SCCA RunOffs

[Napoleon]

at Mid-Ohio. Anyone going.

It is the best weekend of racing any where, any time. Everyone who can should go. Oh and it is being moved to Kansas next year, so if you live near Mid-Ohio and have been thinking of it, now or never.

[RacinM3]

I've got a a kid who works for me running there this weekend. T2 in a 350Z. Tim Pick. I still can't believe I gave him the whole week off!

[rabbit]

at Mid-Ohio. Anyone going.

It is the best weekend of racing any where, any time. Everyone who can should go. Oh and it is being moved to Kansas next year, so if you live near Mid-Ohio and have been thinking of it, now or never.I'm helping a friend move on Saturday and I have to work on Sunday. :cry:

[mapguy]

Nappy just informed me that a Vee guy I crewed for at the NARRC runoffs at Lime Rock made it to the Runoffs. (Thanks to Nappy for hooking me up with him). Gotta make sure that work (and my amazing Ford Escort) will allow me to go. If so, I will be on it like stink on a monkey.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I've got a a kid who works for me running there this weekend. T2 in a 350Z. Tim Pick. I still can't believe I gave him the whole week off!

I hope my future boss is that generous next year when I want to go to Topeka for Solo II Nationals. Want to hire me?

Anyway, I'll be there for all 23 races.

[RacinM3]

Hey, Sean, go look him up. He's got a skeleton crew....I'm sure he could use the help!

[devilmaster]

Hmmm.... maybe a possibility one day on the weekend or so.....

It'd be good to see Nappy and Sean again, and who knows, finally meet this person i've chatted with all these years known as mapguy.... (who'll probably get lost cause he can't read a map to begin with ;) )

Oh yeah, John - rearrange the plans dude.

[mapguy]

Dammit. Didn't realise that it was this soon. :mad:




finally meet this person i've chatted with all these years known as mapguy.... (who'll probably get lost cause he can't read a map to begin with ;) )



Ironically, Mr Buttpipe. (Or should I say, Peter North's doorman.... ;) ) I am going to be back in Canada visiting my folks for that week.

This really sucks as I want to go to the runoffs badly. Also Doug will probably need someone to clean the grass out of his Vee... :)

[Napoleon]

Here is the web page where you can get live timing and results and such

http://www.scca.com/Event/Event.asp

Mapguy, your boy was 35th of 44 yesterday.

By the way Graham Rahal, Bobby's boy led FA practice by 6/10th of a second. I heard from a birdy that a long time well respected person whose business involves racing at this level, who observed Bobby coming up, is of the opinion that Bobby can only wish that he had the talent that Graham has.

[mueber]

Friday for sure (took the day off) and either Saturday or Sunday.

Nappy: Meet at the eses for a beer at some point?

[devilmaster]

Ironically, Mr Buttpipe. (Or should I say, Peter North's doorman.... ;) ) I am going to be back in Canada visiting my folks for that week.

Ahem. He held the door open for me (and didn't even use his hands! ;) )

Oh well.

It looks like I'm going to slide on down Saturday, trying to convince some people to tag along for the drive..... Everyone going to be hanging out on the patio at the esses?

[Sean O'Gorman]

I really wonder why Mid-Ohio aren't advertising it as the last Mid-Ohio Runoffs ever. I'd imagine they'd pull more people in if they knew they didn't get the chance to see it again.

[Steve99]

Do they advertise it at all?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Yeah, I've seen ads in the Cleveland PD, and on SPEED, and I get a flier for every race.

[devilmaster]

I've got a a kid who works for me running there this weekend. T2 in a 350Z. Tim Pick. I still can't believe I gave him the whole week off!

I can't believe you didn't go with him! :eek:

[devilmaster]

pchall.... calling pchall..... Can you spare a day?

[RacinM3]

I can't believe you didn't go with him!

Haha...someone has to work. Besides, if I'm not going to race, I'd rather not go at all. It's hard to just watch.

[RichK]

Haha...someone has to work. Besides, if I'm not going to race, I'd rather not go at all. It's hard to just watch.

No kidding! :cry:

My friend Colin was 4th in FV practice yesterday. :thumbup:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Haha...someone has to work. Besides, if I'm not going to race, I'd rather not go at all. It's hard to just watch.

I've been getting that same feeling too, I can only imagine what it'll be like once I move up from autocross. Someday...

[Napoleon]

No kidding! :cry:

My friend Colin was 4th in FV practice yesterday. :thumbup:

Colin lead today for a time but ended up something like 8th

[RichK]

Colin lead today for a time but ended up something like 8th

Cool! Thanks for the update, I can't seem to find past session info on the SCCA's site.

[Napoleon]

Cool! Thanks for the update, I can't seem to find past session info on the SCCA's site.

I swear their web site gets less user friendly with each passing year.

