What was your odyssey to CC/away from the IRL

[Andrew Longman]

I was 8 when Mario won the 500. It was the first race I can remember and followed him ever since. It made the 500 the biggest race of my year. I quickly found and loved NHRA which I felt shared something with Indy in terms of combining brains, brawn and courage to do something completely nuts. I found NASCAR and that was fun and honest, but always in my mind just what you would do if you didn't have the talent and money to do Indy. Below that were local dirt tracks like Flemington, just because you couldn't go to Pocono and Trenton every week to watch the real thing. And I watched F1, CanAm and F5000 when it made TV and loved Penske's and McLaren's efforts. I cried when Bruce M, Mark D, and Revson died.

When CART was formed I didn't understand it (not that I disagreed, I just didn't understand it). I was worried for a time what that meant for the 500 and the sport, but soon came to feel it meant nothing. The sport was growing and more events got on TV. I got a little money and independence and so I ventured to MIS and Nazareth for races. I grew up mostly watching ovals, because that's what mostly made the TV, but with better TV coverage came to appreciate and even prefer a good (not bad) street course (and MO, RA and LS).

When TG announce the IRL I was initially supportive because TG and the 500 must know something I did not. I watch the Disney World race with interest but left with confusion. The cars were the same but it left me flat. Watching the dentist qualify for the 500 just felt wrong. The more I understood that Jimmy Vassar and Michael Andretti would gladly be there if they could the more it made me feel it was wrong.

I actually began to watch more CART post split, simply because my curiousity about why my favorite sport was getting messed up got me to learn more about it.

I continued to hold some interest in the IRL and hope it could come together with CART. Then the original engine spec sounded like 500 miles of butt burp. Then the first, then the second chassis spec convinced me that they just couldn't make a car that didn't hurt my eyes. Even some F1 team couldn't make me say that a racecar was actually ugly.

Then I found the internet and places like 7G and I began to really understand the landscape of racing fans and the politics. Some great posters here and elsewhere, fans and insiders, educated me on just what's going on and the economics of the sport. More than anything else that has been key. I had never understood how teams could possibly fund the cost. As a business person, this is actually as much interest as anything else.

Then the threat of it going away (and a little more disposable income) got me off my duff and off to Cleveland, Toronto, RA, MIS, and more. I'm still dreaming on Surfers, and I think I actually may work that into a business trip this year. :D Edmonton and RA and Toronto or Montreal are more likely.

As much as I am saddened and disgusted by what has happened to the 500, I feel I have much more appreciation and fondness for CCWS racing today for 16 races a year than I did for one 500 40 years ago.

[oddlycalm]

By the mid-70's the USAC Trail was an unholy mess. The cars had outgrown the pathetic safety measures and it was all about making money for the promoters while those risking life and wallet didn't have a voice nor were they getting much compensation for their trouble. CART was born as a result of the failed leadership of the IMS and USAC. The rest is history.

I never spent a minute considering the IRL as anything more than an attempt by the IMS management to steal what CART had built and bring back the bad old days, and that's exactly what has happened. Lesser cars, lesser events, and lesser safety all fronted by lies and puffery.

CART was it's own worst enemy during this same period, and the owners tripped all over themselves to line their pockets with cash at the expense of shareholders fans. Most defected to the IRL, which they richly deserve. None of them deserve the loyalty the fans showed them, and they will never get that back again IMO. Once a whore....

CCWS has shown that they respect the fans and listen. The ethics are there and so are the business smarts. The rebuilding of Atlantics, the 2007 car spec and putting RA back on the schedule are all strong positive signs.

oc

[Cam]

:thumbup:

[Sean O'Gorman]

I remember hearing about the IRL in late '95, and I wasn't happy because CART at the time was awesome to me. Anyway, '96 rolled around and alot of the drivers seemed familiar from IMSA and such, so I started watching and liked it. I went to the US 500 anyway.

Come '97 I thought the new cars sucked, and started bashing the IRL. A year later, I was intrigued by the number of cars running at Indy (I'd never gotten to really experience watching bumping and such) and became an IRL fan again.

