HRL News

[NismoZ]

Huh, It really WAS the HRL. Stories are saying Honda owned all their cars over there and sunk as much as 100 mil per year into the effort and 20 mil in chassis development alone in the last two years. Chevy and Toyota combined are said to have spent 70 milllion yearly. Astronomical figures when compared to the .5 mil Ford pays to badge the Cosworths and 1-2 mil in other CC series support. If true or even close to accurate the comparison leaves me wondering how CC is surviving let alone appearing to prosper. Fewer Tonybucks may have been spent than KK bucks? So Honda absorbed all their crash damage too? And they want to KEEP doing this for 4 more seasons? If KK has been spending against Honda and FTG that leaves me in even more awe. And he said he "could keep doing this forever", right?

[Rob]

Honda did it to defeat Toyota. Mission accomplished.

[nrc]

So Honda absorbed all their crash damage too? And they want to KEEP doing this for 4 more seasons? If KK has been spending against Honda and FTG that leaves me in even more awe. And he said he "could keep doing this forever", right?

Honda spent that money to ensure that they would beat Toyota. They won't spend nearly as much once the competition is gone.

There's no reason to think that KK has to compete with Honda on spending. Champ car has gotten expenses to the point where they can field teams at a reasonable cost. If teams like Coyne, Walker, and Conquest could get by under the old model without assistance, I doubt that they're needing much now.

[NismoZ]

Which makes me wonder why they re-upped 'til '09. Is there THAT much benefit to saying "We won the Honda 500"?

[dando]

Which makes me wonder why they re-upped 'til '09. Is there THAT much benefit to saying "We won the Honda 500"?
Maybe they really like the scoring pagoda. :gomer:

-Kevin

[cart7]

I posted in the other thread on the Panther auction.

An "Insider" poster at Dolans forum said he was at the Panther auction yesterday and was talking to other insiders. Basically the belief is is that several of the Honda teams are still recieving assistance of some kind. That that assistance will probably evaporate at this years end and those teams basically can't be trusted to stick around if the money goes elsewhere.

Panthers John Barnes said it best. The Honda yen allowed the support teams to offer primary sidepod signage at a discount, at prices way below what it takes to actually support a team for a season. This set the price. Now no one can get decent sponsor $$ because of the precedent set by the high profile Honda support teams. They're screwed basically.

BTW, Panther needs 4-5 million to compete this season with one car. They have a car but not the money, apparently nowhere near enough. What's an average to run a CCWS team? I've got to think it's a little less than 4-5 million.

[FTG]

Which makes me wonder why they re-upped 'til '09. Is there THAT much benefit to saying "We won the Honda 500"?

I wonder why anyone believes they will stick around until 09.

[oddlycalm]

I wonder why anyone believes they will stick around until 09. Exactly right. Honda will participate right up until it no longer suits their purposes. Don't look for any agreement or contract to change that if they decide to go. My guess would be that cutting off the money to the teams they support would be all that is necessary to bring the series, and by extension their involvement, to an abrupt conclusion.

They won't end their US racing presence by choice however, so until you see them ready to pop up somewhere else they will probably stay where they are.

oc

[spinner26]

m best guess is they will continue in the HRL til it's their turn to switch to NASCAR. In the end the only place for a supplier to be is where the money is.

[Methanolandbrats]

Honda is an immoral collection of ****bags. They will leave whenever they want. Take a look at what they did when they began losing in F1 at the end of the 80s. They are about marketing, not racing.

[pfc_m_drake]

Honda is an immoral collection of ****bags. They will leave whenever they want. Take a look at what they did when they began losing in F1 at the end of the 80s. They are about marketing, not racing.
You do know that Honda won every driver's championship from 1987-1991 right?

Seriously - Honda is all about technology and racing. Look at the first post in this thread. The reason Honda bought all of their team's chassis was because they didn't want to lose any of the technology they had spent time and $$$ developing to another manufacturer.

Toyota, on the other hand, is in the game for marketing/selling cars.

[Methanolandbrats]

You do know that Honda won every driver's championship from 1987-1991 right?

Seriously - Honda is all about technology and racing. Look at the first post in this thread. The reason Honda bought all of their team's chassis was because they didn't want to lose any of the technology they had spent time and $$$ developing to another manufacturer.

Toyota, on the other hand, is in the game for marketing/selling cars.THanks, but I do know that. Their stated reason for leaving was to "build energy efficient cars". The real reason was because Renault was kicking their asses.

[pfc_m_drake]

Actually, their real reason was because they were going to CART.

Most people (not necessairly myself) believe that Honda's only goal in life is to beat Toyota in racing. You're one of the only people I've ever heard say they could care less about winning and are only in the game to sell cars.

Not meant to be an argument, just an observation.

[fourrunner]

Honda may have "re-upped" till 2009, but like most contracts, the "Devil is in the Details" ... The "2009" date is probably just for IRL "PR" giving the illusion that they are just fine !

I can't believe that Honda doesn't have strings attached to each year of this contract ! Or that it is a year to year deal with an "out" for each year !

