Mid-Ohio To Be Given The Punt?

[turn1]

Perhaps this is overkill, but I find this disturbing. This is a quote from Autoweek:

"Pook telegraphed a similar fate for Mid-Ohio, another traditional road course venue: “Mid-Ohio is difficult for us, it’s Ohio twice.” CART sees the nearby downtown Cleveland date as a better fit with its business model. However, Pook did say unless or until a street venue could be found in the San Francisco metropolitan market, the Laguna Seca race is probably safe."

I am curious to hear everyone's thoughts from this forum on possibly losing yet another of our beautiful road courses.

[Joe in LA]

:mad:

I understand the business reason, but Road America, Laguna Seca, Mid Ohio are what its all about.

[JLMannin]

At the current rate things are going, it does not suprise me that Mid-Ohio and Laguna Seca at risk. I think it sucks, as I have grown fond of the CART road course races. The "business model" appears to be driven by ticket sales, and it is hard to argue against that. I am not advocating dropping all the road courses in favor for urban temp circiuts, but I think this is an effect of going public.

Temp circiuts like Cleveland are great. St Pete was not that bad. Detroit (the Belle Isle course) was terrible, as was Houston and Miami, IMO. Long Beach is so-so, as are Vacouver and Toronto.

I gues what I am saying is that I am not opposed to temp street circiuts, but they must have a passing zone other than the pits; and there needs to be equipment in place to get stalled cars out of the way, and fast. Full course cautions consuming 20% of the scheduled race distance make for a non-exciting race, IMO. I think cranes in trouble areas would help, but not eliminate the full-course cautions, due to the tight confines of cramming a temp circuit where is does not really fit.

John

[Warlock!]

Just remember that...
Originally posted by turn1
...This is a quote from Autoweek:
That taken into consideration, if you're gettin' 40-60K people to show up in the middle of nowhere in the rural farmlands to see a race, there must be fans of rural road courses races... even without the "glamour" of the city races. If true, it's a major drag and a pisser, this being my home track. Enough for me to whine about it being "the last straw" as a ChampCar fan?

Hell no.

Warlock!

[pchall]

'lock is on to something.

I think the road course owners and promoters have been dropping the ball over the last few years. Where are the improvements and the promotions? Laguna is making some upgrades, but the track itself is not being attended to by the pavers. Mid-Ohio apparently hasn't done anything to the track itslef since they were hoping for a Busch race in the late 80s. M-O could really use some new granstands, especially on the "back" straight where a second level would give some great sight lines. Portland has been run down for years and the Festival Curves could be fixed with a dozer and a backhoe and an asphalt paving machine by a bunch of fans. RA just doesn't seem to care since some of the water problems could be fixed with a backhoe and some drainage tile in a couple of days.

WTF? Fans love these places and the owners don't seem to care. :(

[cart7]

Losing M/O and Laguna would be my last straw.

It's unfortunate that most temp street circuits are designed with an emphasis on the local Chamber of Commerce's agenda rather than how good the circuit is race-wise. This is the downfall of street racing IMO. The current LB layout isn't is good as the previous but was changed at the behest of LB to showcase their new oceanfront development. As I've said before, I'm an involved fan of Cart and buy tickets, souvenirs, etc., from supporting sponsors. I wouldn't be as prone to do it if the league turns almost entirely to street racing, anymore than I can support an ovals only series. I was a fan of the series when it started in '79. I became a big fan of the series when it became diversified in it's drivers, venue's, engine and chassis manufacturer's. It's losing it's original appeal.:shakehead

[sundaydriver]

Originally posted by pchall
'lock is on to something.

I think the road course owners and promoters have been dropping the ball over the last few years. Where are the improvements and the promotions? Laguna is making some upgrades, but the track itself is not being attended to by the pavers. Mid-Ohio apparently hasn't done anything to the track itslef since they were hoping for a Busch race in the late 80s. M-O could really use some new granstands, especially on the "back" straight where a second level would give some great sight lines. Portland has been run down for years and the Festival Curves could be fixed with a dozer and a backhoe and an asphalt paving machine by a bunch of fans. RA just doesn't seem to care since some of the water problems could be fixed with a backhoe and some drainage tile in a couple of days.

WTF? Fans love these places and the owners don't seem to care. :(

This is absolutly spot on.

CART cannot continue racing at venues that dont give a **** about promotion and improvements. CART needs to race on courses that are going to be promoted and attended. CART will not exist if this does not happen. I would rather see CART continue on with street races, than continue to race on tracks that have dwindling attendance. I know the racing might not be as good or have "tradition", but consider the alternitive.

[RichK]

Originally posted by sundaydriver
I know the racing might not be as good or have "tradition", but consider the alternitive.

To be honest, I've already begun considering the alternative: F1. I'm in the same boat as cart7 above, my interest in CART will drop considerably if Mid-O & Laguna go (and RA stays gone). My dollars will shift from Long Beach/Laguna/Fontana to Montreal (F1). This is coming from a 20 year CART fanatic.

