3 More For Merger

[NismoZ]

Honda's Clarke, Ford's Davis...and all the Andrettis! :eek: The band wagon is loading.

[RaceGrrl]

Of course Clarke and Mikey are going to be for unification. They're in a crap series with crap cars and crap tracks. Mario has always been for unification, so that's not news. Ford, well, they probably wouldn't mind a little competition.

I don't want unification if it means that Champ Car gives up its identity for the sake of TG, Indy, Honda or the Andretti name. I would watch Champ Car sans Indy for the rest of my life over some watered down unified series.

Oh, and just because the bandwagon is loading doesn't make it right. When the traitors left ChampCar for the IRL, they loaded the bandwagon in favor of the IRL and it didn't help. The bandwagon is only as good as the people on it.

[G.]

Of course Clarke and Mikey are going to be for unification. They're in a crap series with crap cars and crap tracks. Mario has always been for unification, so that's not news. Ford, well, they probably wouldn't mind a little competition.

I don't want unification if it means that Champ Car gives up its identity for the sake of TG, Indy, Honda or the Andretti name. I would watch Champ Car sans Indy for the rest of my life over some watered down unified series.

Oh, and just because the bandwagon is loading doesn't make it right. When the traitors left ChampCar for the IRL, they loaded the bandwagon in favor of the IRL and it didn't help. The bandwagon is only as good as the people on it.Post. Of. The. Year. :thumbup: :thumbup:

[Spicoli]

Honda's Clarke, Ford's Davis...and all the Andrettis! :eek: The band wagon is loading.

huh?

linky?

[not a doubter, but where deese comin frum?}

[KLang]

huh?

linky?

[not a doubter, but where deese comin frum?}

My bet, AR1.

[KLang]

My prediction.....

Just like in previous years, this merger crap is being driven by the press. Nothing will come of it.

I don't know who has a worse case of incurable indyitis, the old Cart owners or Robin and the rest of the open wheel press. :rolleyes:

[fourrunner]

AR1 stated that Ford wants unification ... Then stated that Both "ENGINE MANUFACTURERS" now wanted Unification ( Honda & Ford )

Last I looked Ford was an Engine "Badger" not a Manufacturer !

AR1 is just sounding the drum beat so frequently to make sure everyone knows they were on board all along, and had some hand in creating unification ! :rolleyes:

[Gnam]

Yeah Tony George is a, "Uniter, Not a Divider!" :p

[cameraman]

I just wish these people would listen to KK and stfu...

[TravelGal]

Post. Of. The. Year. :thumbup: :thumbup:

Yeah! My thoughts exactly.

Honda says they will not stand in the way. That means they won't be using the contract they have to hold things up. That's probably an understatement. I am certain they would like to get back to real racing and producing engines that will help them in their R&D efforts.

I am about sick of all the talk. There's an article, maybe on Autoracing1, that says deciding to do it is one thing. Actually doing it is another. That's my take. Pardon me if I've posted this before but I don't believe for a New York minute that TG will allow anything like what we want to happen.

We'll see, won't we?

[fourrunner]

Yeah! My thoughts exactly.

Honda says they will not stand in the way. That means they won't be using the contract they have to hold things up. That's probably an understatement. I am certain they would like to get back to real racing and producing engines that will help them in their R&D efforts.

I am about sick of all the talk. There's an article, maybe on Autoracing1, that says deciding to do it is one thing. Actually doing it is another. That's my take. Pardon me if I've posted this before but I don't believe for a New York minute that TG will allow anything like what we want to happen.

We'll see, won't we?


But if it's true that Tony is Propping up Half the Field for Indy ... I can't see him doing it again ... And come 2007 and the new Champ Car Chassis & Engine drawing interest from some of the IRL teams he may be in for more "Out of Pocket" for Next year !

I think post Indy, If any of these desperation measures come true, the Press turns on him Big Time, and probably some of the teams die ! Then it's just a waiting game ..

Just a guess !!

[ChrisB]

I don't want unification if it means that Champ Car gives up its identity

The Champ Car name will probably be replaced by "IndyCar" but I suppose the "greatest challenge on a variety of ovals, roads, etc, etc" thing will become the new Indy mantra.

I'm mainly satisfied that (according to the romours) it'll be the DP01 and the turbo engine. That's what matters most to me. Oh, and a Philly-area race too.

[racer2c]

[i]

I'm mainly satisfied that (according to the romours) it'll be the DP01 and the turbo engine. That's what matters most to me. .

I won't watch if it's not. :thumbup:

[Andrew Longman]

I don't want unification if it means that Champ Car gives up its identity

The Champ Car name will probably be replaced by "IndyCar" but I suppose the "greatest challenge on a variety of ovals, roads, etc, etc" thing will become the new Indy mantra.

I'm mainly satisfied that (according to the romours) it'll be the DP01 and the turbo engine. That's what matters most to me. Oh, and a Philly-area race too.

Me too and no I won't watch it if its not.

I had an interesting private exchange with a team member of one of the new Atlantics team. His suggestion is that insuring cars to run on ovals is exponentially more expensive than road courses. Makes sense. But if its 300K to insure a 2 car Atlantics team running only road course you can imagine what it is for an IRL team running all ovals.

My guess/prediction is all these chassis TG is giving away to get to Indy will begin to disappear as the season goes on and the begin to back into walls. Without the Honda money to insure them, they might get them to the track but they can't replace them. Is this another reason for a compressed schedule? Fewer races, less risk?

IRL team are looking into the season and not seeing how this is going to be a great year and it only makes sense if it gives them a bridge to a better year next year.

[Spicoli]

Me too and no I won't watch it if its not.

I had an interesting private exchange with a team member of one of the new Atlantics team. His suggestion is that insuring cars to run on ovals is exponentially more expensive than road courses. Makes sense. But if its 300K to insure a 2 car Atlantics team running only road course you can imagine what it is for an IRL team running all ovals.

My guess/prediction is all these chassis TG is giving away to get to Indy will begin to disappear as the season goes on and the begin to back into walls. Without the Honda money to insure them, they might get them to the track but they can't replace them. Is this another reason for a compressed schedule? Fewer races, less risk?

IRL team are looking into the season and not seeing how this is going to be a great year and it only makes sense if it gives them a bridge to a better year next year.