[NismoZ]

Yes, I've thought that from the day of the announcement. They may have agreed to "supply" engines through '09 but there is no way The League can dictate prices or support levels. Actually it probably makes sense for Honda to keep "winning" with the now lower costs, especially due to less development I assume. No other large manufacturer gets to do that. As noted, until they move in a different direction why NOT win The 500 every year? To this day I still shake my head when thinking about Clarke asking KK to build an HRL spec engine to give Honda the competition they say they craved. (You mean he just wanted KK to replace the Chevy cash or look for someone else to badge that same engine?) I didn't think he'd have the guts. If he wants the competition all he has to do between now and '09 is put that 120 mil each year toward a new CC spec turbo and see if he can beat that little Cosworth operation, within a strict set of controlling guidelines, of course. ;) Sounds like a scenerio to which KK has left an open door?

[Andrew Longman]

Since Mr. Honda died the culture of Honda has IMO changed somewhat. My work causes me to spend a fair amount of time at various sites and the passion to beat Toyota has shifted somewhat. VW and a few other euro brands are now seen more seriously as competitive threats in the market and styling/marketing is getting greater attention.

That said, racing is still important to them and competition is a deep part of the culture.

They will leave the IRL whenever they want, contract or no, just as Toyota did. They simply need to drop team support to the point where no team can or wants to be a customer. No customers = no reason for a contract.

But I don't think they'll do that either. And I don't think they are as interested as some think in NASCAR. They could have been there already with Toyota and chose not to. That says something, even if I don't know exactly what.

For them I doubt they want to see an end to the IRL or the I500. It would diminish the marketing value of everything they've already accomplish and it doesn't look great to be associated with a failed series. Rather I suspect they are hoping to participate with some consolidation with CCWS and see the combined series grow into something that has great marketing value for them.

But I also imagine they are uncomfortable with too great a role in actually running or supoprting that series. I'll bet they are not crazy at all about their role in 06. It is way off their strategy to be running a race series or have such a major role in keeping it afloat. I suspect they view it as the best available option for a year or two (and I really think it is just one) until the players get things sorted out. And if they don't sort it out, then they will likely leave, which will leave TG to run Silver Crown cars for the 500.

Just my somewhat informed opinion.

[NismoZ]

Then I feel somewhat informed, too! Couldn't agree more with what you just said. :thumbup: I thought I was reading...ME! :D

[racer2c]

You two aren't cowboys by chance?

[NismoZ]

Why, you little... :saywhat:

[Andrew Longman]

You two aren't cowboys by chance?

Absolutely NOT. Not that there would be anything wrong with that. ;)

[SurfaceUnits]

So I suppose homoco will spend any amount necessary to ensure they are not the engine supplier of the first sub 33 mindy field since 1247 AD. :shakehead

[Car-B-Q]

Honda may have "re-upped" till 2009, but like most contracts, the "Devil is in the Details" ... The "2009" date is probably just for IRL "PR" giving the illusion that they are just fine !

I can't believe that Honda doesn't have strings attached to each year of this contract ! Or that it is a year to year deal with an "out" for each year !
See Toyota contract with IRL. Obviously not worth the paper they are printed on.

[Rocketdoc]

I wonder why anyone believes they will stick around until 09.


I don't think that Honda will be watching Toyota gaining all kinds of ink and exposure at NASCAR and continue supporting a series that no one watches.

I say that Honda is gone after 2006, the same way that Toyota did it; keeping up the retoric until the waining months of the season and then pulling the plug saying "so sue me".

[NismoZ]

And if they don't go to NASCAB? What do they do, abandon the American market? If they've burned bridges with ChampCar the only other two series I can see them even interested in are the Rolex and ALMS. Of the two, ALMS seems like a better fit for their competitive instincts. Failing that, winning Indy every year and plastering USA Today with full page ads 15 times during the season may have to suffice.

[L1P1]

I wonder why anyone believes they will stick around until 09.

Perhaps now that they've chased everyone out and they're staying 'til '09 to mop up. It occurs to me that Honda is locked in as the sole engine maker until '09 - at rates that are far less favorable than Cosworth's (and they can keep them that way).

So, for '07 & '08, why would anyone run an IRL program instead of a Champ car effort? Oh, "Indy" you say.... But Honda's having a May Madness fire sale to try to get 33 cars. So, you go to Champ Car, save money and use the savings for a one-off at Indy.

TG can't say no. Honda's calling the shots. Panoz holds some cards. The IRL season grid withers on the vine. Honda gets to win Indy every year. The Champ car series is flush with teams and for 2010, Honda announces that they're impressed with the progress of the Champ Car series and indicates that they've come to a favorable agreement with OWRS and will join the competition in '10 (perhaps along with others).

[Ruok]

I don't think that Honda will be watching Toyota gaining all kinds of ink and exposure at NASCAR and continue supporting a series that no one watches.

Oh my goodness, Toyota is already on the lips of every NASCAR fan. The fans either love em or hate em, but that is some serious name recognition.

Honda? Seriously, how many Americans even know they are involved in 'top level' racing in the US? And how many of them actually care?

[Steve99]

Honda? Seriously, how many Americans even know they are involved in 'top level' racing in the US? And how many of them actually care?
Where in the U.S. is Honda involved in 'top level' racing? The single F1 race in the U.S. doesn't count.