RM's epitaph on Indy

[dando]

Well, @ least it reads like one:

http://speedtv.com/commentary/21302/


Just before Tony George tore a hole in open wheel racing and poisoned Indy's magic formula, he declared: "Indianapolis is missing some American flavor and it rubs me the wrong way that America's premier series has to look overseas."
:saywhat: :laugh: :flame:

A good take on the shadow of itself Indy is today. :(

-Kevin

[NismoZ]

Hmmm, Japanese engines, Italian race cars, road races, Ferrin drivers, ...Hell, even AJ is employing a Nancy Boy, now. Yup, all still going according to plan!

[Andrew Longman]

If there is one benefit of "the split" its that it has given me the opportunity to learn and understand much much more about the politics, economics and cultural biases in the sport.

As a kid I was drawn to the diversity and exotic aspects of the sport. I loved it when the turbines showed up, when Cosworth displaced the Offies, when Penske shot and missed in 95. Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Donahue, Revson and Graham Hill were as exciting to watch for me as Emmo, Sullivan, Mears, Montoya and Castro-Neves. I was impressed by them all.

What has taken me too long to see is the impact of Gomerism on the sport. Indy centric, oval centric, American centric views have done as much to destroy the sport as it has destroyed countless old line American companies.

On the competitive stage a failure to adapt has caused the departure of companies from Bethlehem Steel to AT&T. In the ultra competitive world of auto racing TGs failure to see past the provincial world of midwest dirt tracks and simplistic sense of American/Indy entitlement has left him at the mercy of a Japanese company with a product almost no one cares about.

Sadly (really) it is pretty hopeless, But if giants like ATT can go away, the lowly IMS and their race surely can.

[Rocketdoc]

If there is one benefit of "the split" its that it has given me the opportunity to learn and understand much much more about the politics, economics and cultural biases in the sport.

As a kid I was drawn to the diversity and exotic aspects of the sport. I loved it when the turbines showed up, when Cosworth displaced the Offies, when Penske shot and missed in 95. Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Donahue, Revson and Graham Hill were as exciting to watch for me as Emmo, Sullivan, Mears, Montoya and Castro-Neves. I was impressed by them all.

What has taken me too long to see is the impact of Gomerism on the sport. Indy centric, oval centric, American centric views have done as much to destroy the sport as it has destroyed countless old line American companies.

On the competitive stage a failure to adapt has caused the departure of companies from Bethlehem Steel to AT&T. In the ultra competitive world of auto racing TGs failure to see past the provincial world of midwest dirt tracks and simplistic sense of American/Indy entitlement has left him at the mercy of a Japanese company with a product almost no one cares about.

Sadly (really) it is pretty hopeless, But if giants like ATT can go away, the lowly IMS and their race surely can.



Andrew, excellent post.

[mueber]

Sadly (really) it is pretty hopeless, But if giants like ATT can go away, the lowly IMS and their race surely can.

And the sooner the better for the long-term well-being of open wheel racing.

The sport needs a sanctioning body that transends any one event. To be successful the demise of the Gomerville 500 is absolutely essential to a successful future for the sport.

[formulaben]

Sadly (really) it is pretty hopeless, But if giants like ATT can go away, the lowly IMS and their race surely can.

I liken IMS to AOL: too many morons for it to go out of business, even though in 2005, it probably should not be nearly the company it is. If IMS had to stand on its own 2 feet, it'd be a goner, but with all the Clabber subsidies and lemmings, it's death is painfully prolonged. Bring on 2007!

[Andrew Longman]

I liken IMS to AOL: too many morons for it to go out of business, even though in 2005, it probably should not be nearly the company it is. If IMS had to stand on its own 2 feet, it'd be a goner, but with all the Clabber subsidies and lemmings, it's death is painfully prolonged. Bring on 2007!

Yes bring on 2007. I expect sometime in or around May the annual media buzz around the split combined with hightened angst about getting 33 cars, RP, CG and maybe even Honda and AGR will publicly call on TG to adopt the CCWS spec for 07. They'll threaten to bolt if he doesn't. Why wouldn't they ask for it? What could he say? Then viola they are running both series, cherrypicking an optimum schedule and CC will have effectively co-opted the IRL, rendering TG irrelevant as anything other than a track owner.

[gjc2]

running both series, cherrypicking an optimum schedule

The CCWS principals shouldn't let them cherry pick. They have to choose, Champ Cars or the IRL. If any vestige of the IRL remains TG will cause problems.

George

[formulaben]

I agree. All or nothing. No more sitting on the fence...something the CART guys have been doing for some time, as far as the five hunnert goes.

[Andrew Longman]

I agree. All or nothing. No more sitting on the fence...something the CART guys have been doing for some time, as far as the five hunnert goes.

