Ford to Cut 30K?

[racer2c]

It's possible says the Detriot News.

Link (http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/07/news/fortune500/ford_plantclosings/index.htm?cnn=yes)

[Sean O'Gorman]

How ironic, I was just about to bring this up.

From yesterday's Cleveland PD:

Kucinich pledges to help UAW (http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/business/1133861588107040.xml?bxbiz&coll=2)


"This is about our children and grandchildren," he said. "We have to get the word out - 'Buy American.' This is a matter of our allegiance to our own communities, our belief in each other, our commitment to each other."

While Ohio has about 16,000 workers building Honda automobiles, engines and transmissions, Kucinich later said he defined "American" as being made by a union. The UAW has failed in its effort to organize the Honda plants.

It is this kind of xenophobia that makes anti-union and makes me hesitant to ever consider buying an American car. So the Honda employees are bad guys because they aren't union and thus aren't compromising the long-term health of their employers? How dare them!

[TKGAngel]

How ironic, I was just about to bring this up.

From yesterday's Cleveland PD:

Kucinich pledges to help UAW (http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/business/1133861588107040.xml?bxbiz&coll=2)



It is this kind of xenophobia that makes anti-union and makes me hesitant to ever consider buying an American car. So the Honda employees are bad guys because they aren't union and thus aren't compromising the long-term health of their employers? How dare them!

I agree with you, Sean. However, there are so many people out there who do hold the same belief as Rep. Kucinich. The car may be made at the plant in your hometown by John Q. Public who lives in the house on the corner, but because he's not a union man for a US company, we shouldn't buy the car.

If Ford does go through with its plan, the hurt is going to continue for a lot of communities. How many have more than one GM, Ford, Delphi plant in their area?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Parma has a GM plant and Brook Park (where I work) has a Ford plant, right across the street from my job. The local economy in my area is so tied to the auto makers that most people drive a GM or a Ford. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see anyone lose their jobs, but company survival is more important than comfortable employment.

On the other hand, it'd be nice if the DaimlerChrysler Toledo plant would relocate. They have excess inventory and to keep it somewhere they rented out the space at the Toledo Airport that was being used by the SCCA for ProSolos, the national tour, and local autocrosses. :mad:

[indyfan31]

I guess that makes me a fence-sitter. I've never bought anything other than an American car, but I hate unions. :saywhat:

[oddlycalm]

but company survival is more important than comfortable employment. If that was the choice, then maybe so, but it's not. The real contrast to Ford, GM, DCX and Honda isn't union vs non-union. Japanese manufacturing management tends to replace their machinery on a 5-7yr schedule, so they benefit from current technology curve which makes the work less labor intensive. Their US competition replaces their machinery, if ever, only when a new engine program comes along that forces them to. I focus mostly on the engine, steering and tranny plants and I can give you chapter and verse on them going back over 30yrs.

Honda's Landis 3L cam lobe grinders (US made) are all less than 5yrs old while at GM Bay City most are from the 1960's and 1970's and made by companies like Newell and Warner & Swasey that are long out of business, while many others are old Landis S master type rocker table machines that were old when they pulled them out of Livonia in the late 80's. Ford Cleveland's lines are relatively new by US mfg. standards as they were put in during the late 80's and early 90's when the Taurus program took off. Ford Lima is an antique shop though with a bunch of old US and German machines from the 70's and 80's. Look, I don't want to bore you by listing every engine, steering and tranny line at every US plant, because outside of the GM L850 and DCX Kokomo Tranny there hasn't been a significant level of investment in new machinery in these US plants since the early 90's

I would put the mfg. engineers and set-up techs at the GM, Ford and DCX plants up against any in the world, but without any sort of budget to work with they are trying to meet every tightening tolerances with antique equipment that takes months to re-tool, which in turn makes new engine programs impossible without buying all new machinery.

This formula has been failing for the last 50yrs and it's mandated by people that don't understand how to manage companies that actually make things. You shouldn't be able to make the wrong product decisions decade after decade, refuse to invest in your plants, then blame others for your troubles. High priced oil was inevitable and has been for the last 30yrs.