I saw that thread on TF with "cosworth" poster. Makes total sense. I have long said that the only thing left after "it's a new track record" on biggie ovals is accidents. Milwaukee's pretty cool, but that's short and it's not all that dangerous (realtively)....So "F" the big superspeedways really. Fun to watch sometimes, but at what price?

[G.]

I saw that thread on TF with "cosworth" poster. Makes total sense. I have long said that the only thing left after "it's a new track record" on biggie ovals is accidents. Milwaukee's pretty cool, but that's short and it's not all that dangerous (realtively)....So "F" the big superspeedways really. Fun to watch sometimes, but at what price?Oh, Jeebus Christmas!!!

Are you finally done with the Indyitis?? Have you joined us (some of us, anyway)??

I can live without Mindy. So can you. :thumbup:











(i have gathered through many posts that you want to have CC at mindy. if I am incorrect, and you do not have indyfever, i apologise, in advance.)

(i would love to have cc at indy, but only if FTG is a track owner. until then, i can do without, thankyouverymuch.)

[Spicoli]

Oh, Jeebus Christmas!!!

Are you finally done with the Indyitis?? Have you joined us (some of us, anyway)??

I can live without Mindy. So can you. :thumbup:











(i have gathered through many posts that you want to have CC at mindy. if I am incorrect, and you do not have indyfever, i apologise, in advance.)

(i would love to have cc at indy, but only if FTG is a track owner. until then, i can do without, thankyouverymuch.)


Dear Dumbass:

Put down the huka, reread the post, then ponder....


I just want me race back, after 10 years, 1 stolen race (02) and the babbling idiopt racing league, YES - I want unification, and YES I want the Indy 500 back on the CCWS schedule.

Signed:

smarter than you, and living in Indy.

[jonovision_man]

Most stakeholders are pro-unification.

Except the series ownership, apparantly. And that's all that matters in the end.

jono

[TravelGal]

But if it's true that Tony is Propping up Half the Field for Indy ... I can't see him doing it again ... And come 2007 and the new Champ Car Chassis & Engine drawing interest from some of the IRL teams he may be in for more "Out of Pocket" for Next year !

I think post Indy, If any of these desperation measures come true, the Press turns on him Big Time, and probably some of the teams die ! Then it's just a waiting game ..

Just a guess !!

I agree with the idea. I mean, what's the point of being King of the Hill, if there is no hill left? That's what a sane person would think. I'm saying I'm not so sure Tony has seen that the light at the end of the tunnel is a train coming his way. I mean, why wouldn't he go down with the ship (to mix the transportation metaphors). We've heard rumblings that the rest of the family is already upset at how he's (dare I say) blowing the inheritance. Didn't seem to faze him.

Just let me get to Long Beach!! :cry:

[NismoZ]

I think another (angry?) "post of the year" assumes a lost ChampCar identiy. Assumes a watered down race series. Assumes so many fans and involved stakeholders are wrong. None of those things have to be true. If a unified series were to make use of the IndyCar name in place of ChampCar, I can't for a moment believe you think that is a loss of identity, or even important. It is a smart business move, actually. Some are so filled with hate and spite perhaps they WOULD like to go down with the ship. Not me. Why would a revived and meaningful (and profitable) I500 be so distasteful to you if it becomes a major part of a well-planned merger or unification? Why would the exposure of a unified series on Network TV be a bad thing for openwheel racing here? I'd rather focus on the many more positive things that can ONLY take place in a unified series and not wallow in a 10 yr. old cesspool of hate or revenge. Like RM has said, it's the only rational thing left to do. I believe many of you brave people who would rather maintain separation and continue down the road to demise may think you are proud and strong, when you are only being irrational. That is a very simple stand to take. The road back is difficult and compromise is the only way to get there.

[Chief]

The bandwagon is only as good as the people on it.

You go Grrrl! :thumbup:

[Racing Truth]

Of course Clarke and Mikey are going to be for unification. They're in a crap series with crap cars and crap tracks. Mario has always been for unification, so that's not news. Ford, well, they probably wouldn't mind a little competition.

I don't want unification if it means that Champ Car gives up its identity for the sake of TG, Indy, Honda or the Andretti name. I would watch Champ Car sans Indy for the rest of my life over some watered down unified series.

Oh, and just because the bandwagon is loading doesn't make it right. When the traitors left ChampCar for the IRL, they loaded the bandwagon in favor of the IRL and it didn't help. The bandwagon is only as good as the people on it.

Well, this begs the question: What are you willing to give up? If you think that we're going to get, in the hypothetical event this happens, Champ Car circa 2005, plus Indianapolis, well, you'll be disappointed. As it is, though, IFFF it happens, I think it will be favorable to CC. But CC will not get EVERYTHING it wants, and that's fine by me. That's the art of negotiation.

[KLang]

I believe many of you brave people who would rather maintain separation and continue down the road to demise may think you are proud and strong, when you are only being irrational.

Irrational? I don't think so. It is my choice where I spend my entertainment dollars. FTG will never see one cent from me. If he ends up with some sort of ownership stake in a merged entity I will spend my money and time elsewhere.

For the record, I don't believe any merger talks are even taking place, let alone close to be finished. This same crap comes up every year leading up to the big earl race.

[mueber]

if it becomes a major part of a well-planned merger or unification?

Ay, there's the rub. There are some here who live in the past every bit as much as those three or four regular posters on TrackForum. Here, they have never gotten past the fact that it is Tony George’s racetrack, and he can do anything he wants with it. There, they just can’t believe that any auto racing series should ever be more important than one race held during the entire month of May in a midsized Midwestern city. Both those who say Indianapolis is essential and those who say it is worthless are wrong.

If Indianapolis is the “first among equals” in the way that the Daytona 500 is to NASCAR and Monaco is to Formula One, it will work. If it is the primary reason for the existence of the series, the series will go nowhere whether it is the IRL or Champ Car. My guess is that as long as Tony George is "managing"--you know, to the extent he has any management skills--the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, the idea of the 500 being the “first among equals” will not be possible, and that's a problem that HAS to be addressed in any "merger". Otherwise, the "merger" will just be another step on the road to open wheel oblivion.

[jonovision_man]

Irrational? I don't think so. It is my choice where I spend my entertainment dollars. FTG will never see one cent from me. If he ends up with some sort of ownership stake in a merged entity I will spend my money and time elsewhere.