Go here

http://www.scca.com/Event/Event.asp?Ref=05-scca-runoffs

Clicking on live timing will take you to anouther page where there is a link, off the bottem of what you see at first on the page :rolleyes: that if you click on takes you to live timing.

Similarly if you click on class homepages, scroll down and it will give you other links to click on to take you to the proper class. Then you click on the event results link, scroll down and click on yet anouther link.

They ought to fire their webmaster.

[Napoleon]

Friday for sure (took the day off) and either Saturday or Sunday.

Nappy: Meet at the eses for a beer at some point?

Maybe - I am playing it by ear and may only go to the F500 race Sat morn and FV Sun morn. I'll know more in a day or 2 and will send you my cell number.

[Napoleon]

Well Graham Rahal is almost 2 seconds under the FA Run Off record and 2.5 ahead of his closest competitor.

He is no Kyle Krisiloff or Arie Jr.

[rabbit]

Well Graham Rahal is almost 2 seconds under the FA Run Off record and 2.5 ahead of his closest competitor.

He is no Kyle Krisiloff or Arie Jr.
Just read in The Dispatch that Graham is going to run a full Atlantics season next year. :thumbup:

[dando]

Just read in The Dispatch that Graham is going to run a full Atlantics season next year. :thumbup:
:cool: Maybe we'll get to see Rahole @ the track and give him an earful. :gomer:

-Kevin

[Napoleon]

Just read in The Dispatch that Graham is going to run a full Atlantics season next year. :thumbup:

Post a link or do a cut and paste to me. It was all the talk at the track on where he goes from here and I would like to share it. Also is that SCCA Atl. or Champcar Atlantics? I guess he got way behind at the start and it took him 5 laps to get into the lead but then he cruised.

As always the event was great. Too bad I could not spend all 3 days there.

Saw old friends, and saw a good friend win his first national championship (my brother gets interviewed as crew chief by the Speed TV crew - look for it on TV).

I even sat behind a Mexican family that flew up from Mexico City to see the races. A map that was set up in the infield where you could stick a pin at the location you are from also indicated attendees from South Korea.

I am going to miss this event from Mid-Ohio, I really am, more so then the loss of Champcar from Mid-Ohio.

:cry:

[rabbit]

Post a link or do a cut and paste to me. It was all the talk at the track on where he goes from here and I would like to share it. Also is that SCCA Atl. or Champcar Atlantics?
I read it in the print edition. You have to register to read it online. Here's the link (http://www.dispatch.com/autos/autos.php?story=dispatch/2005/09/24/20050924-F16-02.html) if you're registered. Tim May wrote and he's pretty reliable. It says a full season of Toyota Atlantics, which May calls a stepping stone to "Indy cars." Take that for what it's worth.

[dando]

Nappy, check your PM.

Rabbit, Tim May is a good source for Rahal news, but for auto racing in general, he's Indycentric. He goes where Rahal blows. :( Besides, his FT gig is Buckeye foosball.

-Kevin

[rabbit]

Rabbit, Tim May is a good source for Rahal news, but for auto racing in general, he's Indycentric. He goes where Rahal blows. :( Besides, his FT gig is Buckeye foosball.

-KevinI've known Tim for several years. He's not technically an "Indycentric." But his main assignment is to cover the local boy, that being of course Booby.

[dando]

I've known Tim for several years. He's not technically an "Indycentric." But his main assignment is to cover the local boy, that being of course Booby.
Ya, during May is the only extensive coverage they have for racing period, which is obviously Indy and Rahole. Hunter usually covers NASCAB, and the rest are covered by wire reports. For the life of me I can't understand why they bother sending May to MIS, etc. to cover Rahole and the EARL. Two years ago they sent him to MIS, Naz, Indy...but they woudn't bother sending a writer to cover the IL All Star game, which featured several Clippers. WTF?!? Of the local scoops, Tim is my favorite by far, and he doesn't do a bad job on the toob either (tho he does have a face for radio). ;)

-Kevin

[Stu]

I really wonder why Mid-Ohio aren't advertising it as the last Mid-Ohio Runoffs ever. I'd imagine they'd pull more people in if they knew they didn't get the chance to see it again.

It's not good for the tracks image to advertise that they are losing races. People who would know enough about the runoffs to care to go, probably know that its the last year midohio is having it anyway.

By the way, what was attendance like for the weekend?

[Napoleon]

By the way, what was attendance like for the weekend?

I went Saturday and Sunday morning and it really did seem pretty good, better then it has been in the last few years (well except last year which I can not really say much about since I went to one event). Maybe it was as good as the best of any other year I have been there. No way Topeka ever comes close to what Mid-Ohio gets.

I guess the area is really upset about loosing it. I have heard for years that it has a bigger impact on the area then any other event at that track by a significant margin.

[RichK]

Topeka

Argh! :mad:

[Napoleon]

Argh! :mad:


Double Urgh!

Do you have any info on how the decision to move it there came about?