[nrc]

I've said it over and over, I'm not interested in a series full of street courses.

CART sought support from MidOhio fans in Columbus when the series was in distress. We provided a big show of support when CART needed a shot in the arm. Turning around and dropping MidOhio would be nothing short of a knife in the back to all those fans. Cleveland is not a substitute and neither is a road course somewhere else in Europe or "the Pacific rim."

[ncmlj]

The joys of RA and MO to me, I had the option, sit in the back of my truck on a lawn chair, sit in a lawn chair on the grass, lay on the grass with my cooler :-) or catch a blecher seat<-- wasn't usually a pick though. Ra and MO you have many things to do as family cook out, pass the football around,play some frisbe and so on. Other races I have been to Toronto & Cleveland they were no where near the joy of RA and MO, but night life was a good time. Then again though (Tor& Cle) wasnt something I did with my kids. When we went to Tornoto it was my 1st visit to Niagra falls and all the while me and wife wished we had the kids along to enjoy it. When it is all said and done, If Pook is going street racing I don't see me being to many if any more Cart races.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[turn1]

Originally posted by pchall
Mid-Ohio apparently hasn't done anything to the track itslef since they were hoping for a Busch race in the late 80s. M-O could really use some new granstands, especially on the "back" straight where a second level would give some great sight lines.

Mid-Ohio has done a lot of work around the facility in the past ten years. Do you think your average fan would rather sit in a grandstand or on his blanket stretched out? What other features would be a valued addition?

[rabbit]

Why spend a bunch of money upgrading your track to keep CART happy when you can make money running an amateur weekend like the Runoffs?

[RTKar]

Originally posted by RichK
To be honest, I've already begun considering the alternative: F1. I'm in the same boat as cart7 above, my interest in CART will drop considerably if Mid-O & Laguna go (and RA stays gone). My dollars will shift from Long Beach/Laguna/Fontana to Montreal (F1). This is coming from a 20 year CART fanatic.


I'm pretty much leaning towards a ditto here too.

[Railbird]

Why spend a bunch of money upgrading your track to keep CART happy when you can make money running an amateur weekend like the Runoffs?


rabbit nails it.

Clubs and schools bring packaged weekends that make money at the back gate. Vintage deals like the Redmann and high-end amatuer events like the Runoffs and June Sprints bring money in both gates.

Gotta wonder what the sanctioning fee is for any of those.


I enjoy the streets so I'm not throwing down any gauntlet on my fandom, but then again the lack of diversity does discount series IMO.

[Tom Slick]

I was attending four CART races a year. Now I am down to two.
If they drop Mid Ohio, I am dropping CART altogether.
I think there are two or three tracks within 100 miles of here that run WoO.
And I have been thinking of seeing F1 at Indy.

[dirtyboy]

Originally posted by Railbird
Why spend a bunch of money upgrading your track to keep CART happy when you can make money running an amateur weekend like the Runoffs?


rabbit nails it.

Clubs and schools bring packaged weekends that make money at the back gate. Vintage deals like the Redmann and high-end amatuer events like the Runoffs and June Sprints bring money in both gates.

Gotta wonder what the sanctioning fee is for any of those. Tracks make a lot of their money from food and souvenirs concessions. The big races, like Cart, bring in more people thus more products sold. Just think about how much the tracks make just on beer sales alone over three days. I made a rough calculation once and it was HUGE!!!

[Sean O'Gorman]

Originally posted by dirtyboy
Just think about how much the tracks make just on beer sales alone over three days. I made a rough calculation once and it was HUGE!!!

And just think what the amount would be if Warlock couldn't bring his own beer! :rofl:

[RTKar]

Originally posted by Tom Slick
I was attending four CART races a year. Now I am down to two.
If they drop Mid Ohio, I am dropping CART altogether.
I think there are two or three tracks within 100 miles of here that run WoO.
And I have been thinking of seeing F1 at Indy.

I'm in the same boat as Tom. Not counting Indy which I last went to in 95. I at one time had 4 races; Milw,RA,MIS, and Chicago, had I attended Mid-O, Cleveland and St Louis, I could have easily attended 7 races within an easy days drive. Just counting the 4 easiest races for me to attend, I didn't have to make too many special arrangements regarding travel or accomodations nor did I have to use much vacation time. If CART proceeds with its street racing plan, I would most certainly have to take additional time off from work and spend quite a bit more money to attend any additional races. From what I've seen of street racing on television, I don't think the product warrants it. I would agree that CART should probably be racing on the streets of Chicago (it being a major corporate center)as well as places like Toronto but I also feel that to build solid television ratings CART needs its' races more or less clustered in regions of population not just in scattered city centers. Interest in the series will not be built by people attending a party in the city once a year that happens to have a car race going on. CART lost many of its fans due to the split,poor racing on street circuits and short ovals, poor marketing and bad management. To blame any loss in tv ratings or race attendance on anything else will only destroy the core of the series and allienate the most loyal of fans.