"Don't cut off your nose to spite your face"

jono

[Andrew Longman]

"Why would a revived and meaningful (and profitable) I500 be so distasteful to you if it becomes a major part of a well-planned merger or unification? "

I think that is the operative part of your well thought out post.

Previously merger too likely meant a few CCWS team and events moving to the IRL. Or it meant some compatable schedule and spec or equivilancy.

The problem with that is it left in place all the flaws that CART was supposed to fix and that the IRL perpetuated. And the leadership on both sides still would not be managing the series with the right motivations in mind. It might stop the squabbling but not do anything to make the series truly successful and worth watching.

Right now I see an alignment of events that lead me to believe that TG is finally being forced from his position, that there is solid business leadership at CCWS, that the economics of an oval centric open wheel series just can't sustain itselt anymore, and that there is hightened motivation and opportunity to settle on a formula that both produces a great product and is cost effective.

I think the smartest scenario is to:

-- Adopt the DP01 and turbo Cosworth as the spec. Let honda play too if it can be a truly managed competition. They should have marketing role, as Ford does now.

-- Add IMS to the CCWS schedule. Get "Indy" in the series title someway because of the name recognition it brings and appease the IRListas (oh stop your groaning)

-- Add a few other IRL events such as the Glen and St Pete if they make economic sense.

-- Add a few IRL ovals to appease the IRListas. (Stop your groaning). This will dramatically add costs for teams, but this should probably be subsidized simply as the cost of smoothing fan feelings. Some ovals also help add to the diversity aspect of the brand and help define what KK means by a North American interpretation of F1. In time if they continue to make sense then keep them. Otherwise drop them for more profitable/less risky events. Given contracts it is probably cheaper to subsidize oval events until contract run out than to pay legal fees to drop it anyway.

-- TG has a co-chair role on a board that is smart and powerful enough to not let him do to many stupid things. Do that by putting smart outside members on the board that know the business of racing, teams, suppliers, media, marketing and promotors and don't give TG enough power so he can control the board and they'll be OK. And TG will see pretty quickly how much more money he can make and he'll go along.

Will that happen. I believe no. I think CCWS will resist doing more than Indy, or ask too much in subsidy. Most likely they will agree on the DP01 and Turbo and compatable schedules for 07 but IRL will do their thing and CCWS theirs.

Once more of the IRL oval contract expire and IRL teams get poorer, given the higher expense of ovals, and CCWS teams get richer, through running IMS, better events overall, and spending less, then I see a full merger in 08.

Either way I predict an announce of some sort of unification as per this at our around Indy. By June the writing will be on the wall for the IRL.

[oddlycalm]

This same crap comes up every year leading up to the big earl race. Exactly right. Until conclusively proven otherwise, my take is that this is simply Pre-May Flatulence v. 10.3 to soon be following by post-May Crushing Reality v. 11.0 that nothing has changed.

While it's easy for anyone close to the sport to see the growing desperation of the EARL teams, sponsors and suppliers, assuming that any of this makes suddenly makes TG rational is suspect reasoning.

So far TG's reaction has been to simply field more than a third of the cars that will make up the grid for race in May himself under one guise or another. So what if that number is half, three quarters or the entire field, does it really matter? What's the difference to him if he fields 11 cars or 33? A few bucks? Some yammering in the racing press that the average person never reads? TG could give a rip what Mikey, Mario, Penske or Honda do let alone what they think.

oc

[NismoZ]

One last shot here, and I swear as much as I love CC now, I want to see things get better. Soon! Bear with me, I have no malice. KLang: Of course you can spend your $$ how and where you want. So can FTG and KK. I'm just saying with a good plan a single series has a much better chance of improving things for all involved. I can't believe you could stay away for long from a series that could be better than either one we have now, even if FTG is involved. Mueber: Why not Indy 1st among equals? It was for a whole lot of years (until the IGS screwed it up.) I had no problem with that. In this case I think we "knowledgeable fans" know TOO much, and a bigger, better 500 could only grow a unified series and and make it instantly credible and more popular. I've often said more popular doesn't MEAN better, (NASCAB!? :eek: ) but it CAN mean better for a new openwheel series. OW needs the casual fans, their money and sponsors and THEIR money. I'm an old guy, but a revived I500 has nothing to do with "Indyitis" for me. It seems essential to recovery, that's all. Andrew: I too have a shopping list of things I'd like to see in a unified series, and it is certainly ChampCar heavy. :) , but FTG participation and an I500 is a no brainer if unity and progress are to occur. I'm not ready to detail all my hopes for a new series but you can be assured both sides bring substance to the plan. I'd rather focus on those than bring up the deal breakers first. Hard to move forward that way. And, oc: You and others here may be 100% correct. It's just May, and it's all BS. but that's no reason we shouldn't discuss it, make contributions and suggestions, as opposed to just blowing it off. We'll leave KK and Anton alone, but we can bother each other? :) OK, back to the one liners.

[nissan gtp]

...
Either way I predict an announce of some sort of unification as per this at our around Indy. By June the writing will be on the wall for the IRL.

I agree with that .... part of the face saving for TF ... not a problem cause it doesn't matter in the end

good post BTW :thumbup:

PS. I can't believe I'm positve about unification :saywhat: but if we get the DP01 and turbos, then I'm in.

[Racing Truth]

1. Irrational? I don't think so. It is my choice where I spend my entertainment dollars. FTG will never see one cent from me. If he ends up with some sort of ownership stake in a merged entity I will spend my money and time elsewhere.

2. For the record, I don't believe any merger talks are even taking place, let alone close to be finished. This same crap comes up every year leading up to the big earl race.

1. As is your choice. I fundamentally disagree with it, and agree w/ jono's sentiment. Furthermore, while I DO NOT doubt your sincerity, I suspect that, IFFFFFFFF this deal happens, many who say this won't stay away forever. We're all race fans after all, right? :cool:

2. For one, this started in February, a tad early for the usual "May routine." Second, look at what is/is NOT coming out of both sides. KK tells everyone to STFU and go away. Visions :gomer: Racing cancels a presser b/c they didn't want any merger questions. If there is nothing to it, this strikes me as bizarre behavior then.
None of this is to suggest that it is anywhere near a done deal, or that it won't, again, fall apart. But something was/hopefully still is up.