GM did this to a T in the appliance business, which they nearly owned at one time. After WWII they built a nice new Frigidaire plant in Dayton, then never spent another dollar on it. Fast forward 30yrs and the machines were junk, the product was junk, so they closed the plant, sold the name to White, and put a good bit of Dayton out of work. If you run manufacturing like a mining business, the results are predictable, but why the hell would you want to....?????

oc

[TKGAngel]

Parma has a GM plant and Brook Park (where I work) has a Ford plant, right across the street from my job. The local economy in my area is so tied to the auto makers that most people drive a GM or a Ford. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see anyone lose their jobs, but company survival is more important than comfortable employment.

On the other hand, it'd be nice if the DaimlerChrysler Toledo plant would relocate. They have excess inventory and to keep it somewhere they rented out the space at the Toledo Airport that was being used by the SCCA for ProSolos, the national tour, and local autocrosses. :mad:

The immediate B-lo area has a Ford plant, a GM plant, a Delphi plant, a Visteon plant (just announced as closing) and two American Axle plants. According to the local paper, the GM plant is reasonably safe, since its the most productive GM plant in the nation for its type. However, the Delphi plant is all but gone. That's potentially 3,000 people out of work, and the closure of the largest employer in its county.

I agree that people shouldn't lose their jobs because of previous management bumbling, but unfortunately, it looks like cuts are pretty much inevitable, and no amount of government/union/public grumbling is going to stop it.

oc, thank you for your post. Its interesting to hear about what you've described since the media just seems to focus on the end result of cuts, never on the whys of things happening.

[racer2c]

If that was the choice, then maybe so, but it's not. The real contrast to Ford, GM, DCX and Honda isn't union vs non-union. Japanese manufacturing management tends to replace their machinery on a 5-7yr schedule, so they benefit from current technology curve which makes the work less labor intensive. Their US competition replaces their machinery, if ever, only when a new engine program comes along that forces them to. I focus mostly on the engine, steering and tranny plants and I can give you chapter and verse on them going back over 30yrs.

Honda's Landis 3L cam lobe grinders (US made) are all less than 5yrs old while at GM Bay City most are from the 1960's and 1970's and made by companies like Newell and Warner & Swasey that are long out of business, while many others are old Landis S master type rocker table machines that were old when they pulled them out of Livonia in the late 80's. Ford Cleveland's lines are relatively new by US mfg. standards as they were put in during the late 80's and early 90's when the Taurus program took off. Ford Lima is an antique shop though with a bunch of old US and German machines from the 70's and 80's. Look, I don't want to bore you by listing every engine, steering and tranny line at every US plant, because outside of the GM L850 and DCX Kokomo Tranny there hasn't been a significant level of investment in new machinery in these US plants since the early 90's

I would put the mfg. engineers and set-up techs at the GM, Ford and DCX plants up against any in the world, but without any sort of budget to work with they are trying to meet every tightening tolerances with antique equipment that takes months to re-tool, which in turn makes new engine programs impossible without buying all new machinery.

This formula has been failing for the last 50yrs and it's mandated by people that don't understand how to manage companies that actually make things. You shouldn't be able to make the wrong product decisions decade after decade, refuse to invest in your plants, then blame others for your troubles. High priced oil was inevitable and has been for the last 30yrs.

GM did this to a T in the appliance business, which they nearly owned at one time. After WWII they built a nice new Frigidaire plant in Dayton, then never spent another dollar on it. Fast forward 30yrs and the machines were junk, the product was junk, so they closed the plant, sold the name to White, and put a good bit of Dayton out of work. If you run manufacturing like a mining business, the results are predictable, but why the hell would you want to....?????

oc

intersting post oc. Care to talk about GM management in the 90's? I read in many of the car mags at the time that GM was keen on hiring manament from outside industry. The mags would poke fun at the execs that GM hired from Colgate, Nabsico etc to run a car company. I never new the full scoop and would love to read your insight. Thanks.