Around late 2002/early 2003 I stopped supporting IRL because they ruined CART as I enjoyed it, but without actually improving the state of the sport. If the addition of T&H would've led to IRL becoming more like CART of the 90s, I would've been a full blown IRL fan.

At this point, I very much dislike the IRL, and while it isn't where I'd prefer them to be, I approve of the overall health of Champ Car right now. I never expected to be saying that six months ago.

[Spicoli]

I'm pretty certain that the IRL sucks now, sucked then, and will forever suck.

It's the answer to a question nobody asked, the solution to a problem that never existed, the powerplay by a complete fool who hundreds of miilions of dollars and countless efforts, has still not proven to attract any following outside of a lonely retired snowmobile salesman, a pudgy cable installer who talks like Sylvester the Cat, and some parts department assistant manager named Bruce.

Like it or not, CCWS is on the mend. Its what the people want/wanted, and its not going to die.

It wil take some time, but CCWS has the focus.

And when ___king Tony Boo-Boo dicked over PT in 02 at Indy, we saw the true colors of said leader.

[dando]

And when ___king Tony Boo-Boo dicked over PT in 02 at Indy, we saw the true colors of said leader.
I think most of saw through 'king Tony's new clothes long before that fiasco. All the '02 debacle proved was that there is simply no limit to the depth FTG will go to save his vision(s), or to get what he wants.

As to the original question, I was never an IRL follower. < '95 I was a casual race fan/observer, mainly following Indy. I watched Indy in the 70s and early 80s, but I came to follow Indy even more closely after Rahole's win in '86. > '95 I became a diehard follower of C^RT. I been solely a C^RT/CCWS backer since the first US 500, and I've never looked back. Outside of the 3 years of C^RT dominance @ Indy from '99-'02, I could care less Indy since '95. Indy is dead to me, and I can see no way it can ever return to what it was unless the format changes radically. Even then, I'll never go back as long as FTG has anything to do with IMS.

-Kevin

[High Sided]

And when ___king Tony Boo-Boo dicked over PT in 02 at Indy, we saw the true colors of said leader.


:thumbup: :thumbup:

[manic mechanic]

And when ___king Tony Boo-Boo dicked over PT in 02 at Indy, we saw the true colors of said leader.


It took you that long, eh Spicoli? :p

manic

[Spicoli]

It took you that long, eh Spiccoli? :p

manic


I been hatin for long before that. ;)

I just think that was the point where I realized this jacktard was not even worth dealing with - ever.

Its also funny how all those guys at TKG/AGR drank the koolaid so damn quick when the Homoco $$$ was on the line. Its well known how well they are paid, how much "special treatment" they get/got from Homoco, and in every script they get the lead. Well duh, what choice did they have?

That was a sad day in motorsports - realizing the deadly combination of Yen & Fool was upon us.

This will not last, I know. But that day was just the "no turning back ever" point for me.

I actually got a kick out of Vision (TM) Versions 2.1 to 7.92b - the gomer era. All them smushed up cars and fire and flipping and wankers - it was quite comical.

Todays Danicar/IndyCART/CrappenWaggen/Whatever managed a trick I never thought possible: combine the absolute WORST of what was CART, the WORST of what was EARL, and cheapen it so bad that even Cheeber can't do it, and well - ___king Tony Boo-Boo amazes the masses again.








btw - spicoli only gots ONE c. :gomer:

[Lizzerd]

I'll try to deflect another thread hijack attempt by Spicoli and try to stay on topic.

This is long, but you asked for it...

I discovered racing by watching a couple of films my dad took from his seat somewhere in the upper deck at the Indy 500 sometime in the late '50's when I was very young. I don't know what kind of camera it was, but the film on the reel was about a half inch wide, I guess. Whenever we would visit Grandma and Grandpa, I'd beg to get the projector and screen out and watch the film of the race. Of course, if we did that, we'd have to see the one of me kissing my cousin (still a real babe, for a 50 year old) when we were both about three years old. I think Dad was comped the tickets somehow.

I first saw a Champ Car (yes, that's what they were called) in 1965 when I was eight years old on pole day sitting on a blanket with the family just before turn three at IMS. I told my Dad that I liked the green car that made the funny noise when it went into the corner. He said to keep an eye on that guy. It was Jim Clark, who immediately became my first hero. It was the only time that Dad took the family to the track. He wasn't and isn't really a race fan, but I was hooked. I cried two years later when I heard on the radio that Jim Clark had died.

