View Full Version : Giving up on ovals?
cameraman
09-27-05, 03:59 PM
The new Gordon Kirby article:
In all, it's a very big conundrum, and I'm afraid the only solution come 2007 is to chalk it up to experience and move on, leaving oval racing sadly in the past.
Link to article (http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=9710)
I'm not a big oval fan but I think they should try hard to make a couple work as events. They have to make the cars really match the oval. Any oval they use should require serious lifting if not actual brakes somewhere in the lap.
Only reason I say keep ovals is because I live in Milwaukee. I won't be upset if they totally go bye bye in 2-3 years.
Any oval they use should require serious lifting if not actual brakes somewhere in the lap.
Yep, I watched Tracy hug the white line in qualifying, then turned the TV off to go change the oil on my truck. I didn't watch the race, either.
Andrew Longman
09-27-05, 04:27 PM
I was at New Egypt on Saturday night watching legends Matt Sheppard, Billy Pauch and Jim Horton feather big block modifieds around a 1/3rd mile of dirt. For 100 laps they showed the other competitors and the fans how to find just a bit more traction in the track. As the track changed, so did their lines. Fast on the outside, until is caused your tires to heat up. Quick on the inside but not as quick launching down the straights.
It was far more fun and fascinating than NASCAR, IRL or Champcar ovals because every lap something was changing, even if it wasn't the lead.
I hope champ cars don't leave ovals. The scary fast ovals are part of the sport. I like that when Mansell, Zanardi or Montoya came over they were intimidated by them. That's good.
But I don't like that the way it is now Seebass says you can only win if youi do something stupid. I want to see them win because they were perfect.
With the new chassis they must be able to trim the car to produce almost no down force. Cut boost or detune the engine if you are worried about straightline speed. But at all cost do what you need to do to make the guys (gal) lift and even brake. Combined with wicked fast speeds, that would be a spectacular show. Returning driver skill to the mix is what will actually make it interesting and bring back passing. Think New Hampshire in 93 or abouts.
To tell the truth, I think if CCWS actually put a proper product on the ovals people would flock to it, including NASCAR fans bored to death with their snoozefests.
RaceGrrl
09-27-05, 04:36 PM
Post-race, several of the drivers said they'd like to see the aero package changed. KK has said that he wants to keep some ovals. I don't want to see them go away entirely, but something needs to be done to change things. Hopefully the PTB are listening to the drivers.
devilmaster
09-27-05, 04:40 PM
Seebass says you can only win if youi do something stupid. I want to see them win because they were perfect.
This quote might be the closest Seabass gets to ever admitting fault... ;)
High Sided
09-27-05, 05:26 PM
Bring back Gateway!
racer2c
09-27-05, 05:29 PM
In the ever changing world of American formula car racing I think that the new car requires it be designed with ovals in mind. I'd hate to see them not capitalize on opportunities with a formula that doesn't comply.
Kudos to the Champ Car talent pool for this past Saturday nights race. Two ovals a season and with so many inexperienced oval drivers, one might expect nothing but carnage, but once again Champ Car proves it does everything better then it's American competition. :thumbup:
Bring back Gateway!
I second that.
In the ever changing world of American formula car racing I think that the new car requires it be designed with ovals in mind. I'd hate to see them not capitalize on opportunities with a formula that doesn't comply.
I agree. If ovals need to go away for a while as a matter of practicality, I understand. But I don't buy this "People are too busy to go to the track" argument. NASCAR fans are doing it nearly every weekend.
If Champ Car can grow it's fan base, ovals (and road courses) could become feasible again.
The new Gordon Kirby article:
Link to article (http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=9710)
I'm not a big oval fan but I think they should try hard to make a couple work as events. They have to make the cars really match the oval. Any oval they use should require serious lifting if not actual brakes somewhere in the lap.
Stupid move. Oh well...
Despite what they say in the article, contemporary drivers have never driven high-powered cars with little downforce, and the only way you are going to get lifting and braking is to take downforce away. It would separate the drivers from the ride buyers for sure, but the wailing and gnashing of teeth, and repair bills would be extraordinary.
Steve Johnson says no.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/births/2005/sep/26/519416616.html
"We're not abandoning ovals. The new car that we're coming out with is built for both street races and ovals so you're not going to see us abandon ovals. We think there is room for ovals in Champ Car."