[RichK]

Double Urgh!

Do you have any info on how the decision to move it there came about?

Nope. Probably something to do with it being close to SCCA HQ, maybe Kansas gave them a break on taxes or something....whatever, it's a damned shame that the best amateur racing isn't at one of America's beautiful and historic tracks.

They could've chosen one, or rotated through some awesome tracks. Instead, our best racers will be picking their way around a go-kart track in Kansas. :thumdown:

[RacinM3]

Proximity to the new SCCA HQ was the reason given to me by the folks I met through my SWC races.

[FCYTravis]

I guess the area is really upset about loosing it. I have heard for years that it has a bigger impact on the area then any other event at that track by a significant margin.
700 drivers and teams fill up every hotel room and restaurant for a 150-mile radius.

You bet it's got an impact...

[Sean O'Gorman]

Probably not a bad idea to be a stripper in Topeka right now, if you can pull it off. The 1200 autocrossers there the week before probably pay for a whole semester of college, I can only imagine how much more the club racers will add during their week in Kansas. :)

[RichK]

Probably not a bad idea to be a stripper in Topeka right now, if you can pull it off. The 1200 autocrossers there the week before probably pay for a whole semester of college, I can only imagine how much more the club racers will add during their week in Kansas. :)

I'm on my way!!!!! I have a special SpongeBob thong that should work nicely.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Oh yeah, and if you guys want some really interesting reading on the SSB race, check out this thread:

http://sccaforums.com/forums/155256/ShowPost.aspx

Some excerpts:


oh now listen here you little *** stop making excuses for yourself. I'm tired of hearing about you and your lack of professionalism or tact in anything you choose to take part in.


You, cefalo, and costello are all full of ***, and your an embarassment to the sport. You destroyed yours, and hankooks reputation. I'm sure everyone would love to hear about you running on Hoosiers! After this event and all your lies, plus your lack of professionalism in the comp board meeting, I seriously think you should leave the sport. It would be the best thing to happen to SCCA.


I used the system that is in place to check us all and may look like an *** to whomever, but at least we stepped forward and did something instead of running around the paddock whining like bitches!!!

All this over some carpet padding and a rollbar mount point. :shakehead Reminds me of some of the protests made every year at the Solo II Nationals by guys who are sitting in 4th or 5th over things like backwards strut towers.

[Napoleon]

Proximity to the new SCCA HQ was the reason given to me by the folks I met through my SWC races.

I am glad it is all about HQ personal and nothing as quaint as, say, the membership or good racing.

[rjohnson999]

Too bad your personal problem isn't supported by facts. Since you've never seen HPT, what are you basing your comments on? Other Mid-Ohio worshipping malcontents? The word coming back from this year's Runoffs paddock is that the competitors were treated badly and charged for everything. The people I talk to are glad its moving.


Nope. Probably something to do with it being close to SCCA HQ, maybe Kansas gave them a break on taxes or something....whatever, it's a damned shame that the best amateur racing isn't at one of America's beautiful and historic tracks.

They could've chosen one, or rotated through some awesome tracks. Instead, our best racers will be picking their way around a go-kart track in Kansas. :thumdown:

[rjohnson999]

If you're a member of SCCA try asking your Director instead of projecting your own problems onto the situation. SCCA staff had nothing to do with the decision, but you know that, don't you. You just want to complain about Kansas like everyone else who's never been to HPT. Not to mention the complete rebuild of the track and paddock. It's okay, though, you're just continuing the tradition started by those overly enamored of Road Atlanta when the Runoffs were moved to Mid-Ohio.


I am glad it is all about HQ personal and nothing as quaint as, say, the membership or good racing.

[RichK]

Too bad your personal problem isn't supported by facts. Since you've never seen HPT, what are you basing your comments on? Other Mid-Ohio worshipping malcontents? The word coming back from this year's Runoffs paddock is that the competitors were treated badly and charged for everything. The people I talk to are glad its moving.

Ah, it's good to hear the SCCA attitude again! :laugh: I feel like I'm back at tech without the right sticker on the bodywork. :laugh:

My personal problem IS supported by facts. I've talked to people who've raced in Kansas, and based on their comments it's not a track worthy of the Runoffs. I've seen the track layout and looked at pictures, and I think it sucks that the Runoffs are headed there.

If SCCA HQ weren't located in Kansas, I doubt this track would even have been considered.

[rjohnson999]

Then the people you talked to are just as ignorant. As to the relationship between the track and HQ, more ignorance on your part. Ray Irwin, owner of Blackhawk Farms (and a GT1 driver and prep shop,) bought the track and got the city and state to contribute substantial dollars to the development of the facility to bring it up to standards. His bid, along with Mid-Ohio's, was debated by the BoD and voted on by the BoD.

There is one significant advantage to the location from the members perspective; the club won't have to pay for hotels and transportation for the national staff members who work the event.