[Racing Truth]

One last shot here, and I swear as much as I love CC now, I want to see things get better. Soon! Bear with me, I have no malice. KLang: Of course you can spend your $$ how and where you want. So can FTG and KK. I'm just saying with a good plan a single series has a much better chance of improving things for all involved. I can't believe you could stay away for long from a series that could be better than either one we have now, even if FTG is involved. Mueber: Why not Indy 1st among equals? It was for a whole lot of years (until the IGS screwed it up.) I had no problem with that. In this case I think we "knowledgeable fans" know TOO much, and a bigger, better 500 could only grow a unified series and and make it instantly credible and more popular. I've often said more popular doesn't MEAN better, (NASCAB!? :eek: ) but it CAN mean better for a new openwheel series. OW needs the casual fans, their money and sponsors and THEIR money. I'm an old guy, but a revived I500 has nothing to do with "Indyitis" for me. It seems essential to recovery, that's all. Andrew: I too have a shopping list of things I'd like to see in a unified series, and it is certainly ChampCar heavy. :) , but FTG participation and an I500 is a no brainer if unity and progress are to occur. I'm not ready to detail all my hopes for a new series but you can be assured both sides bring substance to the plan. I'd rather focus on those than bring up the deal breakers first. Hard to move forward that way. And, oc: You and others here may be 100% correct. It's just May, and it's all BS. but that's no reason we shouldn't discuss it, make contributions and suggestions, as opposed to just blowing it off. We'll leave KK and Anton alone, but we can bother each other? :) OK, back to the one liners.

While my eyes hurt from reading that, I agree wholeheartedly.

[cameraman]

a bigger, better 500 could only grow a unified series and and make it instantly credible and more popular.

No it won't. The majority of the Indy 500 fans do not like or watch road or street course races. They hate RA, Long Beach, Portland and just about every other place Champ Car races. They hate races in distant lands like Canada. They want side by side oval racing and nothing else. Worse, they want NASCAB pack racing waiting for the "big one". So they will insist on a dozen ovals and when they run them anywhere but Texas & Michigan, nobody will show up. Indy 500 fans are just that Indy 500 fans. 90% of the people who show up don't give a damn about the rest of the season, they are there for the beer and the party.

You merge the series you will have exactly what the IRL is today.
A crap oval series with a token street & road race or two.

[Racing Truth]

^^^All of which might be true and salient IFFFF there were more than 5,792 open-wheel fans in the country. The I500 is the only thing "casual" fans know, and, if meuber suggests, the 500 is simply "First among equals, it can be a vital part of a unified series. Indeed, if its Indy and 15 other races, that would kill it, but done right, Indy could really help.

To survive, the sport can't JUST appease the current base, simply because that base isn't large enough.

[tllips]

I spoke with a friend today who works for CDW and was at the press conference. He is not a race fan(he's indifferent toward the sport), but said that he was talking to some guys at his work and they thought ChampCar was a minor league to IndyCar racing. He compared it to the Kane County Cougars (Minor A Ball Baseball in the western Chicago Burbs).

I explained that ChampCar is not the minor leagues. But without Mindy, it is hard to get a casual or indifferent fan to relate. His only knowledge of Open Wheel is the 500.

Peace in OW may be able to bring more casual fans to the party.

[nissan gtp]

I spoke with a friend today who works for CDW and was at the press conference. He is not a race fan(he's indifferent toward the sport), but said that he was talking to some guys at his work and they thought ChampCar was a minor league to IndyCar racing. He compared it to the Kane County Cougars (Minor A Ball Baseball in the western Chicago Burbs).

I explained that ChampCar is not the minor leagues. But without Mindy, it is hard to get a casual or indifferent fan to relate. His only knowledge of Open Wheel is the 500.

Peace in OW may be able to bring more casual fans to the party.

I understand, but your friend is an idiot. ;)

time for you to school him :cool:

[cameraman]

Fine.

Adding Indy, Homestead, Michigan, Texas and Fontana to the CCWS schedule would help a lot. It doesn't take an IQ of 160 to figure that one out.

Do that, leaving the current CCWS races intact, and I'm all for it.

As for Richmond, Kansas, Kentucky, Nashville and Chicago, they are all damned boring cookie cutter D-rings. Screw em, who needs to see the exact same D-ring race eight times in a season.

[nissan gtp]

Fine.

Adding Indy, Homestead, Michigan, Texas and Fontana to the CCWS schedule would help a lot. It doesn't take an IQ of 160 to figure that one out.

Do that, leaving the current CCWS races intact, and I'm all for it.

As for Richmond, Kansas, Kentucky, Nashville and Chicago, they are all damned boring cookie cutter D-rings. Screw em, who needs to see the exact same D-ring race eight times in a season.

oh come on, we need Richmond.

It's only 50 miles for me :p

[NismoZ]

I'm thinking boring cookie cutter or not, the deciding factor when/if decision time is reached will be the bottom line. Example: I do not like Chicagoland Speedway, but the area is hungry for a unified race. Mated to a stockcar show I believe it would be profitable and a series winner. Kansas City, too. Sure, dump the losers, on both sides, but not Milwaukee. I think that is an example of how "The Week After Indy" can become meaningful again through unity. I think it silly to demand ALL the CC venues. That's one of those deal breakers I mentioned. Imagine this hypothetical 18 race schedule for starters: 6 of our best, six of their best, and 6 more, 3 road/street and 3 oval with bonus money and points to have a greater chance of determining an overall series champ. Ideally the 18 would be as even a split among road, street, big and small ovals as possible. With common specs NOW you're talking about a true driver's championship. If that idea was adopted I see an absolute MAX of 9 ovals (the old 50% offer) and while I believe that to be too many that could only happen if The League gave up on St. Pete, Infineon and The Glen and I don't see that happening. More likely there would be 6 ovals, 33%, and for me that is totally a deal MAKER! I loved Milwaukee. I loved Road America, I'd be in race fan heaven.

[Winston Wolfe]

I'm thinking boring cookie cutter or not, the deciding factor when/if decision time is reached will be the bottom line. Example: I do not like Chicagoland Speedway, but the area is hungry for a unified race. Mated to a stockcar show I believe it would be profitable and a series winner. Kansas City, too. Sure, dump the losers, on both sides, but not Milwaukee. .

(Italics) Aint gonna happen. France family wants no competition, and wont allow their sleds to be upstaged by some danged furrin Indy style cars going around the same track 40mph faster on the exact same weekend.

