larger 'bar area' than the Airbus A330/340. This is something that should be seriously considered when choosing an airline for an intercontinental flight. As Ank would surely agree with... :gomer:
I flew Northwest the day they filed for bankruptcy. People were asking the workers stupid questions, but I've been flying United even through their bankruptcy, so I'm used to bankrupt employee morale while flying. :D
Frontier is the best thing we have going for us as no Southwest in Denver. Frontier will get you to Alaska for only 15,000 miles, which is a deal.
Once the seasonal routes open up at the Eagle airport, I'll be flying from home, rather than driving to Denver. Vail subsidizes subsidizes air traffic to encourage tourism. :thumbup:
I'm flying coach to Geneva, Switz. next week. My strategy includes the booze. :D
That brings up another point as to why Boeing is superior to Airbus. The 777 has a larger 'bar area' than the Airbus A330/340. This is something that should be seriously considered when choosing an airline for an intercontinental flight. As Ank would surely agree with... :gomer:
d00d!!! How come noone told me?!?! British Airways 777 it is!! :cool:
Frontier is the best thing we have going for us as no Southwest in Denver. Frontier will get you to Alaska for only 15,000 miles, which is a deal.
Once the seasonal routes open up at the Eagle airport, I'll be flying from home, rather than driving to Denver. Vail subsidizes subsidizes air traffic to encourage tourism. :thumbup:
I'm flying coach to Geneva, Switz. next week. My strategy includes the booze. :D
points 1, 2, 3. all are teh win. :thumbup: especially when considering the absolute deliciousness of fresh alaskan halibut :D
oddlycalm
09-17-05, 02:41 PM
at least it could have been Bankok or Timbuktu or Dehli. Madrid? Too many choices to get there without blowing all those miles. Exactly right, their lack of travel experience really showed. Since they only screwed themselves, I just had a laugh and wrote it off to their inexperience. It's a story that always guarantees a knowing laugh from anyone that has kids.... of any age.
oc
oddlycalm
09-17-05, 03:21 PM
Just to toss another log on the airline fire, is anyone familiar with the serious health risks of long airline flights? Embolisms, deep vein thrombosis, long periods at unsafe blood oxygen levels...? Then there are the issues that revolve around persons with known medical conditions being allowed to board aircraft when they shouldn't as well as people with communicable diseases being in very close proximity to a large number of people.
It's only a matter of time before the aviation medical community and the air carriers themselves will be called upon to significantly increase their activity in dealing directly with medical issues associated with air travel and to direct educational efforts on the flying public. Along with that will likely come safer cabin altitude pressurization and areas for people to literally stretch their legs on long flights.
oc
chop456
09-17-05, 03:38 PM
Well, it seems all the in-flight magazines now have warnings about DVT. Isn't that enough? ;)
TravelGal
09-18-05, 01:24 AM
Just to toss another log on the airline fire, is anyone familiar with the serious health risks of long airline flights? Embolisms, deep vein thrombosis, long periods at unsafe blood oxygen levels...? Then there are the issues that revolve around persons with known medical conditions being allowed to board aircraft when they shouldn't as well as people with communicable diseases being in very close proximity to a large number of people.
oc
The last couple of long-haul flights I took had the DVT warnings with appropriate exercises to help avoid it built right into the informational video. It seems to me that Qantas got off the hook on that one in a lawsuit but it is still taken very seriously. More research is showing that it's not just the "coach class disease." But then, I just saw ON TV how more (you read that right) more stress can reduce a woman's risk of breast cancer. Soooooooooo, let's not discuss "research."
The latest bit about the decreased functioning at lower oxygen levels attracted my attention. The figures they are giving about per cent of impairment seem impossible. Perhaps it's back to the "research."
As for communicable diseases, I'll never forget TravelGuy upchucking for nearly an hour on one flight. It was in the days of less than full planes. Everyone moved several rows away. Even the cabin attendants wouldn't come near him. I felt sorry for the other people on the plane. If it had been communicable (I think it was food poisoning), they ALL would have been down with it by the time they got off.
Doesn't keep me from flying though. It's the only way to get where I want to go! :D
787 carbon fiber fuselage construction will allow for not only higher cabin pressurization but higher humidity levels as well.
w00t Boeing.
eiregosod
09-18-05, 05:09 PM
787 carbon fiber fuselage construction will allow for not only higher cabin pressurization but higher humidity levels as well.
w00t Boeing.
and you wont have to suffer from the early hangover that sets in during trans atlantic/pacific flights where unlimitied booze can be consumed! :D
Northwest is doing so well they've published a pamphlet instructing employees how to save money to help their most valuable assets, their employees:
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2006-08-16-northwest_x.htm?csp=34
Bankrupt Northwest Airlines advised workers to fish in the trash for things they like or take their dates for a walk in the woods in a move to help workers facing the ax to save money.
:laugh: :shakehead
eiregosod
08-17-06, 12:28 PM
:laugh:
chop456
10-17-06, 02:29 AM
Help repeal the Wright Amendment so that Southwest can fly to states OTHER than Oklahoma, Louisiana, Tennessee, Arkiesaw, and New Mexico out of their HQ at Love Field in Dallas.
And in the process you give American a well-deserved anti-monopolistic swift kick in the balls :)
www.setlovefree.com
Congratulations! After 27 long years, the Wright Amendment fight is finally over! Beginning October 19, 2006, Southwest will begin selling one-stop (same plane) and connecting service outside of the Wright Amendment restrictions. And in eight years the Wright Amendment will be completely eliminated.
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