[oddlycalm]

intersting post oc. Care to talk about GM management in the 90's? I read in many of the car mags at the time that GM was keen on hiring manament from outside industry. The mags would poke fun at the execs that GM hired from Colgate, Nabsico etc to run a car company. I never new the full scoop and would love to read your insight. Thanks. Jack Smith was from Proctor & Gamble and he and his ilk viewed cars as "product" and had no specific understanding or respect for the process or the people. He was there for nearly a decade after a board coup forced out the first car guy that had been CEO in a very long time. They focused on squeezing out cost in the short term at the expense of their vendor base, and there was never a long term plan that addressed where the company needed to be in 5yrs, 10yrs, 20yrs. To be fair they were no worse that what the likes of Roger Smith and other home grown talent, but they were no better either. Plant investments were spotty, and overall they just extended the status quo. Aside from their investment in the L-850 engine program, which was years too late (maybe decades) and competitively emasculated, the machinery and products just got a decade older.

Ford's problems are summed up nicely in their own ads with Bill Ford (a guy that by his own admission spent the first 20yrs of his adult life partying on his trust fund and smoking weed all day) talking about innovation corporate wide, but only mentioning Volvo by name, then they flash to the GT40 that was certainly innovative, but is a now a 40yr old design. Bottom line is if their message is "We used to do interesting things 40yrs and now we've bought Volvo to show us how to build safe cars," there's not much anyone can do to help them. That said, Ford's Focus is miles ahead of anything GM has in that class. GM's forays into small cars, starting with that incredible turd the Vega, have been dismal to be charitable. Saturn has been the only bright spot, barely, and it's never been profitable.

Both these companies operate if this were the 1960's or early 70's, not 2005. The market is three times more competitive than it was in 1990, and these companies never did what was necessary to prepare.

oc

[dando]

FMC to possibly go private? :eek:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-08-24-ford-usat_x.htm

-Kevin

[RacinM3]

It's all about entitlement. Ford, Daimler Chrysler, and especially GM all felt they were entitled to their market share. The union membership felt entitled to their jobs. When management and labor both feel that way, neither can be surprised when it blows up in their face.

[nrc]

It's all about entitlement. Ford, Daimler Chrysler, and especially GM all felt they were entitled to their market share. The union membership felt entitled to their jobs. When management and labor both feel that way, neither can be surprised when it blows up in their face.I think you could argue that about the unions, but the bigger problem with the U.S. companies has been neglecting market share in favor of short term profits. That behavior is largely driven by Wall Street.

[RacinM3]

Right nrc, and the fact that they've neglected market share in such a fashion speaks to the idea that they simply thought it would always be there.

I thought I read somewhere that the basic hybrid drive technology that's all the rage right now was actually developed by a GM subsidiary. That subsidiary was then sold to a Chinese company "in the interest of the GM stock price", who then went on to license the technology to Toyota. Am I correct there? If so, there's a perfect example of what you're talking about.

Please correct me if I'm wrong....nothing's worse than internet forum misinformation.

[oddlycalm]

I thought I read somewhere that the basic hybrid drive technology that's all the rage right now was actually developed by a GM subsidiary. That subsidiary was then sold to a Chinese company "in the interest of the GM stock price", who then went on to license the technology to Toyota. Am I correct there? If so, there's a perfect example of what you're talking about. That's pretty much the gist of it Scott. After years of development GM's Delco-Remy division in Anderson, IN was making electric and hybrid car components better than anything else in the world by the late 90's. Delco Magnaquench was a spin-off division also in Anderson that made the neodymium/iron/boron that made high efficiency electric motors possible. The significance of neodymium/iron/boron is that it has the highest flux density of any magnetic material which in turn means it can generate more power for any given size than a comparable motor utilizing any other material. Even things like windshield wiper motors benefit as they can be made smaller and lighter.

GM owned all the patents and technology, and was actually in the electric car business for a short time due to a California mandate. The sad part is that people in the LA area loved their GM electric cars, which were subsequently taken away from them and shredded.