But then again, I suppose this whole reunification thing is such a pipe dream anyway.... sure, why not ? :shakehead

[NismoZ]

Actually I wasn't thinking 'Cup...maybe ARCA or Busch or NASTRUX or something. As far as the "It'll never happen" comment? C'mon, something HAS to happen. I'd much rather speculate on what can be done to improve the situation than depress myself over the way things have been for so long now.

[TravelGal]

As far as the "It'll never happen" comment? C'mon, something HAS to happen. I'd much rather speculate on what can be done to improve the situation than depress myself over the way things have been for so long now.

This is a great thread so I'm going to pose the question that has been in my brain for several months. WHY does something HAVE to happen? Everyone says that. It's the accepted mantra.

Bear with me a second. The people posting in this thread have my greatest admiration as intelligent people and, coincidentally, fans of the same sport I love. So I want to know why, from the Champ Car perspective, given the dramatic progress that has been made in the last two years since bankruptcy, the over the top acceptance of the 2006 (THIS YEAR'S) Atlantic series, the enthusiastic reception for the 2007 car, the better TV package, the increased race venues, the strengthening of the sponsorships of the races (okay, not the teams themselves this year, I'll give you that), WHY does something HAVE to happen where we give away ANY percentage of control over our future?

Indy, is an answer. I'll accept that one. The points already made in this thread are good ones, on both sides.

Any other answers? I hate to sound like he-who-must-not-be-named but I am pretty darn optimistic about the way things are going. We're building from the bottom up, which shows results next year and the next. No? If not, why not?

I do mean this as a serious question. It seems to that everyone says, as Nismo, things have been this way for so long. That looks at it as one continuum from 1996 to 2006. It's not. It crapped out in 1994. "Things" have only been "this way" since then. And they seem pretty good, given the circumstances we started with.

Pollyanna, over and out.

[Spicoli]

This is a great thread so I'm going to pose the question that has been in my brain for several months. WHY does something HAVE to happen? Everyone says that. It's the accepted mantra.

Bear with me a second. The people posting in this thread have my greatest admiration as intelligent people and, coincidentally, fans of the same sport I love. So I want to know why, from the Champ Car perspective, given the dramatic progress that has been made in the last two years since bankruptcy, the over the top acceptance of the 2006 (THIS YEAR'S) Atlantic series, the enthusiastic reception for the 2007 car, the better TV package, the increased race venues, the strengthening of the sponsorships of the races (okay, not the teams themselves this year, I'll give you that), WHY does something HAVE to happen where we give away ANY percentage of control over our future?

Indy, is an answer. I'll accept that one. The points already made in this thread are good ones, on both sides.

Any other answers? I hate to sound like he-who-must-not-be-named but I am pretty darn optimistic about the way things are going. We're building from the bottom up, which shows results next year and the next. No? If not, why not?

I do mean this as a serious question. It seems to that everyone says, as Nismo, things have been this way for so long. That looks at it as one continuum from 1996 to 2006. It's not. It crapped out in 1994. "Things" have only been "this way" since then. And they seem pretty good, given the circumstances we started with.

Pollyanna, over and out.


There needs to be one series so the final result can get healthy monetarily. CCWS and IndyCar are BOTH on $$$ life support. No one cares anymore. People are tired of fighting, and teams can't get sponsors. Ask PT the difference between 1994 and 2004. Jobs are scarce and not secure. Nobody knows who is going to do what for any given day forward. Walk through your local sports bar on a Sunday when IRL or CCWS is racing. Just try to kind somone even paying attention to it. Racing costs major bucks at this level, and why the F would you soponsor something that has ZERO interest to the average fan. Its confusing to have 2 series, and Paycheck Johnny does not have the interest or time to follow all the CRAP that has been going on since 1996. They moved on to NASCAR where it's a guy named Junior in a Chevy with Bud on the hood. Pretty ****ing simple to follow. Now try to get him interested in a guy named Justin in a Lola with CDW on his car. See the problem?

The positive press alone - on the unification - would be THE biggest racing story of the year.

But this is the time of year where everyone is sucking Tony's wang and hoping for a handout. MAYBE when he's shelled out so much ****ing money by the end of May, he gets the clue that this is just stupid to keep going on like this. :shakehead

But then again, maybe not. :(

[NismoZ]

Yep, and because this is a ChampCar friendly forum many here are in denial as to how much "support" KK also regularly provides. He has freely admitted he "could keep on spending like this forever" but that doesn't mean he wants to or will. I believe he and his new "friend" have something in common and that could well be an aversion to hemorraging cash when they both know there is a way to stop it. Better late than TOO late. If it works both can still play race series owner and Anton can watch his REAL family business begin to prosper again. Like "Truthie" has said, if you don't like that? Too bad. Go ahead and buy those shifter karts and have a ball!

[NismoZ]

PS-Like most of you, though I think allowing the IGS anything as high as 50% ownership would be dangerous. I know nothing of corporate law but a careful and fair division might be {22.67, 22.67, 5.66} and 49.0. Kinda scary if the 49 could buy out the 5.66 and start to dictate! But if one of the 3 can't sell without the permission of the other two? I don't know. My favorite post in all those pages (SPEED) was a reply to, "It's all been turned over to the lawyers to complete the details and paperwork"...That ought to take 2-3 years! :D

[TravelGal]

Always good points Nismo. We agree that KK is looking for a graceful exit, whatever the reason, and in his own time. Surely it has occurred to him that he's not keeping this gig forever. Also agreed on the 2-3 years laugh. But, if it is as you say, we dont have that long.

Good point Spicoli that the unification story would be huge. Had not really thought of that. Sadly, your other point is just as important: it's "confusing to have two." What is this world coming to? To me, it's no more confusing than having CCWS and NASCAR. One I watch, the other I don't.

But, if it was confusing before, this year both OW series have GIRLS. Lordy, lordy. Now that IS confusing. Guess we better hurry and get one series after all.

Seriously dudes, thanks for taking the time to write in words of one syllable. I like those.

[KLang]

WHY does something HAVE to happen? Everyone says that. It's the accepted mantra.


Not everyone. ;)

Several thoughts:

The earl has had Indy since the split and seems to be in pretty poor shape if only half the rumors are true. Why would having Indy on the Champ Car schedule be any different?