Good news in my book.
I love ovals, but there is a huge problems from running on them
Your married to a large car (assuming they are to continue to run these speeds) due to the fact you have to design safety into the chassie. Large cars dont race well on Street Courses........
Ovals are expensive. From an accident standpoint they will break a small teams budget in one weekend. A road course/street course accident is usually one corner, a gearbox etc. Ovals send you to the sonic check for cracked bulkheads , and parts such as gearbox and engines can be destroyed completely
so, for Champcar to get healthy, I think it best to leave oval racing for the time being and build enough recognition to support oval racing in the future
Ziggy
who has been to TONS of Champcar oval shows
coolhand
09-28-05, 01:55 AM
I was at New Egypt on Saturday night watching legends Matt Sheppard, Billy Pauch and Jim Horton feather big block modifieds around a 1/3rd mile of dirt. For 100 laps they showed the other competitors and the fans how to find just a bit more traction in the track. As the track changed, so did their lines. Fast on the outside, until is caused your tires to heat up. Quick on the inside but not as quick launching down the straights.
It was far more fun and fascinating than NASCAR, IRL or Champcar ovals because every lap something was changing, even if it wasn't the lead.
I hope champ cars don't leave ovals. The scary fast ovals are part of the sport. I like that when Mansell, Zanardi or Montoya came over they were intimidated by them. That's good.
But I don't like that the way it is now Seebass says you can only win if youi do something stupid. I want to see them win because they were perfect.
With the new chassis they must be able to trim the car to produce almost no down force. Cut boost or detune the engine if you are worried about straightline speed. But at all cost do what you need to do to make the guys (gal) lift and even brake. Combined with wicked fast speeds, that would be a spectacular show. Returning driver skill to the mix is what will actually make it interesting and bring back passing. Think New Hampshire in 93 or abouts.
To tell the truth, I think if CCWS actually put a proper product on the ovals people would flock to it, including NASCAR fans bored to death with their snoozefests.
ditto, i think there are some good ovals out there for CC, pheonix, and fontana and michigan had some great races. I agree about them being imtimidating to new drivers, i like that.
formulaben
09-28-05, 03:06 PM
Bring back Gateway!
Bring back Brazil! Now there is an oval I could get into. I would love to watch the crapswagons attempt to negotiate that oval...holy crap, did I just say I'd love to watch crapwagons?! :shakehead
Bring back Brazil! Now there is an oval I could get into. I would love to watch the crapswagons attempt to negotiate that oval...holy crap, did I just say I'd love to watch crapwagons?! :shakehead
I think I read that the Rio oval was torn up. :(
Jervis Tetch 1
09-28-05, 11:41 PM
I enjoy a good oval and I think Champ Car should keep Milwaukee and Vegas and add back St. Louis, Fontana and just one other one. But keep it predominately road racing.
CART T. Katz
09-28-05, 11:47 PM
i like road racing but i like champcar's oval racing too.
make a sched with 6 ovals (milwaukee, phoenix, michigan, cali, vegas, gallatin county) and i'm happy.
Al Czervik
09-28-05, 11:55 PM
Foot to the floor-turn left-pack racing (i.e. EARL) ovals I have no use for. If someone could incorporate the driver, as well as the engineer, into oval racing, I'm all for it.
CARTNUT
09-29-05, 12:20 AM
Bring the oval to the fans!
Corona, California (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.875618,-117.567186&spn=0.016755,0.029232&hl=en)
(O.K. so it's a circle not an oval. If they can make San Jose work, why not Corona? The Fender (guitar) Museum is there.)
'NUT :gomer:
formulaben
09-29-05, 12:31 AM
Bring the oval to the fans!
Corona, California (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.875618,-117.567186&spn=0.016755,0.029232&hl=en)
(O.K. so it's a circle not an oval. If they can make San Jose work, why not Corona? The Fender (guitar) Museum is there.)
'NUT :gomer:
Nice!
Andrew Longman
09-29-05, 09:16 AM
I think I read that the Rio oval was torn up. :(
It was never in great shape and it sure did tear up more than a few cars.
Great run by Moore there. Stunning.
formulaben
09-29-05, 07:38 PM
It was never in great shape and it sure did tear up more than a few cars.