Magnaquench was sold to the Chinese and Delco Remy was spun off as Delphi and subsequently closed. There's not room here to list all the amazing technology that was lost and the value today is beyond calculation. Not only could GM be leading the hybrid and electric car market, but they could be making a nice profit selling neodymium/iron/boron magnets and magnetic powder to all their competitors. The magnets are made using the same powdered metal process as automatic transmission gears along with a whole range of other products.


oc

[chop456]

That's pretty much the gist of it Scott. After years of development GM's Delco-Remy division in Anderson, IN was making electric and hybrid car components better than anything else in the world by the late 90's. Delco Magnaquench was a spin-off division also in Anderson that made the neodymium/iron/boron that made high efficiency electric motors possible. The significance of neodymium/iron/boron is that it has the highest flux density of any magnetic material which in turn means it can generate more power for any given size than a comparable motor utilizing any other material. Even things like windshield wiper motors benefit as they can be made smaller and lighter.

GM owned all the patents and technology, and was actually in the electric car business for a short time due to a California mandate. The sad part is that people in the LA area loved their GM electric cars, which were subsequently taken away from them and shredded.

Magnaquench was sold to the Chinese and Delco Remy was spun off as Delphi and subsequently closed. There's not room here to list all the amazing technology that was lost and the value today is beyond calculation. Not only could GM be leading the hybrid and electric car market, but they could be making a nice profit selling neodymium/iron/boron magnets and magnetic powder to all their competitors. The magnets are made using the same powdered metal process as automatic transmission gears along with a whole range of other products.


oc

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors announced Tuesday that it intends to become the first major automaker to design and manufacture electric motors for cars in the United States. (http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/26/autos/gm_electric_motors/?hpt=P1)

:gomer:

[WickerBill]

oc, these posts of yours are awesome. Tell us more.

I worked for GM during the Roger Smith "I don't believe our future lies with the automobile" era (this quote was actually posted on bulletin boards where I worked). I was witness to some of the amazing stuff that Magnequench was working on with its magnetics and was told countless times by high level, but ultimately not-in-charge leadership that if GM fixed their quality problem and invested in Magnequench, the future was sterling. They all said that the money coming in from military contracts alone for Magnequench technology could keep GM rolling in money, but there were billions more to be made by using the tech in cars.


So they never fixed the quality problem, until now (and even now is spotty -- the Malibu and the new Buick whatever-it-is are built nicely, but the small cars and trucks are still all 1995ish), and a little piece of me died when I read they sold Magnequench.


I will always root for Ford.

[emjaya]

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors announced Tuesday that it intends to become the first major automaker to design and manufacture electric motors for cars in the United States. (http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/26/autos/gm_electric_motors/?hpt=P1)

:gomer:


GM was selected in August by the U.S. Department of Energy to receive a $105 million grant for the construction of U.S. manufacturing capabilities to produce electric motors and related electric drive components.

[WickerBill]

I'm sure that's not a difficult decision since the government basically runs GM. That's the kind of thing Ford was worried about when they didn't accept bailout money.

[Indy]

Magnaquench was sold to the Chinese and Delco Remy was spun off as Delphi and subsequently closed.


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors announced Tuesday that it intends to become the first major automaker to design and manufacture electric motors for cars in the United States. (http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/26/autos/gm_electric_motors/?hpt=P1)

Well, that is a slap in the face to Anderson, Indiana. The primary competency of Delco Remy was in motors and generators. For decades there was more related engineering competency there than anywhere else in the world. Who were, by the way, heavily utilized when GM developed their (at the time) far advanced electric/hybrid technology which they later stupidly dumped.

Deming is rolling in his grave.

[WickerBill]

Deming is rolling in his grave.

Deming died? I never thought that dude would die. I thought he was an angry robot.

[Indy]

Yeah, he has been dead for about fifteen years. I think he was in his 90's.

And maybe he is not rolling but instead laughing his ass off in his grave, because we are still getting our asses handed to us by Toyota.

[Ankf00]

Japenese industry dude Dr. Deming? yea, early 90's.

[G.]

Deming died? I never thought that dude would die. I thought he was an angry robot.

He's not dead. He's just statistically insignificant w.r.t. our current process.