I started going to the race on my own in '73 when I was 16. By then my family lived 50 miles away. I can't believe my parents let me do it (would you?). I didn't always drive, but always ended up in the Snake Pit. I can "remember" a few races in the early years when I barely saw a race car, but saw lots of t!ts and streakers and mud wrestling.

The formation of CART in '78 initially had me thinking of greedy team owners doing a power grab. I recall quickly changing my mind when I saw what the USAC series had become, though.

I started going to my first non-Indy races in the early '80's at MIS. The place used to be packed and just as big a party in the infield as Indy was. I have lots of stories about that place, but I would digress if I told them.

After about five years of trying, I finally got tickets, real seat tickets, to Indy, in 1986. Side note: I sat in the infield bleachers (RIP, infield bleachers) with my fiancee. I don't remember who had the other six tickets I got. It was the year that the race was rained out and run the next Saturday, the day my fiancee became my wife. At a church a mile and a half from the track. At 5:30PM. ******* nightmare trying to get there. I should have gone to the race, becauce four years later she became my ex-wife. To this day, though, '77, '86, and '96 have been the only Indys I've not gone to since my first in '73. Sorry about that. I still hate TG and all the earl stands for but it is big and local, and I am still waiting for when Champ Car returns as Champ Car when earl dies. Then, my current tickets will be primo.

I started making annual trips to Road America, MIS, Detroit, and Mid-Ohio by the early '90's.

In '95 on the day of or shortly after the US 500 was announced to be run on Memorial Day '06, I was with a bunch of my racing buddies. We decided then and there to go to Michigan, and we did. Turns out, though, that most of them turned to their home track and became lemmings.

My introduction to the Internet was shortly followed by my discovery (or introduction to) 7G (member 756). I've met great gobs of great people since then. You know who you are. Since the death of MIS, M-O, and Detroit, I've added Cleveland and Milwawkee to my annual schedule, and am fired up about a return to Road America in '06. Yeee-haaa!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[theunions]

I discovered racing by watching a couple of films my dad took from his seat somewhere in the upper deck at the Indy 500 sometime in the late '50's when I was very young. I don't know what kind of camera it was, but the film on the reel was about a half inch wide, I guess. Whenever we would visit Grandma and Grandpa, I'd beg to get the projector and screen out and watch the film of the race.

You don't still have (access to) these films, do you?????

[Lizzerd]

You don't still have (access to) these films, do you?????

If they still exist, yes. I'll check with my brother. Why do you ask? Actually, I'm curious myself now.

[theunions]

If they still exist, yes. I'll check with my brother. Why do you ask? Actually, I'm curious myself now.

If any of the footage is specifically from 1958 (or '59, if it's early enough in the month), it may be exactly what I've been looking for for a very ambitious, frequently-delayed film project...please keep me posted!

[Lizzerd]

Check your PM.

[Andrew Longman]

...has still not proven to attract any following outside of a lonely retired snowmobile salesman, a pudgy cable installer who talks like Sylvester the Cat, and some parts department assistant manager named Bruce.


That's harsh but true :rofl:

[Spicoli]

I'll try to deflect another thread hijack attempt by Spicoli and try to stay on topic.

you tell em cowboy. :p

got hygeine? :shakehead

[IlliniRacer]

I grew up with Indy being THE race. My dad would also take us to DuQuoin and Springfield.

I was on the fence when I heard the TG was forming his own league. I kept thinking, "He won't really do it!" "They'll obviously work out some sort of agreement." They didn't. I was left on the fence. Then, I saw who was going to be driving in CART and who was driving in the IRL.

I have always been a huge Mario fan. Even rooted for Michael until he betrayed everyone for the almighty Yen. The Andretti's stayed with CART. As did all the other drivers I like, Vasser, Bettenhausen, and some young hot shoe from Indy Lights named Greg Moore.

The choice became TG's Indy featuring the Lazier, Calkins, and Salazar or the drivers that kept me on the edge of my seat without Indy.

The choice then, as it is now, was easy.