Great run by Moore there. Stunning.
I will NEVER forget the impact by Mark Blundell. I immediately thought of injuries much worse than Rick Mears. How he walked away from that I'll never know...scary stuff.
RARules
09-29-05, 10:05 PM
Bring the oval to the fans!
Corona, California (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.875618,-117.567186&spn=0.016755,0.029232&hl=en)
(O.K. so it's a circle not an oval. If they can make San Jose work, why not Corona? The Fender (guitar) Museum is there.)
'NUT :gomer:
If you want a really big skid pad, check out FermiLab National Accelerator 30 mi West of Chicago:
FermiLab on Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.875618,-117.567186&spn=0.016755,0.029232&hl=en)
manic mechanic
09-29-05, 10:59 PM
I love ovals, but there is a huge problems from running on them
Your married to a large car (assuming they are to continue to run these speeds) due to the fact you have to design safety into the chassie. Large cars dont race well on Street Courses........
Ovals are expensive. From an accident standpoint they will break a small teams budget in one weekend. A road course/street course accident is usually one corner, a gearbox etc. Ovals send you to the sonic check for cracked bulkheads , and parts such as gearbox and engines can be destroyed completely
so, for Champcar to get healthy, I think it best to leave oval racing for the time being and build enough recognition to support oval racing in the future
Ziggy
who has been to TONS of Champcar oval shows
Well said, Zig.
I still believe there are several ovals that should fit in to the Vanderbilt Cup, but cost may prohibit seeing them for a few years.
A cut rate price on speedway wings for 2006 by Lola would be nice to see with the car in its last year, but the amigos need to make the races pay.
You know how badly I would LOVE to see ChampCar back at my home track, but if we have to leave that for the future, it's not like I'm gonna disappear... :thumbup:
manic
formulaben
09-29-05, 11:16 PM
If you want a really big skid pad, check out FermiLab National Accelerator 30 mi West of Chicago:
FermiLab on Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.875618,-117.567186&spn=0.016755,0.029232&hl=en)
You mean this (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.832479,-88.252487&spn=0.046356,0.090835&t=k&hl=en)?
How about this facility NW of Phoenix? (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.747466,-112.790451&spn=0.206923,0.363338&t=h&hl=en)
Or this one SE of Phoenix? (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.050472,-111.935663&spn=0.052147,0.090835&t=h&hl=en) IIRC, it is Toyota's testing facility...but I'm sure someone will correct me. :confused:
formulaben
09-29-05, 11:20 PM
But this one is one of my favorites. (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=35.920518,-115.198817&spn=0.006298,0.011354&t=h&hl=en) And so is this one. (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.261506,-122.741951&spn=0.005474,0.011354&t=h&hl=en)
CARTNUT
09-30-05, 03:39 PM
You mean this (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.832479,-88.252487&spn=0.046356,0.090835&t=k&hl=en)?
How about this facility NW of Phoenix? (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.747466,-112.790451&spn=0.206923,0.363338&t=h&hl=en)
Or this one SE of Phoenix? (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.050472,-111.935663&spn=0.052147,0.090835&t=h&hl=en) IIRC, it is Toyota's testing facility...but I'm sure someone will correct me. :confused:
But this one is one of my favorites. And so is this one.
...and the fans come from where, again?
Originally Posted by manic mechanic
You know how badly I would LOVE to see ChampCar back at my home track, but if we have to leave that for the future, it's not like I'm gonna disappear...
By "home track," do you mean Vegas or Fontucky? :confused:
oddlycalm
09-30-05, 04:22 PM
But this one is one of my favorites. (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=35.920518,-115.198817&spn=0.006298,0.011354&t=h&hl=en) And so is this one. (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.261506,-122.741951&spn=0.005474,0.011354&t=h&hl=en) Hey man, those are kart tracks. Is the first one is Tracy's outside of Las Vegas? The 2nd is Pat's Acres outside of Canby, OR.
oc
formulaben
09-30-05, 10:27 PM
Hey man, those are kart tracks. Is the first one is Tracy's outside of Las Vegas? The 2nd is Pat's Acres outside of Canby, OR.
oc
That's affirmative! Dunno about who owns the Vegas Track now, wasn't Herta was part owner for a while? Sorry guys, just thought I'd have fun with track views from space...sorta like this (http://www.geocities.com/revlimited/spacerace.htm) but different. :rofl:
I love ovals, but there is a huge problems from running on them
Your married to a large car (assuming they are to continue to run these speeds) due to the fact you have to design safety into the chassie. Large cars dont race well on Street Courses........