Agree in principal and spirit, but I think it is purely a near term tactical choice. TG, even with his beloved IMS and ABC contract is nothing without cars to fill the field. Even if he (or Honda) can afford it, he can't fill the field at Indy or any IRL race by himself. He has to create sufficient value for his teams or it makes no economic sense. Love of anything eventually requires paying for dinner ;)

Letting RP and CG and other (CC too) "cherrypick" events in both series creates the tipping point where TG becomes irrelevant. As soon as CC tells these guys that they'll let these guys run, is the moment they will demand TG adopt the CC formula. In that instant he effectively becomes nothing but a track owner with a league people will run in only when it makes sense (and it rarely will)

Look, any event that doesn't entice a IRL team to cross over is also not likely to be sufficiently productive for a CC team either. CC is facing some tough choices about Milwaukee and maybe a few others, but CC's iis ntent anyway to run a series of only the best possible events.

The way to beat TG is to show a better business model for an entire season. CART tried it and got distracted and palyed whore to H/T money. CCWS seems to be getting it right.

[Cam]

The crackhead isn't giving up the pigoda....... Unfortunatly.....

[Fio1]

Hmmm, Japanese engines, Italian race cars, road races, Ferrin drivers, ...Hell, even AJ is employing a Nancy Boy, now. Yup, all still going according to plan!

I wonder if Marco will race under the Italian flag? :laugh:

[Lizzerd]

Yes bring on 2007. I expect sometime in or around May the annual media buzz around the split combined with hightened angst about getting 33 cars, RP, CG and maybe even Honda and AGR will publicly call on TG to adopt the CCWS spec for 07. They'll threaten to bolt if he doesn't. Why wouldn't they ask for it? What could he say? Then viola they are running both series, cherrypicking an optimum schedule and CC will have effectively co-opted the IRL, rendering TG irrelevant as anything other than a track owner.

This is the best proposed scenario I've read. Although I think the chances of it happening is about the same as a space alien giving a speech at the UN promoting world peace. I do believe, though, that if the space alien speaks, that the race in Indy should have two weeks to itself. Three days practice, two to qualify, and race the next Sunday. That would be a bone for the Idiot Inheritor to let him say that "tradition is being preserved" yet again, and be great for OW in general, specifically, the death of EARL!

[Andrew Longman]

This is the best proposed scenario I've read. Although I think the chances of it happening is about the same as a space alien giving a speech at the UN promoting world peace. I do believe, though, that if the space alien speaks, that the race in Indy should have two weeks to itself. Three days practice, two to qualify, and race the next Sunday. That would be a bone for the Idiot Inheritor to let him say that "tradition is being preserved" yet again, and be great for OW in general, specifically, the death of EARL!

What's your position on the existance of alien lifeforms? :D

Really, I'm trying to figure our what is more likely. TG paying for 15+ cars to fill the field? Honda doing it? Chip's already talking about leaving anyway. Penske can't be too far behind with his Grandam and F1 talk. Danica and her sponsors will stale given the current climate. Point is something has got to change, what's more likely? The only thing certain is TG will not do anything smart voluntarily. So what's the most liketly thing to force change. To me you have to look at the teams because they actually have the power.

[NismoZ]

I'm not certain of that. Few teams actually have destiny controlling power. The Speedway ownership had the kind of control I think you are talking about for the longest time and our unhappy last decade is just them trying to get it back. The Championship Auto Racing Teams had it for a long time but they gave in to the manufacturers. Haas probably does in CC along with maybe Forsythe and PKV. Penske has had it before if not now with Ilmor connections and so on, and of course AGR, but they are all at the mercy of a track owner and a manufacturer again. No, the manufacturers had that control for awhile in CC and look at the result. The manufacturer(s) has/had it in The League and look at THAT result. I really think the CC plan is to entice strictly controlled manufacturer involvement by '09-10 because quite frankly any series can benefit greatly from the infusion of cash, advertising and sponsorship that manufacturer competition can bring. Now, after saying all that I really want to see how things shake out starting in '07 with 1 engine, 1 tire and 1 chassis! :D

[Insomniac]

I'm all for the IRL teams running at some Champ Car events, but not Champ Car teams running Indy.

A unified spec would be nice for a day. Until TG realizes everyone would run a mostly Champ Car centric schedule and cherry pick Indy. He'll pull his 25/8, 33/0 rule, or whatever number he comes up with and just cause the same problems. This won't end until he shuts down the IRL and goes back to being a track owner. Even then, he can still kick everyone out again and do the split again. So it really won't be over until someone else owns Indy or Indy is completely meaningless.

[formulaben]

I'm all for the IRL teams running at some Champ Car events, but not Champ Car teams running Indy.