As to SCCA attitude, it's people with attitudes like yours that get reactions like mine. You don't have facts, but you revel in rumor, innuendo and accusation. I used to think racing was fueled by gasoline. Then I gained wisdom, and you've once again demonstrated the real engine of SCCA activity.


Ah, it's good to hear the SCCA attitude again! :laugh: I feel like I'm back at tech without the right sticker on the bodywork. :laugh:

My personal problem IS supported by facts. I've talked to people who've raced in Kansas, and based on their comments it's not a track worthy of the Runoffs. I've seen the track layout and looked at pictures, and I think it sucks that the Runoffs are headed there.

If SCCA HQ weren't located in Kansas, I doubt this track would even have been considered.

[Napoleon]

Ah, it's good to hear the SCCA attitude again! :laugh: I feel like I'm back at tech without the right sticker on the bodywork. :laugh: .

More like the SCCA steward attitude


My personal problem IS supported by facts. .

I think it would be helpful to review the background of members who have posted in this thread with the SCCA and amateur racing:

RichK- West coast SCCA member and driver with at least one friend who has driven in and been competitive in the last 2 Runoffs.

Racin3M – west coast driver (SCCA member?).

Sean O – SCCA member and CenDiv autocrosser who I have seen at Runoffs with friends and family going back years.

FCYTravis – west coast SCCA member, flagger and crewman

Nappy- 20 year SCCA member, 15 years driving in CenDiv with 2 friends who won runoffs this year (and a bunch of friends, from the mechanic who owns the car repair shop 1 block from my house to the guy who builds my engines who have driven in RunOffs going back 30 years) with a close relative who is also nearly a 20 year member who has driven 15 years in NEDiv, who was also the crew chief in a winning entry this year (watch for him being interviewed on Speed TV later this year). I have gone out drinking with flaggers in the past and know dozens if not into the 100s of grid, T&S, flaggers and tech workers. I know drivers from every corner of this country.

I have a feeling all of our opinions are based on something other then delusions.

Rjohnson- your background is?????


I've talked to people who've raced in Kansas, and based on their comments it's not a track worthy of the Runoffs. I've seen the track layout and looked at pictures, and I think it sucks that the Runoffs are headed there. .

I absolutely agree with you.


If SCCA HQ weren't located in Kansas, I doubt this track would even have been consideredin this thread. .

No it would not.




The word coming back from this year's Runoffs paddock is that the competitors were treated badly and charged for everything. The people I talk to are glad its moving.

Funny I talked to dozens and dozens of drivers and their crew and I heard nothing like that. In fact, funny thing, some of them FROM THE PODIUM OVER THE PA SYSTEM when being interviewed after finishing in the top 3 bemoaned the loss of Mid-Ohio and I heard one thank the ownership for all the years of treating the competitors so good.

By the way, what do you mean “charged them for everything”. I didn’t see one single example of being charged for anything anyone in their right mind would not expect to be charged for, you know, like ice or coffee. Were you actually at the event and if so did you get out from the cocoon like existence of the National Staff in their temporary head quarter trailers?




If you're a member of SCCA try asking your Director instead of projecting your own problems onto the situation. .

Why, I have 2 eyes and ears and know 100s of people in the club who also have their own eyes and ears. They seem to think differently then you think “my director” would.


SCCA staff had nothing to do with the decision, but you know that, don't you. .

Has a facially sillier comment ever been posted on this site? Did God appear in a burning bush and say “though shall go to Topeka in 2006” What next, are you going to tell us that the NFL has nothing to do with where the Super Bowl is played? Taking the RunOffs to Topeka was an SCCA decision.



You just want to complain about Kansas like everyone else who's never been to HPT. .

Except I have talked to several people who have driven that track, and having driven myself (can you say that in terms of SCCA competition) I can appreciate it when they tell me the track in Topeka sux.

By the way Mr. Johnson I find it curious that your registration date is the same as the last post date for another forum member, Peter Olivola who is typically a steward at the RunOffs and spends his day hanging with the SCCA National Staff and not actual competitors.

[Napoleon]

Then the people you talked to are just as ignorant. As to the relationship between the track and HQ, more ignorance on your part. Ray Irwin, owner of Blackhawk Farms (and a GT1 driver and prep shop,) bought the track and got the city and state to contribute substantial dollars to the development of the facility to bring it up to standards. His bid, along with Mid-Ohio's, was debated by the BoD and voted on by the BoD. .

And Irwin does a *****ty job of maintaining Blackhawk, which in my mind has always been a reason to think twice about being involved with a track he owns. Can’t he finally get around to cutting down trees at Blackhawk that are in places where they can easily be hit.


There is one significant advantage to the location from the members perspective; the club won't have to pay for hotels and transportation for the national staff members who work the event. .

Actually I see this as a pander to the HQ staff and something done to make things easier on the SCCA, not as something that benefits the members.