I agree (and have said that before) ...if you design the car sturdy and with lower hp for ovals, you end up with a car which is overly big and underpowered for road racing.
UNLESS... if you go with some kind of engine rulings which allow high-hp for roads and lower hp for ovals.... which isn't too much of a problem as long as you have one spec engine. BUT... when you start adding more manufacturers, multi hp arrangements becomes harder to do.
Rocketdoc
10-02-05, 07:57 PM
Despite what they say in the article, contemporary drivers have never driven high-powered cars with little downforce, and the only way you are going to get lifting and braking is to take downforce away. It would separate the drivers from the ride buyers for sure, but the wailing and gnashing of teeth, and repair bills would be extraordinary.
Perhaps in the very early part of their testing, but after the fear of Yahweh gets to them, yes, you are going to find the field polarize and show the differences between the drivers and the posers.
Horsepower has grown tremendously through advances in computer technology and analysis, modeling and prototyping), metallurgy and design proficiency.
What commandment says that any race car needs greater "downforce" than to make sure they are stable at high speed?
I've been proposing race cars that have only enough front and rear "winglets" to provide pitch sensitive control, but no "net downforce".
My racing was done many years ago on relatively skinny tires, where :energy conservation" was the tool of the better driver's, and where horsepower would overcome tire traction exiting corners.
Honestly, for the exception of NASCAR (which has its own warts), most top level racing is nothing but large scale slot car racing.
Bring back four wheel drifts, threshold brake modulation, big slicks (the better to slow you down on the straights, my pretty...) and diversity in engines controlled by how much air they can pass through them.
My Dad was a racer, I was, and my son is, and it's only because I probably carry a mutant genetic disposition for racing, that I don't walk away completely.
oddlycalm
10-03-05, 03:23 PM
My Dad was a racer, I was, and my son is, and it's only because I probably carry a mutant genetic disposition for racing, that I don't walk away completely. Amen. It's not been a great period. Sometimes I have no idea why I continue to watch. MotoGP has been the one series I can count on for wheel to wheel racing every week.
We have around 18 months until we get to see if CCWS is able to pull off a lighter more nimble car with slightly more power that works well on ovals as well as tight street courses with less wake turbulence and side pods designed to prevent wheel interlock accidents. If they pull it off they will have accomplished quite a lot and may be able to return some of the excitement to the proceedings. We may see similar ideas beyond CCWS.
GP2 was the first big step any series took towards lower wake turbulence and the cars seemed to be a success other than some initial reliability issues. According to Max, F1's AMD fan survey indicated they need to take a hard look at going in the same direction and we already had CCWS singing the same tune. Seems like a long overdue paradigm shift is coming. The people in charge are finally getting the message that the fans want something more than processions and that more downforce from the underbody and smaller wings is the way to get there. If it does prove to be a trend, I'll welcome it. Seeing drivers being able to go at it hammer and tong again without having the car wash out if they follow too close would be a very good thing.
oc
Rocketdoc
10-06-05, 09:40 PM
"The people in charge are finally getting the message that the fans want something more than processions and that more downforce from the underbody and smaller wings is the way to get there. If it does prove to be a trend, I'll welcome it. Seeing drivers being able to go at it hammer and tong again without having the car wash out if they follow too close would be a very good thing."
I agree with almost everything you're saying except that my point is that there should be NO net downforce, either by trim winglets, or most certainly by "tunnels".
Most of the "destructive following car front end lightness" is caused by air exiting the tunnels.
I want to see driver talent be shown, not tire and downforce capability.
I'd like to see cars "brake" into corners, get balanced through the corner by driver input, and then perhaps get some tire spin coming out of turns.
The CAN-AM power to weight and minimal downforce (or even some net lift) formula separated the big from the small.
Watching 750 horsepower pushing through 16" max width tires would not only be a "hoot", but it could actually appeal to the "semi-dull" non-race fan, or even a NASCAR fan.
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