Yeah, I guess I'm for that too, but I'm STILL trying to figure out why Champ Car doesn't have a race on Memorial Day Weekend. WTF?! :saywhat:

[Andrew Longman]

I'm all for the IRL teams running at some Champ Car events, but not Champ Car teams running Indy.

A unified spec would be nice for a day. Until TG realizes everyone would run a mostly Champ Car centric schedule and cherry pick Indy. He'll pull his 25/8, 33/0 rule, or whatever number he comes up with and just cause the same problems. This won't end until he shuts down the IRL and goes back to being a track owner. Even then, he can still kick everyone out again and do the split again. So it really won't be over until someone else owns Indy or Indy is completely meaningless.

My hope (and perhaps dilusional growing expectation) is that teams are destined to demand a common spec and as soon as he adopts a common spec the IRL becomes irrelevant and there is no reason for any team to run it (except the 500 and 2-3 other events) I expect that's why TG rejected the notion last year when Mario et al were pushing it.

So long as you need a crapwagon to run there he maintains the control over the teams wanting to run the 500. But it works both ways. He has to have teams and if they have an alternative its likely to be better than running a full IRL season. And if he wants to pull a 25/8 deal he can try but again with a viable CCWS alternative, and not a lot of cheap old chassis around to fill the field, teams could more easily tell him to pound sand than they did in 96

Oh, and there are not a lot of old crapwagon chassis either. Without the small teams to sell them to and with costs out of alignment with income, the bigger teams are holding on to them. Bottom line is its getting harder on multiple fronts to fill the IRL field

[Insomniac]

My hope (and perhaps dilusional growing expectation) is that teams are destined to demand a common spec and as soon as he adopts a common spec the IRL becomes irrelevant and there is no reason for any team to run it (except the 500 and 2-3 other events) I expect that's why TG rejected the notion last year when Mario et al were pushing it.

So long as you need a crapwagon to run there he maintains the control over the teams wanting to run the 500. But it works both ways. He has to have teams and if they have an alternative its likely to be better than running a full IRL season. And if he wants to pull a 25/8 deal he can try but again with a viable CCWS alternative, and not a lot of cheap old chassis around to fill the field, teams could more easily tell him to pound sand than they did in 96

Oh, and there are not a lot of old crapwagon chassis either. Without the small teams to sell them to and with costs out of alignment with income, the bigger teams are holding on to them. Bottom line is its getting harder on multiple fronts to fill the IRL field

Maybe he won't be able to do it as soon as he'd like (that assumes he cares about Indy). Unless he really decides he just wants to own Indy and not try and control OWR, a new split is just inevitable. He has the track and money to do this forever.

[Rocketdoc]

"...Penske can't be too far behind with his Grandam and F1 talk..."


Missed that one, what's up with the F1 talk?

[Andrew Longman]

"...Penske can't be too far behind with his Grandam and F1 talk..."


Missed that one, what's up with the F1 talk?


http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9520

Probably means nothing except that there is talk of it when before there was none

My bad on Grandam. I meant ALMS with Porsche.

[NismoZ]

Paul Ray at Ilmor says a single series is crucial and something he'd like to see from an engine manufacturer standpoint. Of course he's willing to go along with HPD because Ilmor is paid well and happy to be independant from Daimler-Chrysler but he's ready if another manufacturer steps in or to badge an engine as an Ilmor if need be. He anxiously awaits the HRL's '07 engine spec but blames the continuing OW mess directly on KK anf FTG. I can see a conspiracy (and would likely support it) involving a certain influential part owner of Ilmor and the owners of Cosworth to gather some of that "controlling power" mentioned here earlier. When the TEAMS are also MANUFACTURERS...does that make things more complicated and dangerous, or would they be able to control themselves enough, to the benefit of open-wheel racing?

[fourrunner]

No Offense to Paul Ray, but when he blames BOTH Kevin Kalkoven, and Tony George for the continued "Mess" in open wheel, he is Being "Lazy", and "Wishy Washy"

His stance is that Kevin should just "Cave" to Tony ... Paul Ray should be a Man , and choose a side ... instead he "plays the middle" which is just as big a problem as his accusations ... Look in the mirror Paul !

( well after typing this I actually meant Offense to Paul Ray ) !

[NismoZ]

:D I know. Most of the unity theories are coming from the other side these days and several common themes permeate. Cosworth should build 3.0 "Indy engines" (did that)...ChampCar should "bring in" 8-10 of their best races. (as what, reparations?) About 60% of the races should be ovals. ( :shakehead ) Oooo, maybe we can use "your" new Panoz chassis, but dump the Asian race ideas, including Australia. (So, trade 200,000+ fans for 5,000 or so at...fill in the blank?)Their main concession is, as always, the "gift of Indy."