Assuming some accomidation/merger/whatever happens, what is to stop FTG from pulling the same crap somewhere down the road?

IMO Champ Car needs to stay the course, figure out a way to make the series work without Indy. This is only year three of the five year plan. What is that plan? Don't know. If the invigorated Atlantics is any indication, I'd like to see what is next. :cool:

And I still think there are no actual talks going on. Both sides have said so.

[Andrew Longman]

KK may be in year 3 of a 5 year plan, but just what is that plan?

I think he had/has a near term and long term game that first focused on gaining control of the critical variables to rationally manage the business, control costs, and put in place a sustainable business model. Given what that was likely to cost, I think KK was telling the truth when he said he could afford to do that indefinitely.

But doing it indefinitely was not his goal, his goal was to use that spending as both strategic and operational investment. Operationally, he wanted first to make sure teams, events and assets continued to be around then wanted to make sure that sufficient value was being created, or would be created to start to begin a positive cashflow for all involved. They're not there year, but without Indy that will like happen in the next year or so. (but that's just my guess).

Strategically, having put that in place (or at least the inevitability of it), CCWS does not need IMS. They hold nothing over them and are not vulnerable to they're threats. TG may have a hammer, but CCWS is no longer a nail. That's pretty much where I see CCWS today. CCWS may not be totally healthy, but they are trending well and it is easy to see how it will work out.

This is critical, because once the series no long needs TG, IMS, Honda, RP, CG, or any of the usual suspects, they can deal with them on even terms. More importantly, none of them can play some parties off the other for control or basic survival.

Instead, any discussion will be about the business merits of collaborating, merging, or whatever they choose to do, as it should be.

On those terms, CCWS runnning IMS would be a huge upside in terms of sponsor exposure and team value. If any other IRL events work similarly, so be it. If IRL teams see merit in buying CCWS equipment, so be it.

If TG has a percentage of it to make it work, so be it too. IF (and that the big IF), all this is put in place correctly, as KK/GF have started, then too much will be right and obvious for even TG to screw up (OK big IF).

But I think that was always KK end plan. To manuver CCWS into a position to make the IRL and IMS irrelevant to CCWS while at the same time using that fact to get CCWS to the I500 because anyone can see that's the way for the series and teams to bring maximum value.

[Racing Truth]

There needs to be one series so the final result can get healthy monetarily. CCWS and IndyCar are BOTH on $$$ life support. No one cares anymore. People are tired of fighting, and teams can't get sponsors. Ask PT the difference between 1994 and 2004. Jobs are scarce and not secure. Nobody knows who is going to do what for any given day forward. Walk through your local sports bar on a Sunday when IRL or CCWS is racing. Just try to kind somone even paying attention to it. Racing costs major bucks at this level, and why the F would you soponsor something that has ZERO interest to the average fan. Its confusing to have 2 series, and Paycheck Johnny does not have the interest or time to follow all the CRAP that has been going on since 1996. They moved on to NASCAR where it's a guy named Junior in a Chevy with Bud on the hood. Pretty ****ing simple to follow. Now try to get him interested in a guy named Justin in a Lola with CDW on his car. See the problem?

The positive press alone - on the unification - would be THE biggest racing story of the year.

But this is the time of year where everyone is sucking Tony's wang and hoping for a handout. MAYBE when he's shelled out so much ****ing money by the end of May, he gets the clue that this is just stupid to keep going on like this. :shakehead

But then again, maybe not. :(

I don't think this can be repeated often enough. I agree, thanks to KK, Champ Car is in a superior position, relative to the IRL, but here again, we run into what I call TDS, Tallest Dwarf Syndrome. Compared to, well, virtually any other N. American sport, CC is just slightly less irrelevant than the IRL. In short, being better than IRL is, essentially, meaningless. Both are irrelevant in this country.

From a logical POV, a merger brings a) decent press, b) an end to confusion, and c) everyone pulling in one direction. Plus, it gives CC the 500.

From a gut/emotional POV, I'm tired of fighting this stupidity. I'm tired of rehashing 1996, 25/8, PT/Helio, and all of the utter nonsense of the last 10 yrs.

Could we finally, FINALLY, just get back to racing? Is that asking too much? :(

[Racing Truth]

I don't know. My favorite post in all those pages (SPEED) was a reply to, "It's all been turned over to the lawyers to complete the details and paperwork"...That ought to take 2-3 years! :D

Geebus. At least that long. :saywhat: ;)

[Spicoli]

I don't think this can be repeated often enough. I agree, thanks to KK, Champ Car is in a superior position, relative to the IRL, but here again, we run into what I call TDS, Tallest Dwarf Syndrome. Compared to, well, virtually any other N. American sport, CC is just slightly less irrelevant than the IRL. In short, being better than IRL is, essentially, meaningless. Both are irrelevant in this country.

From a logical POV, a merger brings a) decent press, b) an end to confusion, and c) everyone pulling in one direction. Plus, it gives CC the 500.

From a gut/emotional POV, I'm tired of fighting this stupidity. I'm tired of rehashing 1996, 25/8, PT/Helio, and all of the utter nonsense of the last 10 yrs.

Could we finally, FINALLY, just get back to racing? Is that asking too much? :(

Zackly. Although I will poop on TGs lawn if he ever pulls that crap again like he did in 02.

bu then again, maybe he's a poop collector. :shakehead

[pchall]

Fine.

Adding Indy, Homestead, Michigan, Texas and Fontana to the CCWS schedule would help a lot. It doesn't take an IQ of 160 to figure that one out.

Do that, leaving the current CCWS races intact, and I'm all for it.


Homestead is now 20 degrees and progressive banking and LVMS gets the same treatment this summer. Formula cars will never race in those places again. Texas is even steeper. Michigan and Fontana haven't been "fixed" ISC yet, but that day will come. :rolleyes:

[oddlycalm]

I think that was always KK end plan. To manuver CCWS into a position to make the IRL and IMS irrelevant to CCWS while at the same time using that fact to get CCWS to the I500 because anyone can see that's the way for the series and teams to bring maximum value. Right, as is the rest of your post. You have correctly differentiated the strategy from the tactics, something that often gets confused. Strategically, they have positioned CCWS to do exactly what you indicated and put their business beyond TG's reach and on a sustainable financial footing for slow sustained growth. Compared to in the grave, that's a huge accomplishment.