You don't have facts,.

Actually, we are speaking with the facts.

[RichK]

There is one significant advantage to the location from the members perspective; the club won't have to pay for hotels and transportation for the national staff members who work the event.

That's great! :thumbup: The SCCA doesn't have to pay for hotels & transportation! That should make the racing in Kansas superb.


As to SCCA attitude, it's people with attitudes like yours that get reactions like mine. You don't have facts, but you revel in rumor, innuendo and accusation. I used to think racing was fueled by gasoline. Then I gained wisdom, and you've once again demonstrated the real engine of SCCA activity.

:laugh: You need to re-calibrate your personal pop-off valve. I spent a very nice 10 years with the SCCA, and loved every minute of it EXCEPT for when dealing with people with your demeanor. Your posts are a perfect microcosm of the arrogant attitude displayed by the bad apples I've encountered.

Luckily for the SCCA, this attitude comes from a small minority. :thumbup:

[RichK]

More like the SCCA steward attitude


Yeah, I didn't mean to paint such a large swath against the SCCA, just certain members with condescending, arrogant, self-important attitudes. The SCCA is a great club of which I am proud to have been a member. I look forward to being involved again.

[rjohnson999]

Who's Peter Olivola?

The BoD voted to move the Runoffs. That's what makes the comments attacking staff factless.

Why can't you talk to your Director? Afraid he/she might tell you something that would collapse your fantasy world?


More like the SCCA steward attitude
Why, I have 2 eyes and ears and know 100s of people in the club who also have their own eyes and ears. They seem to think differently then you think “my director” would.



Has a facially sillier comment ever been posted on this site? Did God appear in a burning bush and say “though shall go to Topeka in 2006” What next, are you going to tell us that the NFL has nothing to do with where the Super Bowl is played? Taking the RunOffs to Topeka was an SCCA decision.




Except I have talked to several people who have driven that track, and having driven myself (can you say that in terms of SCCA competition) I can appreciate it when they tell me the track in Topeka sux.

By the way Mr. Johnson I find it curious that your registration date is the same as the last post date for another forum member, Peter Olivola who is typically a steward at the RunOffs and spends his day hanging with the SCCA National Staff and not actual competitors.

[Napoleon]

Who's Peter Olivola?

You, the last day he posted 5/30/04, the same day you registered, and amazingly your posting styles and attitude are very similar. On top of it your post suggest you were there but did not mix with "the masses", just like a steward would, which Peter is. Your words "The word coming back from this year's Runoffs paddock" like you were in your airconditioned bunker rented from GE Capital sitting in the inner paddock monitoring what was going on.



Anyone can go back through "both" members post and make up their own minds if style and interest wise if there is a very high likelyhood you are the same person.

by the way, if you are not why not answer this question of mine "Rjohnson- your background is?????"


The BoD voted to move the Runoffs. That's what makes the comments attacking staff factless.

If you read my original post, which is in English, hopefully your native language, I never do that. All I do is suggest that the decision was motivated by things like concern for staff. I never said anything about the staff making the decision, Peter.


Why can't you talk to your Director? Afraid he/she might tell you something that would collapse your fantasy world?

Why, when I can talk to members with first hand knowledge of how Topeka is a third rank track that would not rank in the top 10 road courses in the US with 3rd rank facilities that the owners have agreed to update to a 2nd rate facility. Sorry Peter, your vision of the CCCP-SCCA and the need for us peasants to go to the local party official for "direction" doesn't work. By the way, if you came down out of your airconditioned trailers in the inner paddock and actually talked to real competitors maybe the scales would fall from your eyes on what the membership really thinks.

Your entire attitude is the one big thing that has always crippled the SCCA, condencending and arrogant.

[rjohnson999]

Okay, this is getting funny. You want to crap on the whole structure of the SCCA because, why? No one is doing what you want and you think everyone else is wrong? Did you vote in your Area election? Do you ever talk to your Director? Your RE? Have you ever had a conversation with a Steward that wasn't launched by your accusatory attitude?

HPT will host the Runoffs for the next three years. Get over yourself.


Why, when I can talk to members with first hand knowledge of how Topeka is a third rank track that would not rank in the top 10 road courses in the US with 3rd rank facilities that the owners have agreed to update to a 2nd rate facility. Sorry Peter, your vision of the CCCP-SCCA and the need for us peasants to go to the local party official for "direction" doesn't work. By the way, if you came down out of your airconditioned trailers in the inner paddock and actually talked to real competitors maybe the scales would fall from your eyes on what the membership really thinks.

Your entire attitude is the one big thing that has always crippled the SCCA, condencending and arrogant.