[Andrew Longman]

The choice became TG's Indy featuring the Lazier, Calkins, and Salazar or the drivers that kept me on the edge of my seat without Indy.

The choice then, as it is now, was easy.

I think it is interesting that while the split certainly split the fan base and that both sides certainly had diehards from the beginning, many people gave Tony's league a try, even really wanted to like it, but rejected it fairly quickly.

While it was fun to watch Joe Gozek qualify for the 500 it was simply novelty and did not replace seeing Andrettis, Unser, and truly professional teams like Penske, Ganassi, Forsythe and Newman Haas. There was no drama. When Cheever won in a ugly rudely sounding potato chip car I was truly done with the IRL

Sidenote: I remember an lengthy in-depth article in the New York Times (of all places!) on the IRL and CART feud and it included a line in an otherwise serious sober piece; "Salizar has proven there is not a car he can't wreck"

I thought I'd die laughing on that one. That was the year there we this great in car shot of him rear ending someone and the camera/car was suddenly pointed at the night sky.

Second sidenote: My company was owned for a period by USF&G insurance who sponsored Eddie's Arrows team in the late 80's. They also had Jackie Stewart on retainer as a spokesperson. They brought him to speak to a company-wide event in Orlando one year and he spent a good part of an hour speech explaining why their driver Cheever was a wanker and would amount to nothing. He was trying to make a business point, but as one of the few racefans in the room I was having a blast. I will always have those quotes in mind when someone brings up Cheever's dubious 500 win.

[KLang]

I was opposed to the earl from the start. I have never watched one of their races and if some sort of 'unification' comes about that has TG any more then a track owner I will not support the unified series.

I'm sure I'm in the minority around here in that I was never a big Indy fan to start with. Perhaps if I had attended back in the pre-earl days I might feel differently but I did not. My interest was in the series, the championship, the challenges of the diversity of circuits.

[mueber]

Get over the, "Tracy got screwed at Gomerville," stuff. That he got screwed is insignificant compared to the fact that he should not have been there in the first place. He deserved to get screwed, and he was.

Other than that, I second what OddlyCalm said. USAC was the very definition of incompetence. I knew a chief mechanic who used to say, "If you needed a USAC official, you had to go look through the station wagons in the parking lot for one with an old man in it taking a nap. That guy, he's the official."

Boy George is carrying on a long tradition, and I can't say I'm suprised.

[trauma1]

the fing day he made the 24/8 rule :flame:

[skaven]

O Muse Calliope, let me tell you of my Odyssey... :gomer:

The USAC days were before my time, but I grew up going to the track for practice and qualifications (hanging on the edge of my seat for Tom Carnegie's "a new track record"). The first races I remember were from the backyard 1970's. Other family members would be playing badminton and while they were shuttling cocks, I'd be at the radio updating the standings on the Indianapolis Star grid (as the race was blacked out locally).

The first race I attended was 1980 and I was crushed when Ongais had his big wreck in 1981. The last race I saw while a local was Sullivan's spin-n-win after which we moved to Florida. We road-tripped back for the '86 rain out and the '87 Al Sr. win.

In Florida, I lost track of racing while in high school and college, but moved to Chicago in '94, got a job and had some money. Went to the last real Indy in '95 and started watching the other races. I fell in love with Cleveland and Road America (the Robby Gordon, Villeneuve duel at Cleveland ??? was the best). I started to become a fan of all the races.

When FTG started his league, I was ambivalent and uninterested. As they moved away from the original vision of low-talent Americans racing for small budget teams to a vehicle to centralize control in Gomerville AND as I learned more about the politics behind the split, I became a hater.

These days, I spend every Memorial Day backpacking in the mountains and hoping my family doesn't get wiped out by debris.

[formulaben]

What was your odyssey to CC/away from the IRL?

I was never "in" with the IRL, so I never had to go away.