Their latest tactic has been to form a personal relationship with TG. The reason you do this in business is that worst case it is harder for people to attack people they know and best case you find enough common ground to do business together. Starting with common interests is normal, in this case skiing and wine. In the end all you can do is to lay the groundwork and form the relationships. In the end if the competitor is a real idiot and well funded all you can do is apply more pressure and wait them out.

In this case they are dealing with a world class idiot who doesn't seem to be embarrassed at owning more than 1/3 of the grid in his own race which is why we are seeing the same kind of March flatulence in the racing media as we have for the last decade. By early May the gas buildup from reunification talk will become combustible.

oc

[Wabbit]

Here's a silly thought...

What if Tony bought the chassis for Champcar teams to race at Indy this year as part of the "agreement".

[Spicoli]

Here's a silly thought...

What if Tony bought the chassis for Champcar teams to race at Indy this year as part of the "agreement".

:eek:

Hadn't thought of that. but, we only have 10 announced driver so far anyway, so WGAF. :gomer:

Yeah, that's it!

[TravelGal]

Right, as is the rest of your post. You have correctly differentiated the strategy from the tactics, something that often gets confused. Strategically, they have positioned CCWS to do exactly what you indicated and put their business beyond TG's reach and on a sustainable financial footing for slow sustained growth. Compared to in the grave, that's a huge accomplishment.

Their latest tactic has been to form a personal relationship with TG. The reason you do this in business is that worst case it is harder for people to attack people they know and best case you find enough common ground to do business together. Starting with common interests is normal, in this case skiing and wine. In the end all you can do is to lay the groundwork and form the relationships. In the end if the competitor is a real idiot and well funded all you can do is apply more pressure and wait them out.

In this case they are dealing with a world class idiot who doesn't seem to be embarrassed at owning more than 1/3 of the grid in his own race which is why we are seeing the same kind of March flatulence in the racing media as we have for the last decade. By early May the gas buildup from reunification talk will become combustible.

oc


ALWAYS love your posts OC. It is a business and actual business techniques are being applied for the first time from our side. IMHO, that is why people have such a hard time grasping what's going on. They still think it's a bunch of dopes running around. Right now, the closest to that is the "world class idiot."

Last sentence is just one more reason to skip the 500 this year. Fire danger.

[Racing Truth]

Here's a silly thought...

What if Tony bought the chassis for Champcar teams to race at Indy this year as part of the "agreement".

I had thought about that too, but (and we're assuming a deal, BIG IFFFFF) realistically, no way. Main thing is the Champ Car schedule all but precludes it (Houston and Monterrey for both qual weekends).

And honestly, you think something like THIS could be kept secret? :eek:

[Racing Truth]

Always good points Nismo. We agree that KK is looking for a graceful exit, whatever the reason, and in his own time. Surely it has occurred to him that he's not keeping this gig forever. Also agreed on the 2-3 years laugh. But, if it is as you say, we dont have that long.

Good point Spicoli that the unification story would be huge. Had not really thought of that. Sadly, your other point is just as important: it's "confusing to have two." What is this world coming to? To me, it's no more confusing than having CCWS and NASCAR. One I watch, the other I don't.

But, if it was confusing before, this year both OW series have GIRLS. Lordy, lordy. Now that IS confusing. Guess we better hurry and get one series after all.

Seriously dudes, thanks for taking the time to write in words of one syllable. I like those.

Well, realistically, if your not a gearhead diehard, then IRL and CCWS look very similar (at best, two versions of the same thing). Any idiot could see the fundamental differences between CCWS (OW as a whole) and NASCAR. Maybe it shouldn't be that hard to differentiate, but most people don't.

[harryp]

To people who don't know much about racing, the Indy 500 is still the Indy 500, and CCWS cars look an awful lot like IRL cars.



If there is going to be reunification under Tony's rules, maybe it is time to become a NASCAR fan.....

[mueber]

maybe it is time to become a NASCAR fan.....

Thousands already have done that. No merger will, in and of itself, correct that problem. Although I think a merger is inevitable, I really don't think it will be successful unless open wheel develops a strategy for creating new fans. Merger or no merger that should be Champ Car's focus, now and forever.

[Racing Truth]

To people who don't know much about racing, the Indy 500 is still the Indy 500, and CCWS cars look an awful lot like IRL cars.



If there is going to be reunification under Tony's rules, maybe it is time to become a NASCAR fan.....

Yes to the 1st part. From everything out there, I don't think it will be under TG's rules. If it is, that's a dealbreaker.

[High Sided]

To people who don't know much about racing, the Indy 500 is still the Indy 500, and CCWS cars look an awful lot like IRL cars.



If there is going to be reunification under Tony's rules, maybe it is time to become a NASCAR fan.....


nascar has gotten huge the last ten years while the racing has become a boring joke of a weekly parade. i spent years taping editing nascar races and now besides robby gordon, daytona, and the 2 road races i could care less. robby is the lone wolf and is the only resemblence of the old nascar way's. how'd he do in vegas?

[pferrf1]

Fine.

Adding Indy, Homestead, Michigan, Texas and Fontana to the CCWS schedule would help a lot. It doesn't take an IQ of 160 to figure that one out.

Do that, leaving the current CCWS races intact, and I'm all for it.

As for Richmond, Kansas, Kentucky, Nashville and Chicago, they are all damned boring cookie cutter D-rings. Screw em, who needs to see the exact same D-ring race eight times in a season.

Toally agree. 5-6 ovals. Indy, Texas, Fontana, Michigan, Chicago (TG owns part of hte track. The rest is the CCWS schedule.

[NismoZ]

Milwaukee...the week after. :)

[RaceGrrl]

Milwaukee the week after Indy? No way. You need a road course after Indy.

[oddlycalm]

nascar has gotten huge the last ten years while the racing has become a boring joke of a weekly parade. Exactly right. While the people that race the pointy nose cars have been fighting NASCAR is making hay while the sun shines. Problem is, the racing is a pale version of what it used to be.

People post all they want about 85 well funded professional race teams pulling into town. The proof is in the end result and in the case of NASCAR it's pretty limp.

oc

[Racing Truth]

Milwaukee the week after Indy? No way. You need a road course after Indy.

Ummmmm, why exactly? That's taking the RC/Oval balance thing a bit too far, IMHO. Besides, Milwaukee after Indy is tradition.