[RacinM3]

Hahaha....this is funny. I know the point was made before, but it's worth making again: If you think the proximity between SCCA HQ and relocation of the Runoffs to Topeka have no relationship, you're dreaming. And if you think HP can hold a candle to Mid-Ohio (or even Road Atlanta), in terms of racetrack, tradition, or history, you're dreaming again. Are you actually trying to say there was some great feature to HP that gave it the edge over M-O? I will say this, though; I'm willing to give HP a shot to see what the track/action will be like before I make my own personal judgement.

Oh, and for Nap...yep, ya gotta be an SCCA member to hold their Pro license! :)

[rjohnson999]

Yes, it's certainly convenient having HPT near walking distance from HQ. The decision to award the congract to HPT over Mid-Ohio was made by the Board of Directors, none of whom live in Topeka.

Why can't you ask your Director? Afraid the answer might burst your conspiracy bubble?

[Methanolandbrats]

And Irwin does a *****ty job of maintaining Blackhawk, which in my mind has always been a reason to think twice about being involved with a track he owns. Can’t he finally get around to cutting down trees at Blackhawk that are in places where they can easily be hit

The entire straight is lined by a woods and they threw a few tires in there, do you feel that is inadequate? Don't you like the enormous oak on the outside of 5? ;)

[Napoleon]

The entire straight is lined by a woods and they threw a few tires in there, do you feel that is inadequate? Don't you like the enormous oak on the outside of 5? ;)

Exactly. And your suppose to feel good that he is the owner of the track they are going to have the RunOffs at (in his defense otherwise he seems to do reasonably well enough in keeping Blackhawk up, considering the cash flow he is likely working with, but still such basic safety issues being ignored for so long makes you wonder).



If you think the proximity between SCCA HQ and relocation of the Runoffs to Topeka have no relationship, you're dreaming. And if you think HP can hold a candle to Mid-Ohio (or even Road Atlanta), in terms of racetrack, tradition, or history, you're dreaming again. Are you actually trying to say there was some great feature to HP that gave it the edge over M-O?

Well put.



Why can't you ask your Director? Afraid the answer might burst your conspiracy bubble?

Ask him what, whether the track is a half ass track when drivers who have driven it can tell me that? Whether the RunOffs should be held at a glorified kart track?

I don't really care how they made the decision, because regardless it is a terrible decision. Laguna, Road Atlanta, Sebring, Sears Point all would have been great decisions. Watkins, Road America, Thunderhill and a few others would have been defendable decisions. Gingerman, Grattan, Beaver Run, Summit Point, and Blackhawk all look like more challanging tracks. Heck, toss Memphis and the road course at RT66 (Chicagoland) in for good measure. Heartland Park is simply not defendable. To hold the biggest road race event of the year in the US at a track like that is a joke. It is not even close to being in the same league as the 4 other tracks that have held it, Road Atlanta, Riverside, Daytona and Mid Ohio.

And by the way, when are you going to answer what your position with the SCCA is, or exactly what Mid Ohio was charging for that was so outragous? I am really interested because you make sweaping generalizations with no back up. The sole complaint I heard, and this was only this year, was a theft probelm that broke out this year (and that could happen anywhere, it is not track specific).

[Napoleon]

On a differant subject Graham Rahal

http://www.scca.com/News/News.asp?Ref=460

[rjohnson999]

Ask him how the decision was made. Ask him what the criteria were for making the decision. Find out that maybe the BoD's criteria and yours don't match and the BoD was elected by the club membership to make such decisions.

Your opinion of the decison is about as valuable as mine. Neither of us is a Director, so it really doesn't matter, does it? We get one vote for our Director every three years. We have a chance to work for a candidate (or against one,) and then we get to lobby our Director and anyone else we know in the club to effect things. At what point do you think complaining ceases to be constructive?

And by the way, what difference does it make where I'm located, or what my involvement is in the club? You're the one sucking your thumb about this. What are you doing to effect change? Surely you don't think posting here means anything, do you?

I would also suggest that anyone who thinks the course at Rt66 compares favorably to HPT has some serious problems with credibility.


Ask him what, whether the track is a half ass track when drivers who have driven it can tell me that? Whether the RunOffs should be held at a glorified kart track?

I don't really care how they made the decision, because regardless it is a terrible decision. Laguna, Road Atlanta, Sebring, Sears Point all would have been great decisions. Watkins, Road America, Thunderhill and a few others would have been defendable decisions. Gingerman, Grattan, Beaver Run, Summit Point, and Blackhawk all look like more challanging tracks. Heck, toss Memphis and the road course at RT66 (Chicagoland) in for good measure. Heartland Park is simply not defendable. To hold the biggest road race event of the year in the US at a track like that is a joke. It is not even close to being in the same league as the 4 other tracks that have held it, Road Atlanta, Riverside, Daytona and Mid Ohio.

And by the way, when are you going to answer what your position with the SCCA is, or exactly what Mid Ohio was charging for that was so outragous? I am really interested because you make sweaping generalizations with no back up. The sole complaint I heard, and this was only this year, was a theft probelm that broke out this year (and that could happen anywhere, it is not track specific).