[DjDrOmusic]

I became a racing fan at a very early age, when I found pictures of my Uncle Chet, sitting in his car at Indy attempting to qualify. I asked my Mom about them and was told story after story about his racing exploits up and down the Pacific coast and his ill fated try at glory at Indy, when his best friend, and mechanic was killed in the pits after my Uncle lost control and spun coming in during a practice run. Uncle Chet retired from the sport on the spot, but my interest was spiked and after meeting him and sitting and listening to how special Indy was, I couldn't wait to go see the race. The closest I ever got was watching the 1967 500 on closed circuit TV at a movie theater in Erie, PA. The race was stopped for rain, but when the green flag was thrown the next day, a school day, my Mom took me anyway to watch. I followed the sport closely, and lived the dream of covering the USGP at Watkins Glen for several years, as well as doing a 1 hour radio interview with Tom Sneva, while he was driving the Norton Spirit for Penske. I'll admit I have watched a few IRL races, out of curiosity, and never found them enjoyable. I despise what has happened to the 500 and was one of those who use to want the two series to merge, but no more. Tony George and the IRL are like the aliens in War of the Worlds, only worried about what they want with no regard for those who outnumber them. I just wish the germs would act a little faster on the IRL than they did on the aliens!

[RacinM3]

Simple, CART was obviously the real thing, and the IRL was a poorly done fake. Pretty much the way it is today, and it wasn't really to difficult to spot back then. I knew it was a power-grab.

[L1P1]

As a kid I was more into drag racing, although I had been to the Michigan 500 and the John Player Special F1 model I built was my favorite. The Indy 500 was a radio tradition for my family as we prepared to put the boat back in the water for the summer.

When I moved to Indy some years before the split, I didn't pay much attention to it for some reason. But after a couple of years I figured that it ought to be somewhat of a civic duty to keep more informed. I began reading every 500-related article in the newspapers and my interest developed. Emmo fulfilled my pre-race prediction for a win. Then Arie followed suit when I finally decided to go to the race.

But I had so much trouble getting home that year I decided that I'd sit the next one out. Boy was I sorry. The morning of race day I started to fidget. I finally decided that I *had* to see the race and my only option was to head to a bar with a satellite hookup. On the way there, a quartet of F-16 fighter jets taunted me by flying right over my head and on towards the speedway. I was pounding my fist on the steering wheel cursing my stupidity. This would never happen again.

Michael came tantalizingly close to giving me three straight predictions in a row but failed. At least the dark year was over.

I returned to see Jacques win his the next year but by then the storm clouds were brewing. The dark decade was beginning. And that was the last time I went to the speedway.

When the split talk first started, I didn't have a dog in the race. I knew that USAC sanctioned the Indianapolis 500 while CART sanctioned the rest of the series. But, to me, that was just a quirky factoid to share with out-of-towners. I wasn't appalled by the decision to bring NASCAR to the track (sad, perhaps, but just another quirky factoid lost).

I read all the articles about the impending split that I could and tried to balance both sides of the issue. I was already leaning towards CART's side when I read a quote from Roger Penske: "If I can't build my own car, I'm not interested." That did it for me. Roger building and bringing his cars to the track was a big part of the whole deal.

But I still wanted to learn more about the other side. I couldn't imagine who would be supporting TG and why. So I found the IRACE (later SpeedTV) message boards. I started out just honestly asking IRL supporters about their reasoning (yeah, and, okay, later I enjoyed baiting them and then stringing them up).

Back at that time, I came to the conclusion that IRL supporters fell into two groups: A) The Spridget Affirmative Action crowd, and B) the people to whom the Indianapolis 500 was so central - to their very existance - that giving it up just was not an option under any circumstance. It would almost literally mean the end of their life.

Ironically, things are so much different today than they were before. The spridget crowd is again out on their keisters and the diehards (CamKing over at TF being notable) are really questioning what all this has gotten them. The superficiality of Danica Mania (no offense to her) is the only thing left.

However, Champ Car is not the same series as that I originally threw in with either. Given a 2005 comparison of the two series, I would have had to choose the IRL as superior by my standards. But, I think it seems that OWRS are done with the fire extinguishers and are busy with the 2X4's and hammers.

I think TG, standing in front of the embers, has just realized that maybe the hammer wasn't the best tool for the task at hand.

And Penske is building cars for LeMans. Cool.

[Andrew Longman]

...the John Player Special F1 model I built was my favorite...

Mine too. Though getting that gold pinstriping straight was frustrating. I may find a kit on eBay someday just to satisfy my desire to get it perfect.