[Ankf00]

He's just statistically insignificant w.r.t. our current process.

By what method?

[G.]

By what method?

Aimless Methodology.

[WickerBill]

By what method?


Wow. That was fantastic.

[oddlycalm]

Well, that is a slap in the face to Anderson, Indiana. The primary competency of Delco Remy was in motors and generators. For decades there was more related engineering competency there than anywhere else in the world. Who were, by the way, heavily utilized when GM developed their (at the time) far advanced electric/hybrid technology which they later stupidly dumped.

More like a bullet behind the ear than a slap in the face. GM should be made to locate whatever new electric motor facility they open in Anderson. That the day would come when they would have to start over was totally predictable.

oc

[Ankf00]

Wow. That was fantastic.

I wish I could take credit, but I cannot work simply on my own, I must be managed. :gomer:

[Indy]

Excellent quality/leadership hate.

[Napoleon]

On Ford news this morning they announced a $2.7B profit for 09 which I just find amazing.

[extramundane]

On Ford news this morning they announced a $2.7B profit for 09 which I just find amazing.

Not out of the woods yet, though (http://jalopnik.com/5458591/ford-posts-profit-mulally-does-the-happy-dance):


But it's also not entirely indicative of the financial health of the company. The year-end results were buoyed by a $4.7 billion one-time gain the company booked in the second quarter after recapitalizing a chunk of its debt, and benefited from a total of $2.6 billion in other special items for the year.

Ford's also still losing almost $1.5 billion from the automotive side of the business — which means they'll still need to make cuts if they'll want to survive even given an assumption of U.S. auto industry sales predicted at 11.5-12.5 million vehicles.

[Napoleon]

I should have known, core operations were not profitable. Still, in the current environment not bad.

[Napoleon]

Well Ford sales for 1/10 up 25% over 1/09 (GM up 14%, Chrysler down 8% and Toy down almost 16%)

[oddlycalm]

Well Ford sales for 1/10 up 25% over 1/09 (GM up 14%, Chrysler down 8% and Toy down almost 16%)
Seems pretty clear that Ford is going to get a big boost in market share after everything shakes out.

oc

[nrc]

They finally got the other driver's statement from my little run-in last month. His fault, sorry for the delay, blah, blah, blah. :mad:

So today I dropped off the MINI for it's reconstructive surgery and picked up my rental - a Dodge Caliber.

Ok, so it's got four wheels that roll, it's not falling apart at 4k miles, the interior is mostly inoffensive, and it's got lots of space in the boot. Other than that I don't see a single thing worth recommending about this vehicle. The controls are sloppy and numb, the engine is clearly overburdened, it doesn't seem particularly spacious for it's size. I suppose it's not as bad as a mid-90's Taurus rental, but at least you could punish those without fear of rollover.

At least it has satellite radio so I'm able to confirm that I'm not missing anything. I suppose it's ok if your tastes fall neatly into one of their channels but tomorrow I'll slip in a CD full of MP3s that give me 8 hours of my own personal mix. So I don't get it.

Anyway, Chrysler has really earned the position they're in right now. Along with some help from Dr. Z, of course.

[chop456]

If you think that's bad - try a Sebring. The most god-awful POS new car I've ever driven. Considering I worked at a Mitsubishi dealer in high school and drove the Precis/Huyndai Pony on a regular basis, that's bad.

"Like a Caliber, but more expensive and twice as useless".

[Sean Malone]

They finally got the other driver's statement from my little run-in last month. His fault, sorry for the delay, blah, blah, blah. :mad:

So today I dropped off the MINI for it's reconstructive surgery and picked up my rental - a Dodge Caliber.

Ok, so it's got four wheels that roll, it's not falling apart at 4k miles, the interior is mostly inoffensive, and it's got lots of space in the boot. Other than that I don't see a single thing worth recommending about this vehicle. The controls are sloppy and numb, the engine is clearly overburdened, it doesn't seem particularly spacious for it's size. I suppose it's not as bad as a mid-90's Taurus rental, but at least you could punish those without fear of rollover.