[Napoleon]

I would also suggest that anyone who thinks the course at Rt66 compares favorably to HPT has some serious problems with credibility.

Bit thing with RT66 is that it actually has grandstands and is in a major metro area, neither of which apply to Heartland Park (which in my opinion the event should be w/i a couple of hours drive of a good sized population to help build interest in the club). Its got some challaging stuff but is nothing special otherwise.

[FCYTravis]

Who cares if it's near a major metro area? The Runoffs are never going to be a big spectator event. They drew maybe 15,000 at Mid-Ohio in good years.

Road racing is a niche sport and club racing is the least spectator-genic part of that niche sport.

There are plenty of grandstands and viewing mounds at Heartland Park Topeka. It's hosted major pro races before (IMSA, Craftsman Trucks, ARCA, ASA) along with an annual NHRA PowerAde drag racing event.

[rjohnson999]

How far is Cleveland from Mid-Ohio? Further than Kansas City is from HPT? Not to mention KC to HPT is almost entirely interstate. Rt 66. My God. Have we sunk to fighting battles using that abomination?


Bit thing with RT66 is that it actually has grandstands and is in a major metro area, neither of which apply to Heartland Park (which in my opinion the event should be w/i a couple of hours drive of a good sized population to help build interest in the club). Its got some challaging stuff but is nothing special otherwise.

[NismoZ]

Wait a minute...are you talking about that Alan Wilson designed 3.56 mi. 24 turn track at Autobahn Country Club? Hardly an abomination, certainly when compared to Topeka. About 4 mi. west of Chicagoland Spdwy., not at the dragstrip. Now THAT would be a great place for the runoffs! Yeah, I remember Peter, black flag steward at RA? Really smart, but serious tunnel-vision. True, runoffs at Topeka for the next 3 years and you know what?...all the best guys will still be running up front anyway! Where do we go next!? :)

[Napoleon]

Who cares if it's near a major metro area? The Runoffs are never going to be a big spectator event. They drew maybe 15,000 at Mid-Ohio in good years.

Road racing is a niche sport and club racing is the least spectator-genic part of that niche sport.
I strongly disagree. Any extended discussion of this really belongs in another thread since this discussion could go on pages, but I think road racing is in large part a niche sport because the "stewards" of it have largely ran road races for the sake of running road races whereas oval track from top to bottom has long been driven by promoters who have a real interest in seeing the fan base increase. The one big shot the SCCA as being the "stewards" of the amateur portion of the sport to prophesize among the none believers is the Runoffs and part of that should be partnering with a track with proven drawing power and a bit of its own fan base in a market (somewhat broadly defined) that has significant population. But the SCCA has always had this bunch of wealthy white guys who like drive fast on the weekend attitude instead of what it really is (at least in my eyes) which is the trustee of the sport charged with getting it out to the broader population and passing it on in better shape then they inherited it to the next generation.

You know what, 15k is not bad and a certain portion of that number liked what they saw and will come back or get involved and they never would have without it. I got involved with the SCCA from going to the Cleveland Grand Prix and seeing an SCCA add in the program and seeing a booth and the workers (I do not recall seeing that for several years now, but there was a kart track booth and one for the roundy rounds, AT A STREET COURSE). If you automatically assume it can not draw it never will because the effort will not be made.

By the way, this little tid-bit makes me think in a small way promoters see it but SCCA club members do not. For a few years the vees were running a few (4 or 5) pro races a year and a few of them ended up at “real” pro race weekends, in particular Sears Point where I understand the management just loved it and wanted them to keep it up and come back every year as a support race. Those races were little more then what you see at the Run-Offs.


How far is Cleveland from Mid-Ohio? Further than Kansas City is from HPT? Not to mention KC to HPT is almost entirely interstate. Rt 66. My God. Have we sunk to fighting battles using that abomination?

Sorry to go nuclear with you by using the RT66 reference. I guess that was a low blow. One thing about Heartland at least they appeared smart enough to avoid using the drag strip (in particular the staging area and where they put the power down) in their road course. (I have an interesting story of my first time at IRP where I went out on my first lap there in the wet and what happened when I came around and entered the drag strip near the end of my first lap)

I will have to look at a map to see how Kansas City stacks up drive wise to Cleveland, but Cleveland area is less then 1 1/2 hours at its closest to less then 2 hours at its farthest reaches. But remember you also get Akron, Columbus and likely Toledo in a 2 hour radius. In that radius you may have around 4 1/2 million people. Take that out to 4 hours and you may have 10 million people (you pick up Indy, Cincy, Detroit, Youngstown, Dayton and a bunch of 50k size towns). Personally I always thought Mid-Ohio was perfect from the standpoint was it situated in the very heart of the part of the US that had always been the hot bed of road racing, the industrial north east and Great Lakes region, and had a large nearby population from which to grow the sport. Also with the loss of Champcar I think the event was playing larger in their calender.