[pchall]

Originally posted by turn1
Mid-Ohio has done a lot of work around the facility in the past ten years. Do you think your average fan would rather sit in a grandstand or on his blanket stretched out? What other features would be a valued addition?

So they've done up some nice ammenities.

As much as I love walking around the grounds at M-O on Friday and Saturday, I can still admit that the track itself needs to be upgraded.

[Peter Olivola]

The "sanctioning fee" for club and vintage racing is a positive cash flow for the track. Clubs pay rental, they don't collect a sanctioning fee. SCCA regions pay SCCA national a sanctioning fee plus insurance and in turn collect the entry fees. Vintage "clubs" are, for the most part, the creatures of individual entrepreneurs who intend making money on the weekends. They pay themselves from entries, pay the track a rental and the track collects the gate.

It's a very different economic model, and permanent road courses in the U.S. are not only fully booked for every weekend of the season, many are in use during the week by organizations who are on weekend waiting lists to get dates.

Once upon a time permanent road courses tolerated club events to be able to be approved to run pro events where they made money. That's no longer the case. Pro events generate enormous cash flows, but also enormous expenses. It's much easier to operate catering to club/vintage events and requires considerably less resources. The only "pro" permanent road course built in the last decade is Barber Motorsports Park in Alabama and it was motivated by the love of motorcycle racing, not pro car racing. Every other road course built in that time frame considers itself primarily a club course. Some may evolve into pro tracks as well, but they weren't built to depend on that model.


Originally posted by Railbird
Clubs and schools bring packaged weekends that make money at the back gate. Vintage deals like the Redmann and high-end amatuer events like the Runoffs and June Sprints bring money in both gates.

Gotta wonder what the sanctioning fee is for any of those.


I enjoy the streets so I'm not throwing down any gauntlet on my fandom, but then again the lack of diversity does discount series IMO.

[Hardpoint]

I would have to say that dropping Mid-Ohio may be the last straw for me. Having not missed a Cart event there in 15+ years, I don't know what I would do with myself in August. I was pissed when Michigan was lost, but M-O is a whole other story. The only possible upside is the reduction in substantial damage done to my liver.:thumdown: :thumdown:

[Gurneyflap]

MY BROTHERS! You are all correct, you know. We have all seen the changes. We have long been aware of "the direction." The changes will continue and I suspect more of us will feel the weight of that "last straw." I can't see any of us no longer being race fans, but it'll be painful losing an old friend that has distracted us from daily life boredoms for so long. No need to explain geography, demographics, economics or TV needs. I wish I had a nickle for every doom and gloom rumor that HAS come true, so I do not doubt this one. What did Paul Simon say in "Old Friends"? Something about "...the photographs. They're all that's left to you."? Hell, we can take a new direction, too, ya know! Look FORWARD!

[FortyOneFord]

Well, it should be safe for at least another 2 years. The best way to help keep it on the schedule is to make sure and attend.

I, on the other hand, am not to concerned about losing the track. I just like watching loud, fast cars tear it up wherever I can. The sites, smells, sounds, etc. are just as cool at Long Beach as they are at Laguna Seca. But hey, I had a tremendous time the 3 times I went to the old Houston track.

In either case, it isn't the last straw for me. Even though the direction CART seems to be headed is away from it's traditional courses (ovals, roads), I still like what I see. Cool cars, going fast and making noise. And I love seeing different cities and having a little fun while I'm there.

[mnkywrch]

Bird & rabbit nail it.

If CART could get ownership that isn't interested in ever increasing profit margins (that means no MPH and no Bernie) through ever increasing sanctioning fees, perhaps the tracks would have the cash to make improvements.

I agree with those not very interested in a series that only runs real circuits overseas.

[Ziggy]

Hey FourtyOneFord, post your address and I will drive by your house with a 72 Ford LTD with the Y pipe broken. Maybe slide around in the pea gravel a little. That ought to get you charged up....

Ziggy

[FortyOneFord]

Originally posted by Ziggy
Hey FourtyOneFord, post your address and I will drive by your house with a 72 Ford LTD with the Y pipe broken. Maybe slide around in the pea gravel a little. That ought to get you charged up....

Ziggy

Umm, none for me thanks! LOL.

And it's somewhere in New Mexico, no pea gravel, just sand......

[Jag_Warrior]

Originally posted by turn1
Perhaps this is overkill, but I find this disturbing. This is a quote from Autoweek:

"Pook telegraphed a similar fate for Mid-Ohio, another traditional road course venue: “Mid-Ohio is difficult for us, it’s Ohio twice.” CART sees the nearby downtown Cleveland date as a better fit with its business model. However, Pook did say unless or until a street venue could be found in the San Francisco metropolitan market, the Laguna Seca race is probably safe."

I am curious to hear everyone's thoughts from this forum on possibly losing yet another of our beautiful road courses.

Didn't I read that CART re-upped with Laguna recently?

And when is the contract up with Mid-Ohio?

[RaceGrrl]

IIRC, Pook said in the town meeting that CART is re-negotiating with MO right now.