At least it has satellite radio so I'm able to confirm that I'm not missing anything. I suppose it's ok if your tastes fall neatly into one of their channels but tomorrow I'll slip in a CD full of MP3s that give me 8 hours of my own personal mix. So I don't get it.

Anyway, Chrysler has really earned the position they're in right now. Along with some help from Dr. Z, of course.

My sister in law rented one last fall when she visited us. The highlights of the car is that it had heated and cooled cup holders and a refrigerator glove box. When that's the highlight of the car...ugh!

I might have mentioned this in another thread, but I rented a Sebring Convertible for a business trip a while back. Horrible, horrible car. And I'm probably the last Mopar nut on the planet.

Marrchione (sp) needs to wipe the slate clean all everything except maybe the 300/Charger. I believe that is the plan, we should start seeing new models this fall.

[WickerBill]

They have to fix the whole package, not just the sheet metal. The Chrysler gearbox is poor, they cannot for the life of them seem to make a suspension system that is quiet, and they haven't really caught on to the laminated glass to quiet the cabins like everyone else has. Drive a new Malibu, for crying out loud, and you're in a $19k car that has less road and air noise than the top of the line 300.

Then, fit and finish... :eek:

[Don Quixote]

They finally got the other driver's statement from my little run-in last month. His fault, sorry for the delay, blah, blah, blah. :mad:

So today I dropped off the MINI for it's reconstructive surgery and picked up my rental - a Dodge Caliber.

Ok, so it's got four wheels that roll, it's not falling apart at 4k miles, the interior is mostly inoffensive, and it's got lots of space in the boot. Other than that I don't see a single thing worth recommending about this vehicle. The controls are sloppy and numb, the engine is clearly overburdened, it doesn't seem particularly spacious for it's size. I suppose it's not as bad as a mid-90's Taurus rental, but at least you could punish those without fear of rollover.

At least it has satellite radio so I'm able to confirm that I'm not missing anything. I suppose it's ok if your tastes fall neatly into one of their channels but tomorrow I'll slip in a CD full of MP3s that give me 8 hours of my own personal mix. So I don't get it.

Anyway, Chrysler has really earned the position they're in right now. Along with some help from Dr. Z, of course.

I have driven a number of rental Chrysler products in the past couple of years and the Caliber is the worst. The Sebring is also bad, underpowered, tinny, poor handling. I was impressed, however, with the Chargers, Magnums and 300s that I drove.

[Sean Malone]

I have driven a number of rental Chrysler products in the past couple of years and the Caliber is the worst. The Sebring is also bad, underpowered, tinny, poor handling. I was impressed, however, with the Chargers, Magnums and 300s that I drove.

The 300C uses a Mercedes five-speed automatic (Mercedes keeps the 6 speed version for itself) , as well as a Mercedes steering system, seat structures, and electronic architecture. It also borrows many suspension components and a basic suspension design from the Mercedes E-class.

[Sean Malone]

They have to fix the whole package, not just the sheet metal. The Chrysler gearbox is poor, they cannot for the life of them seem to make a suspension system that is quiet, and they haven't really caught on to the laminated glass to quiet the cabins like everyone else has. Drive a new Malibu, for crying out loud, and you're in a $19k car that has less road and air noise than the top of the line 300.

Then, fit and finish... :eek:

Word on the street is that marrchione will break off the Dodge truck line and rebrand it simply 'Ram'. Dodge will then expand its passenger car lineup along with its still popular minivan segment. Chrysler will also expand its passenger car lline, presumably with re-badged Lancia's, possibly a few Fiats for both Chrysler/Dodge segments.

A duel clutch automatic tranny is to arrive with the departure of the Mercedes gearbox. And it looks like we are entering another wave of turbos.

[Sean Malone]

Not that anyone is interested :( but here is a link to a summary of marrchione's 5 year plan presentation from Nov of last year. The Chrysler/FIAT powertrain integration is of some interest and some here may find this interesting...

"Jeeps will be sold with diesels in the US because they will be sold with diesels in Europe."

http://www.allpar.com/corporate/chrysler-group/five-year-plan.html