[QUOTE=L1P1]...I think TG, standing in front of the embers, has just realized that maybe the hammer wasn't the best tool for the task at hand. QUOTE]

How true.

But does he know what tool he should be using now and how to use it?

[L1P1]

But does he know what tool he should be using now and how to use it?

No. But I do think that Penske and Honda have quietly walked up and taken the hammer from his hand and layed it back in the tool chest.

For some reason, they've resisted delivering the coup de' grace. It's well within their power, but they don't appear poised to do so.

I honestly wonder what Kevin Kalkhoven and Roger Penske think of each other.

[RTKar]

I was never "in" with the IRL, so I never had to go away.

Same here. I became a race fan because of my dad back in the USAC days...blah, blah, blah Gurney's letter and CART was formed, followed it from it's inception. Still loved the 500 when it meant something. After tg's tantrum though.... :thumdown:



If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[racer2c]

I've mentioned this at 7G and maybe even here, but...once upon a time...

My grandfather was a vice president of STP/Wagner in the mid 60's. He spearheaded their Indy car sponsorship endeavors in '68 with Andretti and Vukovich Jr. By the time I was 6 I had been to three 500's, by 12, seven. Some think the split started in 95. It actually began many years earlier between the road racing and circle track guys. Granddad often spoke of the animosity between the teams in the late 60’s and early 70’s; specifically spitting out the name Agajanian. Granddad took a golden parachute in the mid 70's and gave up his vip suite at the track to take up traveling the world.

My family moved from Ohio to D.C. in the early 80's and only made it to one more 500, but every Memorial Day weekend, my family was gathered around a TV by the pool picking drivers out of a hat in hopes that one of their chosen drivers would win so they could pocket 50 bucks. To this day that tradition continues, not because of any appreciation of the IRL, but rather homage to the decades of racing at Indy and the years of enjoyment it has brought me.

In '88 I had my first hero in Senna that sparked a new love for F1. With Nige coming over in '93 and Mario retiring, my focus returned to Indy Cars in the early 90's.

In '95 the locks were changed, literally, at the Speedway and the abomination was created. I never thought that it would last this long and I'm thankful that KK and crew have proved Sports Illustrated wrong in their late 90’s prediction that Champ Car would not last ten years (even though they were spot on about CART). It will be interesting to see who is left standing ten years from now. What a wild and crazy ride it's been.

FTG, F the IRL, F Penske, F Ganassi, FMikey and F Cheever and fat man Foyt just cuz I’ve always despised them. :)

[Cam]

Just goes to show how a childish tantrum can effect a complete society....... Pathetic! :shakehead

[RHR_Fan]

I became a fan after the split (1996) so I didn't have to endure any of that crap. I never paid much attention to the 500 since "my boys" didn't race there. I don't watch the 500 or irl races because it doesn't appeal to me. Even after some of my favourite drivers (Al jr, Helio, Gil, etc.) left I pretty much stopped following them. I wasn't boycotting them; they were just racing in a series that didn't appeal to me. Look at when CF left for nascar. I was a HUGE HUGE HUGE CF fan and even when he went to nascar I stopped following him. And it's the appeal thing again.

~Nicole

[formulaben]

Look at when CF left for nascar.

Who?!

[L1P1]

I became a fan after the split (1996) so I didn't have to endure any of that crap. I never paid much attention to the 500 since "my boys" didn't race there. I don't watch the 500 or irl races because it doesn't appeal to me. Even after some of my favourite drivers (Al jr, Helio, Gil, etc.) left I pretty much stopped following them. I wasn't boycotting them; they were just racing in a series that didn't appeal to me. Look at when CF left for nascar. I was a HUGE HUGE HUGE CF fan and even when he went to nascar I stopped following him. And it's the appeal thing again.

~Nicole

I'm curious to know why, if you liked CF so much, that his NASCAR career wasn't important but his Champ Car career was. What kept you tied to Champ Car?

[RHR_Fan]

I'm curious to know why, if you liked CF so much, that his NASCAR career wasn't important but his Champ Car career was. What kept you tied to Champ Car?