[Racing Truth]

Thousands already have done that. No merger will, in and of itself, correct that problem. Although I think a merger is inevitable, I really don't think it will be successful unless open wheel develops a strategy for creating new fans. Merger or no merger that should be Champ Car's focus, now and forever.

This is, of course, correct. A merger doesn't instantly solve the problems. I just am not sure if you can get to those solutions w/o it.

[cameraman]

Ummmmm, why exactly? That's taking the RC/Oval balance thing a bit too far, IMHO. Besides, Milwaukee after Indy is tradition.
the term is sarcasm....

[Dirty Sanchez]

.

[Racing Truth]

the term is sarcasm....

OK, OK, true dat. Sorry Grrl. :o

[G.]

Ummmmm, why exactly? That's taking the RC/Oval balance thing a bit too far, IMHO. Besides, Milwaukee after Indy is tradition.
What's the old movie that the raccar driver says that "We always race at Milwaukee after Indy"? I caught that part of the movie, and swore to watch it next time it's on the tube. Course, I didn't catch the name... :shakehead

[NismoZ]

Plus it's a short tow, cars already set up for ovals, etc. Still have to cost- contain, you know. Also probably the only "short" oval on a combined schedule? It's history that should be preserved and would probably be the best test of oval driver skill. It is much easier to see the difference there.

[racer2c]

What's the old movie that the raccar driver says that "We always race at Milwaukee after Indy"? I caught that part of the movie, and swore to watch it next time it's on the tube. Course, I didn't catch the name... :shakehead

Winning with Paul Newman? was it b&w?

[Rosco]

Ummmmm, why exactly? That's taking the RC/Oval balance thing a bit too far, IMHO. Besides, Milwaukee after Indy is tradition.

Phoenix used to be tradition, now it's history

[Andrew Longman]

I'm willing to give Milwaukee a chance the week after Indy, with all the "stars" from the previous week.

If it can be revived, great. It is among a very few flat ovals left that are actually suited to open wheel racing. Its also not a track where direct comparison to NASCAR will be made. CCWS needs to run tracks that distinguish it's style of racing. History and its configuration distinguish Milwaukee. But if the fans don't buy, then that just sad and it wull have to go.

[NismoZ]

It's not Milwaukee that needs the chance, it is a unified open wheel series. There is a primary reason why Milwaukee is not as popular as it once was but there is good reason to believe it can become that way again. A good plan, diversity of venues, a great on track product (spec) with all the best teams and drivers in the same race! I can't even imagine anything else short of paramutual betting that would lead to quicker success. Hell, let's do that, too. Put $100 on Maroon 2! :gomer:

[ChampCar#3]

Turn back the clock to last year at this time and you'll be reading and hearing about the merging/unification of CC and IRL.
Actually, you probably can do that for every year at this time for the last 8 years and you'll hear/read the same B.S.!

JUST FAST AND EASY PROMOTION FOR THE Indy500~

[Racing Truth]

I'm willing to give Milwaukee a chance the week after Indy, with all the "stars" from the previous week.

If it can be revived, great. It is among a very few flat ovals left that are actually suited to open wheel racing. Its also not a track where direct comparison to NASCAR will be made. CCWS needs to run tracks that distinguish it's style of racing. History and its configuration distinguish Milwaukee. But if the fans don't buy, then that just sad and it wull have to go.

We are indeed getting WAYYYYY ahead of ourselves even contemplating this, but what the h=ll.

Anyway, how long are you willing to give Milwaukee? Also, the PTB have to be careful not to "blame" the fans. The fans have been responding to the bull of the last 10 yrs., and shockingly enough, they haven't enjoyed it. My point is a) give it time, b) give a product fans will want to see, and c) just be careful not to make EVERY decision a cold, financial one.

[cameraman]

You have to wonder, if TG was planning on merging the IRL with CCWS why on earth would he be working hard to add yet another street circus in San Antonio? One of the problems with a merger would be too many races and with CCWS running in Houston and the IRL at Texas MS why would you want to sign a multiyear contract with a third Texas city?

Makes you think that any kind of merger is a long, long way down the road.

[pferrf1]

If this thing is going to happen, for 2007, something will be done relatively soon.

I don't thnik that many of the race contracts will be a stumbling block...they are all likely to have plenty of outs, or be able to be bought out.

Also, either party woul dbe fools to stop working on their respective futures until the day a deal is agreed to, approved and consummated.

If anyone wants an example of why to not stop in the face of a merger, look at what happened when Staples and Office Depot tried to merge.

[tllips]

I'll bite.

What happened when Office Depot and Staples tried to merge?? :confused:

[Racing Truth]

If this thing is going to happen, for 2007, something will be done relatively soon.

I don't thnik that many of the race contracts will be a stumbling block...they are all likely to have plenty of outs, or be able to be bought out.

Also, either party woul dbe fools to stop working on their respective futures until the day a deal is agreed to, approved and consummated.

If anyone wants an example of why to not stop in the face of a merger, look at what happened when Staples and Office Depot tried to merge.

Don't know about Office Depot and Staples (as in, I have no info on the subject), but the rest of your post strikes me as sensible.

And who's to say a hypothetical San Antonio venue couldn't be incorporated into a hypothetical unified series, hypothetically speaking? :gomer:

[harryp]

People post all they want about 85 well funded professional race teams pulling into town. The proof is in the end result and in the case of NASCAR it's pretty limp.

While I think you're right, look at the TV contract they have. NASCAR is a cash cow, and sponsers are waiting in line to get a chance to play.

[Rocketdoc]

I have to agree with Klang, but I really think that I began that opinion a little over ten years ago.

I won't put one dollar in Tony George's pocket.

If that means walking away from open wheeled racing, so be it.

Mindy has been despoiled, and it's now in my past.

I'm happy with ALMS, and to a lesser extent, the France's poser series, Datona Prototypes, or whatever they're called.

I'll no doubt watch the 'bastard child' series on occasion, but my interests will focus on ALMS and the World Challege series.

[G.]

Winning with Paul Newman? was it b&w?That's it! Thanks!

[pchall]

And who's to say a hypothetical San Antonio venue couldn't be incorporated into a hypothetical unified series, hypothetically speaking? :gomer:

First the pols from San Antonio need to sign at the X for a 2007 race. How likely is that when they show up at St. Pete and see a repeat of last year's underattended mess?