[FCYTravis]

I'm not a huge fan of Heartland Park Topeka. But at least this moves the Runoffs west of the Mississippi for the first time in, what, 40 years?

I think the race should rotate every three years. Road Atlanta, Mid-Ohio, Road America, Heartland Park, Laguna Seca?

The SCCA is not in charge of promoting sports car racing to the masses. For better or for worse, the SCCA is a participant-driven sanctioning body which supports drivers and officials in several forms of motorsports. Road racing isn't even the biggest form it sanctions, although it is the one that draws the most members when you include the official ranks.

The way that Club Racing is structured will never be popular as a spectator sport. Period. It's conflustered, often spread out and boring, extremely drawn-out and conducted on courses that are unfriendly to spectators over two or three-day periods.

Contrast this with Saturday night short track racing on courses near urban areas for a few hours one night a week with four or maybe five classes in that span. And even Saturday night short track racing is hurting in America.

Club Racing is driven by the participants, just as the vast majority of road racing in America always has been. That's not going to change.

[Napoleon]

I think the race should rotate every three years. Road Atlanta, Mid-Ohio, Road America, Heartland Park, Laguna Seca?

I have always been against the idea, but maybe it would work. Personally I would keep Road America out of the mix soley because they have the Sprints which I believe is the only other SCCA road race on the calender that has any kind of serious spectator support, so why "waste" the RunOffs with a group of people who already have a somewhat comparable event. Maybe Sebring could be put in the mix also.

[Sean O'Gorman]

15,000 at Mid-Ohio for the Runoffs? No way. My guess is 8,000 or so. And 7,900 of them are probably competitors, crew, or involved in racing in some capacity beyond spectating. Being in a metro area means nothing.

Look, I love Mid-Ohio and I loved having the Runoffs in my backyard, but I'm looking at the decision from a travel decision. I know from the experience of my peers in the Solo community that Topeka is a moderately long haul for most autocrossers, but it isn't really an enormously long haul for most anyone. You can't say the same thing about Mid-Ohio for club racers.

[Napoleon]

The way that Club Racing is structured will never be popular as a spectator sport. Period. It's conflustered, often spread out and boring, extremely drawn-out and conducted on courses that are unfriendly to spectators over two or three-day periods.

I agree about your average weekend, but there is no reason the RunOffs can't be. 25 races in 3 days with some great races. Its the best bang for your buck in racing.

[rjohnson999]

No, not Autobahn. There were two races, a Regional and a National, run at a course at Rt66 using the drag strip, return roads and drag paddock/staging area. It even went through the suites "tunnel" connecting both grandstand sections. It was all the worst features of every drag strip/road course you've ever seen with a section of barrier lined street course thrown in for good measure.

The motorcycle community had the good sense to refuse to run it. It took SCCA a bit longer.

Autobahn has a lot of potential. I just wonder if Chicago Region can support another track.


Wait a minute...are you talking about that Alan Wilson designed 3.56 mi. 24 turn track at Autobahn Country Club? Hardly an abomination, certainly when compared to Topeka. About 4 mi. west of Chicagoland Spdwy., not at the dragstrip. Now THAT would be a great place for the runoffs! Yeah, I remember Peter, black flag steward at RA? Really smart, but serious tunnel-vision. True, runoffs at Topeka for the next 3 years and you know what?...all the best guys will still be running up front anyway! Where do we go next!? :)

[FCYTravis]

But there just aren't that many road racing fans in America to begin with, Napoleon. Fewer still who will travel to watch mere amateur "Club Racing."

The location of the Runoffs should be determined not by spectator considerations, but by participant considerations. The participant considerations of MO vs. HPT can clearly be debated.

[rjohnson999]

I think the lack of big time things to do around Topeka may balance out the population difference and could even produce a larger crowd, but we'll have to wait to see.

In any event, the idea of "selling" Club Racing in competition with NASCAR/CCWS/IRL/Bush/Truck/etc., not to mention the stick and ball sports, is silly. SCCA just got Pro and Enterprises on stable financial footing. Chasing spectators for Club Racing would be a financial sink hole.


I will have to look at a map to see how Kansas City stacks up drive wise to Cleveland, but Cleveland area is less then 1 1/2 hours at its closest to less then 2 hours at its farthest reaches. But remember you also get Akron, Columbus and likely Toledo in a 2 hour radius. In that radius you may have around 4 1/2 million people. Take that out to 4 hours and you may have 10 million people (you pick up Indy, Cincy, Detroit, Youngstown, Dayton and a bunch of 50k size towns). Personally I always thought Mid-Ohio was perfect from the standpoint was it situated in the very heart of the part of the US that had always been the hot bed of road racing, the industrial north east and Great Lakes region, and had a large nearby population from which to grow the sport. Also with the loss of Champcar I think the event was playing larger in their calender.