You ask too hard of questions! hehe ;) Well my parents and brother have always been big CC fans so it would have been hard to be interested in something else. As I kept going to races and gaining more knowledge and meeting people and what-not I just became more into it. Even as my favorite drivers left, I just started to follow other CC drivers more than I had before. I've never really had one hard-core favorite and thought all of the other drivers sucked. Currently, I like all of the drivers but some more than others. If Andrew Ranger and PT are battling for the lead, I'll want AR to win. I just love Champ Car and see the growth and potential in the future and I'm excited an plan on sticking it out. I don't think I realized how bad it got at the end of the 2003 and early 2004 with the whole assets deal.

As for CF...well...yeah...won't go there.

~Nicole

[theunions]

Second sidenote: My company was owned for a period by USF&G insurance who sponsored Eddie's Arrows team in the late 80's. They also had Jackie Stewart on retainer as a spokesperson. They brought him to speak to a company-wide event in Orlando one year and he spent a good part of an hour speech explaining why their driver Cheever was a wanker and would amount to nothing. He was trying to make a business point, but as one of the few racefans in the room I was having a blast. I will always have those quotes in mind when someone brings up Cheever's dubious 500 win.

So what specifically did Jackie say about the infamous Underacheever?

Just finished watching the full DVD release of "The Flying Scot" and wish somebody could've taped those comments (if they're like what I think they are) for the outtakes... :D

[fourrunner]

Started following F1 in the 1960's ... My Dad took me to Nazareth and Langehorne and started liking Mario Andretti, since he was from the region, plus at that age, Mario Andretti rolled from the tongue as a Race Drivers name
as a Mario fan I just naturally follwed him to CART .... I liked the Indy 500 as a race but not as a passion ... My loyalties always stayed with CART and Tony George has always been an irritant from his first try to take over CART then his formation of the IRL ...

I wrote quite a few letters to National Speed Sport News expressing my disgust with the situation and Tony George ... Some were even printed in the Letters section ... but I eventually cancelled my subscription when they sided with George

My heart broke with each Owner & Driver that defected to the IRL, but my resolve in supporting Champ Car / CART just got stronger ... My defiance and disgust with the Penske's & Gannassi's and Finally Rahal were the last straw ... My allegiance was to the series, not the Individual

However my respect for Kevin Kalkoven, Gerry Forsythe, and Paul Gentilozzi is immense ... as well as Jimmy Vasser, & Paul Tracy with there brave & defiant support of Champ Car ...

So NO I never had to drift from IRL to Champ Car ... I never even gave it a thought CART / Champ Car were always # 1

[Lizzerd]

... My heart broke with each Owner & Driver that defected to the IRL, but my resolve in supporting Champ Car / CART just got stronger ... My defiance and disgust with the Penske's & Gannassi's and Finally Rahal were the last straw ... My allegiance was to the series, not the Individual

However my respect for Kevin Kalkoven, Gerry Forsythe, and Paul Gentilozzi is immense ... as well as Jimmy Vasser, & Paul Tracy with there brave & defiant support of Champ Car ...

So NO I never had to drift from IRL to Champ Car ... I never even gave it a thought CART / Champ Car were always # 1

Well stated, fourrunner. My thoughts exactly. :thumbup:

[Kink]

My odyssey with CART goes back to 1979.
IMS decided it wanted to make the Indy 500 an invitational race and exclude the newly formed CART.
USAC was deteriorating with senile Harlan Fengler calling the shots as Chief Steward, and it appeared obvious that CART was a fresh direction for the sport in general.
So.......... off to the court room I went when CART decided to fight back.
I was in awe being in the same court room with Dan Gurney, Pat Patrick etc.

CART won the right to be at Indy and I have been in their corner from the start.
Imagine my dismay, and anger, when tg formed his little league and used Indy as a trump card. :mad:

[emjaya]

Champ Car come to Australia,the IRL don't.Hmm....that makes me wonder :eek:
Plus Champ Car is on TV,the Irl is not,only the 500.


There is more to it than that though,have to think about it. :)

[rosawendel]

i didn't know what to think of "the split" when it first happened... i had renewed my cleveland tickets every year since '91-92ish, and didn't know who was driving where, etc... i'd say my mind was made up the day i saw the first crapwagon.

[Andrew Longman]

So what specifically did Jackie say about the infamous Underacheever?

Just finished watching the full DVD release of "The Flying Scot" and wish somebody could've taped those comments (if they're like what I think they are) for the outtakes... :D

It's been a lot of years so I don't remember all the specifics, but here goes.

He went on a lot about his battle with dyslexia and what he had to do to overcome that. And he went on to talk about what it took to be a skeetshooting champion. And then he related it to winning a grand prix and how those lessons apply to business and life in general.

The thread to all this is keep a certain calm about you and approach everything with a steadiness and consistency. And to open your senses to all the data and feedback around and use it to improve performance inch by inch, minute by minute.

His knock on Cheever was that he was too wild with his emotions, inconsistent in his approach, and more engaged in himself than his actual performance. He kept coming back to him as an example of how to not do what he was suggesting (with Eddie's stellar F1 results to back him up).

[Rocketdoc]

I've been involved with Motorsports all of my life, and my Father was too, and my son does it for a living, and my daughter works for Roger Penske.

As a road racer, my natural inclination was with the road racers going firt to USAC racing, and then CART, and now ChampCar.
I've listened to the Indy 500 since as early as I can remember.

My Dad's good friend Ediie Sacks died at the track, and my friend Bobby Marshman died testing tires at Phoenix.

Until Tony George arrived upon the scene, Indy was at the forefront of my racing interest.


I've never considered the IRL worth one thought, and that continues to this day.

I've never liked Rahal and most certainly Gannasi, but when Penske left, that got to me.

May they all serve an eternal sentence in racing hell.



Just remember, Dyslexics are teople poo.

[NismoZ]

Interesting. I wanted to read what a lot of you had to say before I chimed in. I like hearing the differences among the older and younger fans as I really believe WHEN and WHERE your fan beginnings are is critical to where you are today. The topic question is open-wheel specific but I have to say that although I was certainly aware of Indy and it's top drivers as early as Lee Wallard,#99 ( :eek: !) my roots as an actual race fan can be traced to road racing and sportscars. Meadowdale, Wilmot, Road America, and others...my first favorites were guys like Chuck Daigh, Augie Pabst, Roger Penske, Jim Hall and then Mark Donohue. It was The big bore SCCA Nationals, The June Sprints the USAC Formula Libre (how many of you got to see Roger Ward in that Offy Midget race a 16 yr.old Ricardo Rodriguez in his new RSK Porsche?) the USRRCs (Penske in the automatic Chaparral, and Ken Miles Cobra) The Trans Am, Can Am and F-5000 races (Mario!) by the gross. When Mario, and Team Penske and AAR went single seat, so did I. See, the open wheelers CAME TO ME on the road courses. Only one other poster here alluded to the "split" beginning long before CART was formed. I was there, saw it and just knew Penske, Gurney and the others had the right idea. A lot of my sports car buddies hated Mario because he was an Indy Guy and a "Roundy-'Rounder", but I knew better. The best of BOTH was where it was at and when Mark Donohue won at Indy I was never a happier fan! I loved the diversity of tracks and drivers and a whole bunch of 'em close enough so I could actually see them instead of waiting for the next Road & Track to come in the mail! You bet Indy was hi-jacked, with good reason. FTG grew up hearing that every day of his young life and when he was able to TRY to do something about it, he did. Screwed up royally, but even in '94 I sensed WHY he was doing it. As far as the second half of the topic is concerned, I recall watching the first Disneyland race because I've always had a sense for history and this year I watched their road races for much the same reason but whole months and seasons went by and I wasn't even aware many of the League races were being run (except the 500) However, if I missed ANY CART/CC races it was a major disappointment. There has always been enough to complain about, even with CART/CC, but nothing compares to the gutting of the openwheel segment of the sport starting back in '94. Tell you what, though, if it was Augie power sliding the Scarab out of Doane's Corner at Meadowdale and running it up around the "Monza Wall"...or Bourdais coming down through the gears into 5 at RA, then up the hill toward 6, it's still the same for me...THRILLING! :) Can't wait to get back!

[Andrew Longman]

Nizmo, I feel like I just read an extra chapter to The Last Open Road :)